Difficulty after 1.1 - Game is still too easy

[Shadenuat]

Ultimately it's hard to disagree with this - if it's a party based game, then hardest difficulties shouldn't be beaten by anything but full, competent party of characters with builds supporting each other. Unless you skip ton of fights and just use bugs and exploits.

 

Well it's the only challenge in the game

But now you have to avoid the fight and some others i guess

 

Skipping fights you can't win is your idea of a challenge? Ahahah.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Shadenuat

[mrscojangles]

Well it's the only challenge in the game. Party-Play is to easy and not worth my time nor do i like to micro all members all the time. Yes there is a AI system, but i don't want to use it. With one character, the gameplay is way smoother.

 

And that's fine, I have no issue with people playing solo or whatever they want to do. But the fact is, it's a tiny percentage of the game base that even plays POTD and then it is a tiny fraction of that who plays it solo. At the end of the day it's not reasonable to expect the devs to be balancing the game in any way for the .01% of their base who will ever do a solo potd play through. It's cool that there are people doing it, and I'm glad people are finding all sorts of ways to enjoy the game, but the game is never going to be balanced around that in any way, shape, or form.

[PizzaSHARK]

Ultimately it's hard to disagree with this - if it's a party based game, then hardest difficulties shouldn't be beaten by anything but full, competent party of characters with builds supporting each other. Unless you skip ton of fights and just use bugs and exploits.

 

Well it's the only challenge in the game

But now you have to avoid the fight and some others i guess

 

Skipping fights you can't win is your idea of a challenge? Ahahah.

 

I mean, that's how tabletop is.  A party that doesn't decide "lol **** that" or "wow we're getting beat, it's time to gfto" will often end up TPK'd even with a fairly lenient DM that's willing to fudge rolls or bend the rules in their favor.

[Heijoushin]

*shrugs* I think the difficult has improved since 1.1. Like that drake in middle of the dig site near Port Maje; I wasn't expecting that and got clobbered the first time.

 

Not saying every fight is super challenging, but 1.1 has its moments.

[Erik Dirk]

I wouldn't say a full party should be necessary for the 0.01% of hardest-core gamers, but demanding that the very hardest difficulty cater to your wish to be able to finish with a very harsh, self imposed handicap that goes against the original premise of the game, is more than a tad petulant (Not saying this is necessarily so in your case but there were a few of these in POE1).

A "3 Musketeers" achievement would be a much better ultimate hardcore difficulty for the devs to aim for.

[Archaven]

the problem that i see it obsidian is taking the wrong approach. they think nerfing, removing abilties/features equals harder game. making swift flurry melee only limits build diversity. instead of making game epic like tuning encounters, they go the path where they make you handicap with unfair fights during EARLY of the game where you have no gear, no level and low accuracy they called it difficulty. i would like to see epic fights where even with a powerful party that you can fight very hard encounters. not this nerf flurry, nerf charge, nerf cleave, nerf frostseeker, nert all cool items/weapons, nerf the shiat out of the game. 

 

if they have reworked the encounters with enemies have higher hitpoints, damage resists, mixing elite units in the enemy composition, smarter AI i assure you that your powerful builds will see yourself palm sweating. but no... obsidian definition of difficulty is take away build options, flexibility, overnerf it and then maybe gradually adding back some "sweets" if folks complained too much.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Archaven

[Tigranes]

1.1 changes to POTD were sorely needed and a good first step. But they need a lot more - the difficulty was just in a totally miserable state at release in a number of ways.

 

What bothers me is that so many of the systemic issues were identically problematic in POE1. In both P1 & Deadfire, you gain levels too fast, and because levels give you so much accuracy/defences, you start mowing through many enemies. At least P1 had landmark moments like the dragons to look forward to, and White March also did a lot to provide meaningful higher level challenges. Deadfire doesn't.

 

For people talking about Gorecci Street and Port Maje, 1.1 provides a decent challenge at early levels, just like P1 did at Temple of Eothas, for example. But once you get to ~lv12 where you have some decent gear and the key abilities, it's over.

 

For people saying 'how hard should it be?' POTD should have seasoned RPG players using a full party and the full range of resources available to them - without cheesing, kiting, cheating, etc. For everyone else who does not enjoy that, there are four other difficulty levels, no problem.

 

I don't expect Obsidian to spend huge resources on complex solutions for POTD, though; that only serves a tiny fraction of their player base, so let's be realistic. But it would sure be nice if you could find enemies that actually use higher level spells/abilities against you, more enemies with hard immunities, more enemies that are actually designed for level 15+ parties.

[PizzaSHARK]

1.1 changes to POTD were sorely needed and a good first step. But they need a lot more - the difficulty was just in a totally miserable state at release in a number of ways.

 

What bothers me is that so many of the systemic issues were identically problematic in POE1. In both P1 & Deadfire, you gain levels too fast, and because levels give you so much accuracy/defences, you start mowing through many enemies. At least P1 had landmark moments like the dragons to look forward to, and White March also did a lot to provide meaningful higher level challenges. Deadfire doesn't.

 

For people talking about Gorecci Street and Port Maje, 1.1 provides a decent challenge at early levels, just like P1 did at Temple of Eothas, for example. But once you get to ~lv12 where you have some decent gear and the key abilities, it's over.

 

For people saying 'how hard should it be?' POTD should have seasoned RPG players using a full party and the full range of resources available to them - without cheesing, kiting, cheating, etc. For everyone else who does not enjoy that, there are four other difficulty levels, no problem.

 

I don't expect Obsidian to spend huge resources on complex solutions for POTD, though; that only serves a tiny fraction of their player base, so let's be realistic. But it would sure be nice if you could find enemies that actually use higher level spells/abilities against you, more enemies with hard immunities, more enemies that are actually designed for level 15+ parties.

 

It seems to be an Obsidian thing.  Pillars was undeniably hardest in the early stages of the game, Tyranny peaked at the end of Act 1 and was downhill from there, and Deadfire is little different.  Maybe the majority of their effort is on the early stages of the game?

[Myztik]

 

What type of character can solo 8 enemies

You don't have to fight them all at once. As for elaborating, there's more text to thread than the thread title.

 

How do you not fight them all at once?

[OrpheusM]

 

What type of character can solo 8 enemies

You don't have to fight them all at once. As for elaborating, there's more text to thread than the thread title.

 

 

 

I see. What about the drake fight at the digsite entrance, can you solo that also? Or you found that easy with 3 player party at lvl 2-5 in PotD and all upwards scaling?

 

Not being passive aggressive btw, genuinely interested because people talk like you have to barely try when it takes me hours of reloading only to end up disabling scaling in the end.

[dunehunter]

The enemies are tougher in new patch, but they still cannot do enough damage to kill your tank. The final boss is a good example of this.

[Gregorovitch]

Attrition based combat is a tedious mechanic. I support Health/Endurance on a per encounter basis, but the POE1 rest system was just a chore.

 

 

I do not want to be dismissive of your view on this. Many people share it and express it I know. I recall a line from the Steam board that sums it up nicely for me:

 

"Casting spells is a lot more fun thatn hoarding them"

 

I accept that this arguement is not easily dismissed.

 

What I do think though is those who hold this view also believe that the dificulty problems with this game and Tyranny can be fixed by better balancing, better AI etc. They are unwilling to accept that this mayu not be so and that relaxing resting mechanics and shifting to per-encounter casting may intrinsically/automatically reduce difficulty and challenge or make the games feel more one dimesional and bland. This unwillingness tends to be aspirtational rather than based on evidence or analysis. The evidnece suggests otherwise.

 

 

I wouldn't say a full party should be necessary for the 0.01% of hardest-core gamers, but demanding that the very hardest difficulty cater to your wish to be able to finish with a very harsh, self imposed handicap that goes against the original premise of the game, is more than a tad petulant (Not saying this is necessarily so in your case but there were a few of these in POE1).

 

You are absolutely correct that most of the comment against per-encounter etc comes from a relatively small group of elite players. It's not 0.01%, it's about 1-2% based on, for example, the number of players getting a PotD achievement on PoE1.

 

However this is not the whole story:

 

1. The opinions of these elite players have a major impact on the general climate of opinion about a game.

2. Part of the reason why is that many, many players aspire to greater things and want to play harder games better

3. Games that have the "hard as nails" tag do far better than those with the "dumbed down" tag. The latter is a kiss of death.

 

The exception to this are "pretty" games like Skyrim. But as far as isomestric cRPGs and 4X/strategy games go, this genenerally holds.

 

In summary, what people are doing is choosing games that are generally held to be "good" by elite players, which usually means (in the opinion of these elite players) they have "depth" and "challenge". The "Full Monty". The "Real Deal". That's what people want.

 

Examples of this effect are legion: Crusader Kings 2 and Europa Universalis 4, Dark Souls, Cuphead, DOS1/2, Pillars of Eternity, Factorio, Rimworld. These are all million sellers.

 

In contrast Wargaming made a collosal error of judgement with the new Masters of Orion reboot. Thewy thought they could afford to piss off the small but fanatical hard core MoO2 fanbase in persuit of a mass market of new 4X players wating a lighter more glitzy experience. They thought wrong.

 

This effect applies mostly to more "cerebral" genres like cRPG, 4X/strategy, roguelike and platforming. IMO it is why Tyranny didn't make the million seller lists and why Deadfire might not make it either. 

Edited June 10, 2018 by Gregorovitch

[Dorftek]

 

 

What type of character can solo 8 enemies

You don't have to fight them all at once. As for elaborating, there's more text to thread than the thread title.

 

I see. What about the drake fight at the digsite entrance, can you solo that also? Or you found that easy with 3 player party at lvl 2-5 in PotD and all upwards scaling?

 

Not being passive aggressive btw, genuinely interested because people talk like you have to barely try when it takes me hours of reloading only to end up disabling scaling in the end.

I cleared the digsite solo on potd upscaled 1.1 on a lvl 4 Ascendant/Ghostheart. I used sparkcrackers near a gunpowder barrel and then used my necklace of fireballs on it, then I retreated back towards the stairs where there is a barrel right next to the stairs wich creates a chokepoint only allowing the enemies to attack 1 by 1, my ghost pet tanked there while I was shooting and charming their backlines. Took me one reload.

 

If the AI would have known how to run around the barrel into my flank they would have crushed me. But like I said before, the AI is just simply too dumb

[araj123]

Calling BG2 difficult ... alright

 

If you find the game too easy why dont you run with a smaller party like 2 man? Or even solo? Or do you want to have a difficulty that challenges your 5 man mercenary grp that is optimised to infinity and back? Well then ...

[Shadenuat]

How do you not fight them all at once?

I'm surprised people ask really, since I realised it during my first playthrough - you enter locations from the side of which you travel on main map. So if you go to darcosi street from north, you end up in ambush against 8; if you go from location of the port, you end up at the south of location and then stealth & divide&counter are your friends, as well as water that hobbles everyone, not just you. You can ambush dudes near well first without aggroing mage lady and her goons.

 

The drake, it is a difficult fight, but that's why I pointed out that this drake is the most memorable part of new difficulty - just like in Tyranny with prologue fight, nothing really comes closer to it later, because you're underequipped, have no abilities etc.

 

It's a good fight. I pointed exactly that it's a good fight. But it's only 1 fight. And low levels were already hard. It's after levels 8-12 things begin to go back to your unpatched routine.

 

And a random high level enemy added to some encounters (like one redskull flame bat added to bunch of drakes in Ashen Maw), is your example of designer getting a task and that's what he came up with in a patch. That's not a good encounter design, it doesn't change anything.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Shadenuat

[AeonsLegend]

Can you please elaborate how the game is too easy? I couldn't even touch the thugs in Gorecci street.

 

Was playing PotD, with ALL scaling, upwards only, 35 points of beraths blessings spent on stats, +4 lvls and gold.

 

In some attempts my guys would die before touching anything. There were 7 (or 8?) enemies, 1 skull to 3 skulls and i even tried hiring mercs for a full party. I barely touched them and they 2 - 3 shot anyone. I only managed to defeated them by turning scaling off.

 

And people were saying they can solo this? What type of character can solo 8 enemies that are way above his level in the early game? Genuinely curious.

A game is considere too easy if you select normal mode and have the AI win the game for you. Stating it becomes really hard on the hardest difficulty mode is good, but that doesn't mean the game itself is hard. The fact that you have to select level scaling to prevent you from falling asleep during encounters on veteran mode is just dumb.

[baldurs_gate_2]

 

Well it's the only challenge in the game. Party-Play is to easy and not worth my time nor do i like to micro all members all the time. Yes there is a AI system, but i don't want to use it. With one character, the gameplay is way smoother.

 

And that's fine, I have no issue with people playing solo or whatever they want to do. But the fact is, it's a tiny percentage of the game base that even plays POTD and then it is a tiny fraction of that who plays it solo. At the end of the day it's not reasonable to expect the devs to be balancing the game in any way for the .01% of their base who will ever do a solo potd play through. It's cool that there are people doing it, and I'm glad people are finding all sorts of ways to enjoy the game, but the game is never going to be balanced around that in any way, shape, or form.

 

They balanced PoE 1 for solo players as well, otherwise there would no TCS or FCS runs possible. So they should do that for this game as well.

[Wormerine]

They balanced PoE 1 for solo players as well, otherwise there would no TCS or FCS runs possible. So they should do that for this game as well.

The problem was that PoE1 wasn’t properly balances for team play. I also remember Josh saying that they don’t balance the game around solo players.

 

It would be my selfishly motivated opinion, but I would rather have an RPG well balanced for intended sized party (aka. 5 in Deadfire case) rather than poorly balanced RPG to allow you to play however you want. If you are good enough with the system to break it to the point of playing solo - cool, but why damage entire game?

[Takkik]

Definitly improve AI.

 

But I think Deafire introduced another problem with it's per encounter system (even if I like it) : Attrition fights are useless. Even Injuries are useless since it's easy to rest/remove them.

 

One example of weird things happening in deadfire : A fight begin, kill a drake and couple of Xau.. (the kobold thing). Fight end, everything regen, I move 2m and a little kobold was left behind... and 4m in another direction another one. The aggro is one problem, less enemies make the fight easier and less interesting, fighting 2x1 small enemy is pointless.

 

I think they should have designed encounter like in a tactical game, like Critical role fights : 1 encounter/map. You're attacking a fortress, each floor count as an ecounter and the fight only end if you kill everyone, escape, make them surrender etc... and you get a 'short' rest between each floor where you actualy regen your abilities.

 

That introduce more interesting way to play with encounters and AI(scripts). In the case of the fortress, when a fight begin guards will not stay without moving, they will gather to the commotion aera. Some will stay behing to guard specific important aera. Some enemies will try to escape the map and bring back reinforcement from other levels etc... That can introduce far longer fights where attrition is a thing forcing player to escape or using different tactics, moving in the map etc... If the player escape the dungeon, each hours before the player return the enemy will reinforce, heal, be ready for the player. Need to design dungeon in a way the player need to do it in a go and be prepared for it or each time player escape they will be ready for is return (when applicable).

 

 

Even if I enjoy lot of RPG, I would prefer a class less, level less system, based on skills and equipment. Leveling and the power grow that follow is artificial in my opinion and make too much content obsolete (and auto scaling kinda defeat the point of leveling in first place). Smaller increase in power, where the characters progress throught the abilities they unlock and their gear. Less abrupt power curve is easier to balance I think.

[Shadenuat]

Yeah, you don't really lose anything for doing stupid things in combat. As the system goes now, you can use party to gather mobs and fireball them all together with mobs, have 1 dude left standing and win, no problem. It's actually a pretty degenerate gameplay. Only thing that fixes it is Grog, by the way. Which is pretty funny.

 

I don't expect Obsidian to spend huge resources on complex solutions for POTD, though; that only serves a tiny fraction of their player base

I actually find all this deal "difficulty was not a priority" bizarre. You have a party based game where most of content is about combat, and difficulty was "not a priority". If combat difficulty was not a priority, then what was? What is even the point of the game then? It's main gameplay is combat. It's not a project like Numenera where combat, indeed, might not have been a priority.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Shadenuat

[KDubya]

The fundamental problem is the linear aspect of gaining levels and equipment upgrades, especially how they affect accuracy.

 

Accuracy controls everything and the biggest contributor is your level. If you can't hit you can't do anything. They need to either  flatten out the bonuses gained at higher level and the higher grade of equipment  or completely remove the bonuses from leveling.

 

The game is definitely better than it was on release but the basic gameplay system of accuracy gained primarily from levels still trivializes the game.

 

I like the idea floated by Takkik of making an entire level of a dungeon or map classify as one encounter, that'd be great. Probably would need to add in some spells per level but that'd be good anyway.

 

Unfortunately they will not be changing the entire level up system and the way accuracy is tied to it so its going to be either struggle hitting up-leveled enemies or design your squad around accuracy buffs and enemy debuffs that circumvent the disparity in defenses.

[Stephen Unsworth-Mitchell]

To make a game like POE 1 and 2 really work they need change things lot.

 

Having it made so a person can do a single player character run through bad idea as either becomes impossible to do single player run or it just not challenging enough for group.

Just choose or if got have both have check box for person doing single player character run, that tweaks difficulty for said run.

 

Empower just crazy way it is, as just can rest any time without any issues. Empower scales 10x up what ever used and can be used every fight. Resting also increases states from food to and food not challenge get. There not real financial challenge so you can afford every bit equipment. 

 

Level progression should be gradual curve and enemies should scale to that curve. Boss fights dragons etc should be few levels higher then rest. You should always feel challenged but not frustrated. Need keep some attrition like per rest from POE 1 so person can scale difficult for themselves to point. POE 2 has not real attrition system player can use to scale difficulty as per encounter system doesn't play well for it. Can't try lowering little of this make that higher while the progression curve is off, as you need sort that curve out first. playing with this and that will make start game more frustrating while not fixing the cake walk that happens after leaving city in POE 2. 

 

Fights in area really need good planning and placement stop having trash fights. Example if we build pirate stronghold then first think what sort bad guys can we use what fits said theme firstly pirates what else undead pirates etc. Then need define where put fights and each choice need think why here, what advantage would they have been this placement? What difficulty are we catering for how do we want difficult scale as player run through dungeon. 

 

AI needs serious help as it trips over itself, always goes for easy target and can easily be pulled through chock point. Teach AI gang up fast attack on one of a party doesn't need be weakest. Teach it not be stupid chase through choke point. 

 

Magic has to be scaled, yes nice have powerful spells but they should be very special not useable every fight. Per encounter and open world just way to many variables to make every fight really fit right level. Open world never know when person going go  a to b or from a to z.

 

Equipment yes we love finding new equipment but legendary equipment should be very limited.

 

People always want everything but ask really rich person done everything gets bit boring cause there nothing special left for them as got everything. So in games people want lots but don't give all easy or let them use special things all the time as stop things been special, make people work hard get special things or be able use special things.

 

If want build game that's per encounter and open world say it from first game and stick to it, don't change it so much system becomes something totally new. Can't please everyone design it for one set of people and stick to that. Changing systems pushing people out pull in few new, few new might not touch it based on some scared start franchise mid way through.

 

If your going do attrition system then needs to make people pay price for using example per rest needs have chance of been attacked when rest out in wilds. Per rest needs make people pay price for going back to town half way through dungeon each hour away from dungeon it refills said dungeon with bad guys, therefore after number hours said dungeons back to fall up. 

 

Honestly what ever system you have try have things that can be turned on to make it more difficult. I played tyranny and POE 1 so many times would be nice I can turn things up make it more challenge at times. It's really nice be able tweak game to fit your personal level at various times.

 

Personally if I was obsidian I make POE 3 and use POE 3 set how you really want build it per encounter or per rest. Used it to really find way balance scaling and gradual curve of levelling up. I would make POE 3 end watcher story. From that I start again with new story and character set in past or in future and build that franchise using what you learned from this set stories. 

 

I very want see how story gets completed. I be here for POE 3. I also want meet kyros in tyranny see how that works out for my fatebinder. I like see you build new story and for you really make it truly legendary set games that really push story companions and exploration.

 

Honestly want an open world game need do away with levels as we know it and have one fixed level define whole your character at start game, but if do that need reward player in different way and you need make sure story lines and companions are great and amazing.

 

Or

 

Have semi open world where to progress from an area need to complete set objective to progress, that way easier manage level progression and level scaling.

 

I don't dislike POE 1 or 2 or tyranny and not complaining as want you follow my way or nothing. I write in forum because want you build best games possible and I want play them in 20 years time want still remember them because they where special.

[Tigranes]

 

...

 

It seems to be an Obsidian thing.  Pillars was undeniably hardest in the early stages of the game, Tyranny peaked at the end of Act 1 and was downhill from there, and Deadfire is little different.  Maybe the majority of their effort is on the early stages of the game?

 

 

Oh no, it is a CRPG thing. Almost all CRPGs, especially after 2002 or so, share similar systemic problems where after the first 30-50%, the game becomes trivially easy, you have millions of gold, and so on.

 

POE1/2 does a far better job than games like KOTOR, where you really could go for a cup of tea during battles, for example. And many players have come to expect or enjoy this relaxing difficulty; we keep hearing about players who struggle with POE1/2 on Normal, for example.

 

But the whole point of having 5 difficulty settings was to be able to provide difficulty at least on POTD. And the whole point of crowdfunding a project like POE was to provide something a bit more old school than "mash the button and you win!!" trend some recent games have taken.

 

So, while I don't expect big things, I do expect that Obsidian wouldn't make POTD trivially easy on release (which they did), and I do hope that they will go further than what they did with 1.1. 

[ThacoBell]

Yeah, you don't really lose anything for doing stupid things in combat. As the system goes now, you can use party to gather mobs and fireball them all together with mobs, have 1 dude left standing and win, no problem. It's actually a pretty degenerate gameplay. Only thing that fixes it is Grog, by the way. Which is pretty funny.

 

I don't expect Obsidian to spend huge resources on complex solutions for POTD, though; that only serves a tiny fraction of their player base

I actually find all this deal "difficulty was not a priority" bizarre. You have a party based game where most of content is about combat, and difficulty was "not a priority". If combat difficulty was not a priority, then what was? What is even the point of the game then? It's main gameplay is combat. It's not a project like Numenera where combat, indeed, might not have been a priority.

Um, its NOT all about combat. Obsidian deliberatly reduced the amount of combat in this game compared to Pillars1 and then went so far as to include FAR more options for avoiding combat. People are complaining about not getting Dark Souls level of "difficulty" in a game that has been almost entirely tuned around story, character interaction, world interaction, and roleplaying.

[ThacoBell]

 

 

...

 

It seems to be an Obsidian thing.  Pillars was undeniably hardest in the early stages of the game, Tyranny peaked at the end of Act 1 and was downhill from there, and Deadfire is little different.  Maybe the majority of their effort is on the early stages of the game?

 

 

Oh no, it is a CRPG thing. Almost all CRPGs, especially after 2002 or so, share similar systemic problems where after the first 30-50%, the game becomes trivially easy, you have millions of gold, and so on.

 

POE1/2 does a far better job than games like KOTOR, where you really could go for a cup of tea during battles, for example. And many players have come to expect or enjoy this relaxing difficulty; we keep hearing about players who struggle with POE1/2 on Normal, for example.

 

But the whole point of having 5 difficulty settings was to be able to provide difficulty at least on POTD. And the whole point of crowdfunding a project like POE was to provide something a bit more old school than "mash the button and you win!!" trend some recent games have taken.

 

So, while I don't expect big things, I do expect that Obsidian wouldn't make POTD trivially easy on release (which they did), and I do hope that they will go further than what they did with 1.1. 

 

I'd be surprised if 50% of player could beat PotD, I wouldn't call that "trivially easy."