omgFIREBALLS

Whereth the helleth doth one getteth that necketh and that ringeth - from the first list. (Medieval English nerds - I actually googled doth vs. dost for that sentence, before you get angry about the abominations that are the other words)

It's open in act 3. At least the bottom floor is, for the sake of the bounty.

I don't really feel the arguments that you need x will* before it's any use. Of course you need tremendous amounts to be completely safe, but I'm sure you give a significant amount of ****s if your own spells crit instead of grazing, so why not enemy spells? The fight isn't lost just because one brief dominate got through. I think +10 is a notable bonus. I take Bull's Will on almost all my characters at some point. * Second time I read that domination targets deflection, any truth to this?

Didn't you already post this once? Not complaining though, I bookmarked it the first time. I'm guessing it's not PotD but I'm also guessing the strengths and weaknesses would stay the same for PotD anyway, even if they are all buffed by 10 or whatever.

Think I've seen a dozen cases of needing to read http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/lay-versus-lie

If by reflexes you mean the reflex save I gotta mention that that is my fighter's highest save (115 reflex 113 will), with rock bottom dexterity, with 15 or so int and the +10 will talent on top of that. The Weapon and Shield talent just does so much. I think the will save is the most important though as it can be so devastating to have your tank get confused/charmed/dominated. Obviously I'm still very uncaring for attack speed but just the thought of chaining abilities/items faster is a good point for minding your dexterity.

I guess stuff involving shades is scary. I dreaded the first level of the lighthouse with my first PotD/ToI party. I was exhilarated to clear the Temple of Eothas - I didn't get close to that feeling even when completing the game or killing the baddest dragon. But as has been noted, it's easy to get experience, so you tend to outlevel content if you're a completionist. I couldn't really take on every quest and encounter with a level equal to that of the monsters unless I deliberately didn't use my level ups. Still yeah, places with shades. Even if I don't make a point of overleveling them anymore, I still approach them with much caution.

Check http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/77672-undead-raedric-fight-seems-impossible-possible-spoilers/ Especially my post because I'm awesome!

Post #25, then #28 where you agree with an "Exactly", then #48. 148/95/115/113 selfbuffed on my fighter who probably isn't getting better. Plus, given the brief duration of most fights, I could pretty much slap another 20 on everything. How high does a paladin get?

Indulge me. I found fighters superior but that was before I knew that FaC only works for the Watcher. Why are paladins better? Side note: My previous post is a bit from the perspective of "IF YOU USE MY PLAYSTYLE THEN ETC ETC" but I don't think endgame fighter tanks are going to do significant amounts of damage outside contrived situations.

By one man army I mean getting locked up on the individual damage output of the fighter rather than considering how much more he enables everyone else to do by being so sturdy that he can be surrounded by mobs and still take some friendly fire if need be. I just don't find giving up tankiness for damage to be to any degree desirable. It can be affordable, depending on group composition, difficulty setting, encounter, player skill, etc. Certainly my all-out tank is tremendously overkill for many "named" fights even on PotD, but it's not like if he hit 10% harder and 10% faster he'd make any noticeable impact on how fast they go down. When it comes to really tough fights, he needs to be the best tank he can be. That means getting as much attention as possible and surviving it. Speaking of which, that actually is a bit of a case for dexterity, as it would (presumably) help him chain chug potions. Regardless, if I were looking to improve the damage output, I could spend an hour before even looking at the drop-in-the-ocean damage the tank is dealing compared to the glass cannons. In fact, I think I'll go take on the vithrack bounty and tally up the damage done by every party member. In the end, improving your tank's damage output is a luxury. Unless there's some tough fight where monsters simply ignore him, I wouldn't want to make any permanent sacrifices of tankiness in favor of damage output, because it might just bite me in the ass. But the lower the difficulty level and the greater the player's skill, the more affordable the trade is. Stay tuned for damage meterz. edit for damage meterz. 1) Cipher: 937.5 (actually surprised myself how much AoE damage they do at max level now) 2) Druid: 583.1 3) Wizard: 177.9 4) Rogue: 77.0 5) Fighter: 0.7 (not sure when he even got that damage off, he was paralyzed the whole fight) 6) Priest: 0.0 This is PotD for clarification. Now I know the paralysis makes it a half-unfair comparison. Only half though, because as the primary target you gotta expect that CC effects will mess up your efforts to do anything. But still, nobody touched the rogue and she did... 77. She waited a bit for buffs before running in, then got off one shot before the brief AoE festival took care of everything. Hell even the rogue looks pretty sad here, and I doubt you'll contend that your slightly-offensive tank is going to surpass a rogue's damage. I'll tally up numbers from other interesting fights... hell if you have any requests just shoot, but know what I have left is mostly Endless Paths and act 3 content.

I would get you nerfed motherf- I might see the futility of my efforts but perhaps I'd be as likely to flee as to try to run past you. I think it's an absurd idea either way to strive to get hit as a tank. A tank should be good at handling incoming damage and at directing it at him. That the latter part comes trivially unless you're not alone in melee doesn't mean we should give up the former to be nice to the AI. He's still sporting a shield which is the worst weapon setup for damage. He still has no big hitting abilities. I don't see this obsession with making your tank a one man army. He never needs to be one. It's all about how well your party can handle the fights. My cannons can be made of glass when their tank is made of diamond.

I have some sympathy for the minmax distaste, but not for this. Are you saying the enemy is supposed to know he can't hit you? Are the mobs reading the accuracy rolls? I mean you could also argue your rogue shouldn't get too much offensive power. Not talking "at the expense of defense" even, just too much per se. Because then they could oneshot vulnerable enemies like wizards. And they would be stupid to engage you because they will lose off that instakill. This is a thread about optimization and I think three times now it's been posted that you shouldn't get so much deflection that you're unhittable because that's not fair to the AI.

I "play" as fighter - it's always full custom party so who's the Watcher isn't really about favorite class. But the fighter is the one I start with because, sadly, some RPG's will make the protagonist stand in front for certain conversations (like the Skaen high cultist). When these talks lead to battle, you don't want your mage to be standing face to face with danger. This is a much, much smaller problem in PoE than it was in NWN for example, but I also find the Watcher powers are great for tanks, and I've always sided with the knights... and that was before I knew the bonus you got, now my agreement with them is just further incentive to make the Watcher the tank. If it's about the most interesting class then I'd probably say wizard.

This is on my 1st PotD, near the end. A few minor quests here and there + jumping down the rabbit hole is all that's left. The others are also early to get companions meaning I have no OP cipher to deal most of the damage. I won't fire up the game just to check the others, but I know my lowest damage dealer is Durance with 16k something and my highest is either Aloth or my PC. Okay, well I'm mostly looking for the relative damage values, like how much damage did Edér do compared to Hiravias if you have him. And I'm gonna tell you you're obviously doing something wrong if Hiravias isn't 10x Edér Anyway the party I referenced there has just started act 3, not touched the Endless Paths or gone after Aelys but done probably 90% of everything else there is to do in acts 1 and 2. On a party that finished PotD the tank with a pretty similar build did 16k (druid 200k). If I cared to really play every single battle to perfection, the numbers would be even more polarized. Now it's just if it's a trash fight, I paralyze one guy with the cipher (or amp-wave at this point) and everyone autoattacks. I could bother to throw low level spells and I could bother to pop +20 defense on the tank because absolute minmax. I'm also too lazy to fire a gun at the start of a fight with the tank, which indeed would account for some damage that wouldn't cost me anything. Anyhow, for serious fights, my glass cannon setup plays to obliterate. Throw three buffs with the priest, summons out to pick up stray mobs, rogue and cipher going on the important targets while the druid and wizard just cause mayhem. At this point they usually kill stuff so fast, even say the highest level bounties, that I find myself wishing enemies had three times the health just so I could unload more spells upon them. Not out to brag, just saying, the five glass cannons (or four, priest is just glass) do annihilate monsters and the tank doesn't really get much time to swing his weapon. Therefore, his sustained damage isn't important. But I guess the fewer cannons you have, the more relevant the tank's damage becomes. I much enjoy this style though, so my tank is always overkill on defense. If he's going to stand in the middle of everything, my casters can't be blamed if he takes a little friendly fire. :D

And how much did the others do? Have they all been in the party for as long? How far progressed is the save? What difficulty?

And is your Edér such a painbringer that it still wouldn't be sensible for me to ignore him and go for your backline if we fought? My druid's doing ten times my tank's damage and is twenty times squishier. Weapon Focus and a few points in might/dex isn't going to make any player think "Oh jeez, I have to eat a disengagement attack to get to the druid? NO WAY, staying here."

I can't tell you how to enjoy the game I'm just saying it pays off. I would like it if there were some threat system so that tank damage wasn't almost irrelevant, and so that the tank could keep melee safe too.

It's not failsafe but 99%, lol. It's not anywhere near anywhere near anywhere near anywhere near being that problematic. Am I clear enough? I send my tank in alone while I buff up, cast Returning Storm, etc. I also summon stuff - summons alone do enough of a job with the offtanking. Any monster who decides to run past my tank to my backline will be happy to stop if engaged by a summon. Too, I use my cipher to paralyze these brave souls. Then my druid and wizard just unload on the crowd swinging futilely at my tank. Sometimes even hitting him if need be. As for teleporting shades. You can outrange it. Lategame shades obviously aren't a problem but early on I just back the cannons off when I see the purple icon over the shades. Hell, they can even get bored of chasing. These are the damage stats of a PotD party that just reached level 12. Fighter, dedicated tank hatchet4lyfe: 6k Rogue: 40k Priest, mostly buffing: 3k Cipher, CC/utility in hard fights, Mind Blades in easy ones: 30k Druid: 70k Wizard: 34k Like those 6k would become something meaningful on a tincan using sword and board and not sporting any damaging abilities. What's more, like they would be worth the tradeoff when his job is to just soak hits while the cannons unload.

I disagree with all my heart. One of those in front and five glass cannons in the back. I "sacrifice" even more on my fighters.

They're intelligent and eloquent. Except one nutjob, anyway.

Hiravias' table manners.

Right. But what if I were to convince the duc that... well, that the Dozens crybaby is correct. What happens then? 'cause as far as I can tell, it can't get worse than it does when he's merely undecided about it.

A high level party, especially one with a self-hasting wizard, requires extreme amounts of pausing to fully optimize. I have explored the various auto-pause settings, but that doesn't bring flow back to the battles and I eventually find myself thinking "just fire at whatever". I think that between slow mode, hotkeys and multiplayer (each player = one character) there could be some very satisfying battles even on a hypothetical difficulty above PotD. I would enjoy controlling one toon there, with no need to be the Watcher. Actually a cautious dream of mine is to have a game like PoE or an IE game where you can view a replay of your battles. But not with the pausing, not with the clicking, just a hidden HUD (okay perhaps party frames could be visible) and watching everyone duke it out in real-time. All the pausing to optimize your toons brings my mind to chess. Certainly a game of skill, but not one of speed. With multiplayer, it could be both. As inefficient as it might be to spend resources on MP, I'm just voicing my thoughts

As is standard for my five-ranged party, I left those five way back and had my tank step up and do the talking. While they were grazing and missing him, I buffed those guys up and sent them in to slaughter. It still wasn't an easy victory as some slipped past the tank and caused a lot of trouble for my glass cannons. PotD, level 10. Still better than the first time I beat him. Only the tank was alive then and basically just survived while Raedric killed his minions, then himself, with fireballs.