WebShaman

I agree.

If that is by Dyrwood Village (the quest for the Herbalist), then you need to climb up to the nest - should be an interactive part of the map to do this.

What a wierd topic. Even stranger discussion. Seems like Gameplay vs Realism to me. Realistically speaking, whenever one decides to create a fantasy environment where magic is present, then of course one is going to find that magic not only permeates everything, but dominates as well. This is because we all know that instead of having to invest time/physical energy/risk into something, one can just use magic to make said thing easier in all three catagories. In PoE, the environment itself, though nice, is totally laughable. Because magic exists, it would be used to move from one place to another (as instantaneous as possible), lift stuff, build stuff, create stuff, provide a source of energy, etc! Anytime one had the opportunity. Obviously everything magical is under tight constraints SOLEY DUE TO GAMEPLAY ELEMENTS. Which of course does break realistical immersion. It doesn't make any sense WHY magic does not work outside of combat. None whatsoever. Magic does not come from combat itself. It is paramount to saying "one cannot shoot a crossbow/firearm or swing a weapon outside of combat". You pull and pull on the trigger, or the haft of the weapon, but it does not budge. Not to mention that one can scout (stealthwise - too bad one does not have invisibility in this game - another use of magic that would be an obvious one, but somehow is not in the game for Players). Scouting allows for exactly that - obtaining information that one can use to their advantage over those who do not have it (I know they are there, they don't know I am, etc) In a gameplay sense, not allowing magic to be cast outside of combat relieves the Developers of having to plan for this. This applies not only to buffing, but also to travel, and any other mechanism that Developers use to control gameplay. I personally fall into the "allow pre-buffing" crowd. I just prefer to allow it easier by having a mechanism that you decide on the pre-buffs, save, and push a button.

I believe that a new level of difficulty should be introduced : Impossible The m0bs are invincible. You have no gear. And no magic, talents, or abilities can be used. Go! It's harder than any of the IE games were. It has some pacing issues though. Some encounters early on are abnormally difficult due to accuracy/deflection/defense disparities, while the mid-late game starts to get much easier as that disparity lessens. Same could be said for IE games with a few exceptions though - Mind Flayers for example were very difficult for people to deal with unless they knew how to counter them. Which is a great example of how IE games was also way more tedious and preparation based with more encounter pre-knowledge requisite. Having all the right buffs stacked before a fight was very important. Using the right sequence of save/resist lowering spells could make a difficult fight trivial. They tried to avoid that, and I think that was wise and a success. There are some new issues as a result but overall I think many players are just seeing through rose tinted glasses when comparing PoE to BGII/IWD at least. I disagree with "It's harder than..." I play BG:EE and BG2:EE all the time - and the Black Pits are definitely harder (especially BP2). One wrong click and it normally means death, defeat, reload. And there are some optional encounters that are off the wall - Kozah, The Hidden, Twisted Rune, etc. I personally have not run into anything like this in PoE.

I will try to answer both questions. To answer the first question, it is different because one is literally a question of life or death, no matter where you try to go (meaning you cannot escape). This becomes apparent in ToB, when all the Children of Bhaal get eliminated, one way or another except for you, of course. So you really cannot escape your fate. This is different than having to find an answer or go mad thing. First of all, since I have no idea that I am somehow afflicted with anything other than some sort of sickness caused by a bug bite (the very beginning) and somehow that just...goes away by the time I get to Gilded Vale. The Watcher stuff I just find out about through curiosity - there is a glowing corpse hanging from that tree, and I saw it in my dream. Call it morbid curiosity. After the event that occurs, however, who in their right mind would stick around the area (and I don't just mean Gilded Vale here, but the whole area). I don't feel attached to the area (not just Gilded Vale, but everything here) - and I am not talking about me as a Player, I mean my character! He comes from the Islands, is a Death Godlike, was a slave on a Galley that sank. The whole world is my oyster sort of thing. So what is tying him to this place, these events, these people? Nothing. Even those I was a bit indebted to (the Caravan Master, the woman), well, they died. So I finished up the business with the woman's sister to repay my debts, and as a bonus even rescued the cook and got the supplies back for the Inn. There is nothing else holding me to these areas. Unfortunately, there is no way to leave (other than not playing the game further, of course, simulating this). And there is this curse that everyone mentions, the whole baby thing. It is much easier and convient to just go somewhere else where there is no curse. I hope I have answered both questions here. Note that I don't dislike the story or the IP - it is written well, and seems to play well. It just doesn't really speak to me much. Sort of like Planescape (which I detest like the plague). PST was an incredibly well-told story, intricate characters, writing, etc - but the setting...just no.

First of all, a big thanks to Hellraiser789 - it takes real cojonnes to apologize on a public forum. I respect that. No bad feelings here. On to the BG vs PoE stuff. I will admit that I like BG better than BG2 (not mechanically or for the challenge, but for the experience). BG is great! Low level environment, low level magic. Great NPCs of all sorts of flavor. Everyone finds what they are comfortable with. So let us consider the storyline in BG (which, of course, was expanded on in BG2) : you are a Child of Bhaal. You see, when you consider what happened behind the scenes (the PnP version of D&D went to a new version and used the Time of Troubles to explain the changes, one of which was the Children of Bhaal stuff), it is incredible. Take the idea, and run with it. So you are a Child of Bhaal. Of course, you do not know this at the start. You find out during the course of your adventures. It all makes sense, ties together flawlessly. Of course you had no choice in the matter - you were born this way. It is not like you sat at the sidelines and whispered suggestions in the ears of Bhaal or something. And you were born in the Sword Coast region (where the adventure takes place). You led a sheltered existence up until then - in Candlekeep. Later you found out that the Harpers were behind much of this, but that comes much later. A perfect symbiosis of IP Lore into the Storyline. It reeks of greatness. It is much like The One from Highlander - you don't really have a choice. You either deal with it, or you die and give up your essence to one who can better deal with it. Absolutely F?=king fantastic is that at the end of the ordeal/adventrue/journey, you have a CHOICE in how you wish to deal with it all. Accept, deny, whatever (end of ToB). Obsidian likes to railroad you (the Player) into something that you have absolutely no choice about - like the whole Soul thing in NWN2 (and again this soul stuff in PoE - it is getting naseous). So I am a Watcher. Yeah. Why can't I get on the next caravan in the next direction out of this hell-hole of a place? Reminds me alot of the start of the NWN2 OC. What if I don't care about the King of Shadows taking over that part of Faerun? Yeah, skip to the 3rd XP, please. My character's background is a Death-Godlike who started as a slave on a ship from some island group, and got shipwrecked (lone survivor) and heard about being able to get some free land and make a new start at life. I have no ties to the area other than trying to make a fresh start - and after the first couple of experiences, my common sense says get the f&%king hell out of Dodge City, man! The Dwarven Woman/Spirit/Whatever experience totally convinced me (along with that Hanging Tree) that I didn't want to stick around - it is like the Haunted House that says "Geeeeeeet Ooooouuuuut!". Well, I'm gone! Free land or no, what does that get me if I end up a corpse hanging around on the next limb? Let us be serious for a moment - why would ANYONE stick around after this?!? You would have to be really screwball nuts to want to! It would be tantamount to wishing to extend your Tour of Duty in a Warzone! Except that you have not sworn any type of Oath! I took one good, long look at Gilded Vale and that Hanging Tree (and of course the obligatory inquisitionary shake-down from the local authorities) and decided "Screw this! I am sooooo outta here!" Why would anyone in their right mind stay?! Surely there are other "animancers" &Co. that can explain your condition SOMEWHERE ELSE WHERE IT IS SAFER! No promise of a new start is worth having to chance ending up on a limb of that tree! Especially when one considers that with your "condition" as a Watcher, you are sure to be strung up when it becomes known to the locals! I had this same argument with BG2 - especially the Spellhold stuff. Screw Imoen (who I hate personally with a passion) - I am going back to the Sword Coast, Imoen can rot for all I care! But nooooooo, I have to go to Spellhold to "continue" the game! Railroading, anyone!?! Why wasn't there an alternate path here? I skip Spellhold, Irenicus perishes a painful, unfulfilled death due to the curse, and I go immediately into ToB. Or he comes after me, whatever. And the same goes for PoE - there is NO DRIVING REASON TO CONTINUE! At least in BG, you had no choice - it was a matter of kill or be killed! Your (spiritual, not maternal in that sense) Brother(s) (and Sisters and Others) were out for your Soul, literally. Saravok tried to have you killed so many times, it was not funny! And you didn't know why! This alone made one attempt to try to at least survive, and for those who do not bow down to bullies and their like, to rise up and defeat them! At least in BG, you knew almost from the gitgo that you have a mean, bad-@$$ opponent that was out for your life, your very soul! In PoE, you really don't know who your opponent is until really much later in the game. You just stumble around in the environment from one experience to the next like some sort of inebriated fool. Inebriated and a fool, because only their like would continue to be abused in such an environment and not decide to go somewhere else! This is basically what really has me not liking the setting and so. I really like the writing - it is top-notch, great Obsidian stuff. Interactions are superb, no doubt about it. The setting is well done, the IP fleshed out. But in bumbling Obsidian fashion, the implimentation just falls flat. And this time they have no excuses. This time they chose which type of engine they would use (no granny here). They created the IP. No nooses on what could be done (or not done). No "We have to send this to Company X QA to get approval first" sort of thing. Massive backing and financing, and we even helped with the de-bugging! To say I am frustrated with the end result, is an understatement! They had everything placed into their hands! Do I enjoy the result? Yes. Of course, I love these types of CRPGs, don't get me wrong here. I enjoy the story, the characters, etc. But it could have been so much more. I mourn for what it could have been, for some of what we glimpsed in the beta, for the direction this game could have gone.

Great post, I agree wholeheartedly. Nice to see such a well formated post formulated with not only solid intelligence but also experience with the game.

Now here is a good post! I agree - the story and writing is better, hands down. I disagree about the setting, but that is subjective and nothing to be concerned about. The characters, however... Something is lacking. I don't know what it is, exactly. Are they too mediocre? Well designed as characters, yes, but not mechanically. Nobody is screaming about any of them like they did with Minsc&Co, or Aribeth from NWN or Morrigan from DA:O. All one hears is "Well, so-and-so is nice/interesting/viable" but no real fan status. I think that is what is missing.

I wholeheartedly agree with the OP - but sadly (as a few of us found out in the beta testing) Obsidian is not interested in changing the stats. We found this out early - we were to beta test for bugs, and not to critique and offer changes to the actual mechanics (that is the impression that I received). There were really some hot debates about this and we did fight the good fight...but it was hopeless. As it is now. Like it or not, this is what PoE is stuck with. When I think of what it COULD have been *sigh*...

Don't know if you are the same Hellrazer from the NWN2 forums (and I don't really care either way). Post count has little to do with much IMHO. I am a Kickstarter and Beta Tester. Done with you now. Wish there was a way to filter posts by posters *sigh* As I mentioned OP, you have my sympathy.

Seriously, do peeps on these forums bother to read their words before posting!?! "I wouldn't have known about bugs if I hadn't read about them...well, except for those that I had and noticed" Wtf? I was a beta tester. There were some serious bugs that did get fixed (disappearing items, for example). But as one posted, the state of the released version does seem to be a late beta version of what it will be after the first patch.

The state of these forums... Reminds me of Obsidian forums of yore. Perhaps in a few weeks when the obvious adolescents are gone (off to the next new, shiny thing), we will be able to have meaningful, deep discusions. OP, you have my sympathy. I really would post more in regards to your topic, but it would just get drowned out by the babble. Suffice it to say, PoE=great story, horrible, let-us-re-invent-the-wheel-and-fail combat system and mechanics. This is no BG&Co. Cue the fanbois miasma.

*sigh* The OP is not saying that the game itself is too hard, but that the encounters are inconsistent in difficulty in the same area. And the OP has a point about conducting a constructive conversation on these forums - cue the fanbois to come in and flood this topic with miasma.

C'mon, it was a great post! Now the poster can apologize unreservedly! "All right, all right, I apologize. I'm really really sorry. I apologize unreservedly. I do. I offer a complete and utter retraction. The imputation was totally without basis in fact, and was in no way fair comment, and was motivated purely by the feeling of entitlement, and I deeply regret any distress that my comments may have caused to any of you or your families, and I hereby undertake not to repeat any such slander at any time in the future." Perfect!

I must say that I don't really enjoy the "new" system much at all. It is mostly confusing, and has a few pump stats (just like D&D). So how is it supposed to be superior AND remind me of BG and Infinity, etc? It isn't, and it doesn't. I was excited with the game, supported it, and I paid for a beta. I have played it multiple times, and I can say that I am...not liking how it is developing. I especially dislike how just about any opinion to the contrary of how the system is done is immediately pounced on and negativety is rained down on it. The Health system winds up making me have to rest if I engage in combat. So -> ergo, avoid combat (since I get no real reward from it, with the exception of fights that advance quests and storyline). However, the maps and encounters make me engage in combat because I can't avoid them. Ridiculous. The stats system has everyone commenting on it, and opinions abound. If it was such a good system, this would not be the case. That an entire game was build around a core system that is just not mature has all the signs of something not nice. I normally like to play mage characters, but in this game, why bother? My spells are only of use in combat. This is just soooo wrong from many a RP perspective, that it just does not make sense! Where are my spells for invisibility (exploration, etc), for taking over the minds of others (charm, domination, etc) that can also be used outside of combat, ability increases, skill increases, transportation, and a whole slew of other things? Right now I only need ranged guns and some sort of alchemy bombs for AoE and I don't need any mage, whatsoever. In fact, since the guns always fire, and if I can create my alchemy bombs easily enough (or purchase them cheaply enough) then it alleviates my need to R-E-S-T due to limited spells. Right now, all I like about the game is the artwork (very nice), the dialogs (well written IMHO and lots of fun) and parts of the story are very nicely done (and are of mature content, which I really like). I also like the Godlike as a race. And, of course, a fully controllable party. What I really don't like, and what is starting to turn me off more and more, is the combat system, the magic system, and basically the "core mechanics" of the game. Since this doesn't seem to be capable of being changed anymore (Sensuki & Co. seem to have a mainline to the Devs and are system pro-gungho), I am beginning to suspect that this game is not going to reach the level of BG:EE + IWD:EE for me. So I am bowing out. I will check back on each progressive beta build to see if anything has changed for the positive (I really was disappointed with the new build, it literally killed my Ranger due to the companion bug not allowing one to transition). Have fun. Bye.

@Sensuki - you can totally avoid pausing while fighting if you use your speed adjustment buttons, you know. Just hit S to slow things down, do your stuff, then hit S again. If you want to speed up, hit D. By doing this, you avoid the pause-go sort of thing. I noticed in your video that you just pause, order, fight, pause, order, fight...very...ummm...well, try the speed buttons, they are better IMHO. What I find better in slo-mo is that I can actually SEE everything happening as it happens, and things like recovery, etc. are not a big obstacle. If you pause, you don't see this happening (as the game is paused, obviously).

Re the doors to the round chamber, if it's the one with the blood pool: - Mechanics skill of 8, or 8 lockpicks, or any combination of the two that add up to 8. - The key is not the one found on the corpse on the ledge outside the ogre cave. That particular key fits the lock in the skull on the ground outside the entrance to the temple dungeon. The key for these doors is found in the dungeon area across the chasm (you need to either get there with a grappling hook, or from the back chamber in the tannery shop) If it's Weymund's chamber you're talking about then it's on one of the three guards outside the chamber door. As noted, lockpicks can be found in the temple dungeon. Grappling hooks can be bought at the weapon merchant, and you can find one in the boat at the west end of Dyrford (pretty much directly west of Rumbold). You need to be in Search mode to find it. The BB Rogue can do it. Again, as noted, the key in the tanner's shop can be found when in Search mode. That key opens the door behind the tanner though (you'll get into a battle if you try to open the door though, so be warned). A note: Webshaman mistyped on the Athletics requirement for the dragon egg. It's not 15+. It should be 5+ I believe. Oh, my bad. Yeah, 5+ it is! Sorry.

The dungeon problem has been solved, so to the egg: One needs a 15+ Athletic and I believe 14+ Con. Your BB Dwarf has what you need (though picturing my BB Dwarf, in heavy armor climbing the cliff and all is stretching things to the point of breaking!!!) Again, the game is just soo messed up in what one would expect (intuitive) - a highly dextrous, light-weight character comes immediately to mind IMHO, not some muscle-bound, heavy armored tank!

I am for special ammo in limited supply (perhaps craftable and/or enchantable?) AND for poisoned weapons (and arrows, etc). After all, there is poison in the game, so why can't we use it?

I want to get back to the original topic posted by @Sensuki But first a question : has anyone tried to talk with the wolves or the beetles with a Druid (assuming that is possible)? Perhaps there is dialog that we are not aware of, first of all. And then I would like to point out something even weirder (and just...immersion breaking) : why are giant spiders of different types co-existing with an Ogre in a cave? Why haven't they long since eaten the Ogre? Why don't the wolves and the beetles attack the deer? Easily the more harmless way to get a quick meal! So this is what I would suggest : One - make it possible to have dialog with the beetles and the wolves (Druid only, probably). The beetles are just hungry, scavaging - give consumable X and get by. The wolves have been displaced from the cave (their territorial habitat and home) and are really upset and angry about it. Give a dialog (Druid) with a mini-quest to clear out cave, and the party also gets valuable information about location, etc of Ogre. Two - replace the spiders in the cave with bandits. The bandits are working together with the Ogre (kind of makes a bit more sense to me). Move the spiders to the second ruins (with the secret, hidden treasure). Perhaps a mini-complex like a lost tomb for the queen spider. Three - make it possible to get consumable X from deer (and make beetles, spiders, wolves hostile vs deer AND each other!). It should be possible for a clever party to lure one group into another (beetles vs wolves! Spiders vs beetles! etc). I think the would probably clear things up rather nicely (as an added bonus, make it possible to have a dialog with the deer to get info about the area, perhaps?) What do you all think?

Look, we all know that combat in PoE will not give experience, right? Right. So, combat is CLEARLY NOT meant to be an important part of the game. I mean, talking to both the straight RPGists and the Power Gamers here, either the story (complete fed ex mission for XP) and the PGers (complete the best possible fed ex mission outcome for most XPs) is going to be the "drive" of the game here, obviously. Items aside (and we still do not know how the recipies for the enchantments are going to be distributed), any and all PGers here will be looking to actually avoid combat UNLESS it actually provides a bonus - and with the lack of XP, only items or plot advancements (that lead to XPs, of course) will excite here. Otherwise, avoidence will become paramount to preserve resources. To the PRG crowd, this will open up opportunities that we have not often seen in most IE games (especially when there is no XP for combat). Both crowds should by now be realizing that the post from ZaZu makes a lot of sense, if you consider it from that viewpoint. What matter combat builds, if combat is really a side-endeavor? I mean, I basically have optimized combat in PoE in a short amount of time now. At least for the Beta. Tanks up front, ranged in the back. Scout way up front, hit the enemy, bring it within range of the Magic Wielders, hit it hard, then engage the ranged weapons, and let whatever is left face the tanks, with buffs from Support Classes. It is child's play, regardless of the difficulty in the PoE beta. Equip firearms for ranged, and you really don't need the Magic Wielders, because although slow (hey, get a Chanter!!!), they hit so hard, nothing survives the Front Line!!!! I have found, that I am more into optimizing my character for DIALOG than for Combat!!!! One gets more XP for completed quests. I hear alot about Might, Int, and so forth - typical combat stats. But one gets XP mostly from completing quests in PoE! I have been toying around with other builds, and it has been far more rewarding for the PGer in me! Just sayin'.

This has got to be one of the most depressing "responses" that I have ever witnessed! I agree 100% with @ZaZu Just soo...man. I don't want to appear negative here, but I really don't know what else I should say. Spot on ZaZu!

Oh, ToEE from Co8!!!!! Yeah! I feel the need, the need for...a giant Alligator Gar! Yep. You know you want a water monster, just lurking under that bridge, waiting...waiting for you to get too close! And Giant Toads! Yeah baby! Swallow, swallow, swallow! What stat are you gonna use now, oh PoE? Huh?

To be honest: I don't understand why the "traditional" stat system was scrapped. You know, that which we all know : Str, Int, Wis, Dex, Con, Chr. Six stats that pretty much are the foundation to every RPG there is, really. Doesn't matter what one calls them, they are pretty much standard, and more importantly, TRIED and TESTED! So why try to re-invent the wheel here? It obviously is not working well, peeps are mostly just confused, and again one has "dump" stats and basically pretty useless stats so far (sure, one needs the dialog stats, but that is about it atm). I've played much now, and I keep coming back to this, especially during character creation, and combat (and dialog, of course). I am not seeing the pay-offs of changing a system that I intimately know and enjoy (D&D). Instead, I am getting the opposite. It is tiresome, cumbersome, and confusing, to say the least! I have no idea why someone decided to change this - but I wish that they hadn't. As such, I am bowing out of discussion based on this part of the game, because I definitely don't like it. It just doesn't seem to be coming anywhere close to what the traditional system offers.

I haven't seen any feedback on the crafting and enchanting parts of the game yet. Is anyone actually using these? I have slowly started to piece some things together, but I am really not sure if the rewards will justify the invested work. Since one cannot outline ingredients with the Tab key, it means pixel hunting the whole area, painstakingly, for recipe ingredients. I thought killing deer would surely give meat, but didn't (no idea why). Then, of course, are the limited spaces in normal inventory. Why would I want to hold onto that Rice for, say, hours (and take up a valued inventory space)? So yeah, throw it into the Stash, right? But then I either have to use up valuable rest resources when in the field, or head back to an Inn in order to access the Rice *sigh* And what, exactly, do I get for my exertions? Some...food. Has some temporary effect? I haven't even looked into enchanting yet - I mean, there is just not enough wealth to get basic stuff, let alone getting to enchanted stuff. Is anyone else messing around with Crafting and Enchanting yet? I think we need a seperate entry for these on the Beta Forum.