IndiraLightfoot

Amentep: Uncanny is the word... Perhaps it reveals the taste of the artist who made the Kaelyn portrait? "Terror Beneath the Sea", I haven't seen that. Thanks for the indirect tip! Heresiarch: In order to pull party-based sneak-bys off you'd need a party of Lightfoots ( :D ), indeed. And as you say, you need to invest quite a bit into it to make it useful. This make stealth PCs a minority, I reckon, so no worries for all combat lovers out there. "Sneak for everone" will be for a brave few. What you call "optional" is just but one aspect of stealth and sneaking. A stealth party could be quite varied and fun. Imagine a ninja-type rogue, a druidic sort of priest, a lightrobed wizard and an agile barbarian with a soft hide armour, etc. It could be fun, adventurous and absurd, just the way I like it. In Fallout New Vegas you get caught all the time and you need to fight your way out. That can be done with parties too. In Dishonored there was one thing I disliked, if I was a stealthy Corvo and got caught, all hell broke lose and that far too quick and dirty, it was almost impossible to get out of the situation (at least when I was a newbie, now I can get out of most situs). P.S. Edit: Lol, I just posted and saw PrimeJunta's reply. That's my point, ideally we should have both.

Me too, Amentep. Balance is an overarching matter, not something that must be there in each and every little objective. Btw, your new avatar/portrait looks almost like a living, breathing version of Kaelyn the Dove, that is my portrait. Cool!

Great breakdown, PrimeJunta! And another good thing with this system is that you can take a shot at one approach sometimes and then regroup and try another. I think there was some honey farm in Skyrim outside Riften, and I was rather low-level, but my character was a sneaky one. So I tried several times to sneak by (re-loading even), but I couldn't find a way in. So, I took the violent approach and shot them all down with my hefty bow. According to Skyrim's system I got xp for sneaking alhough I failed my objectve, and then I got xp too for killing the bandits. In the system proposed here, if I did the same thing (if possible to sneak away wounded and retry) I would only have got combat xp for that objective. Great!

PrimaJunta, you're onto something neat here! By having a fine-layered objective-xp system, the game can cater to and reward quite varying playstyle without letting the xp-system degenerate into farming xp in boring or meaningless repititions: Kill heaps of critters at certain easy spawns, get lots of xp, or open locks and disarm traps till your fingers fall off and get bonanza xp. I've read that Skyrim's and FNV's xp system of learning by doing is getting a pretty bad rep. Perhaps this kind of fine-layered objective xp, let's call it FLOX, can rectify that too, simply by not rewarding perk-progress to simple repetitions. Just shooting an arrow all the time or sneaking around constantly shouldn't give you xp. But shooting arrows in context and quite successfully (some sort of critical hit or perhaps taking down an obstacle) should, the same goes for sneaking past a certain objective, not just playing ninja by yourself in some woods.

Escaping from battles/skirmishes/encounters that do not go very well, it should be possible and even encouraged. I think in Dishonored there was an achievement for running away from more than six enemies or something in a fight. I think PE could give you xp or a perk for such things.

THIS THREAD SUFFERS FROM SOME DEGENERATE POSTING

I must disagree with Luridis on cc and general "control loss" spells - PE should have plenty of these. The reason why control-loss skills and spells stink in MMOs is because you literally lose all control over everything--your own toon. But that is irrelevant to tactical party games: You always have something to do. I have never lost control of my entire party in any IE game; some members will escape a trap or miss it while others make their saving throw. I can still move at least one member and try to save the others or something. The frustration level compared to the MMO genre is completely different in this case. ^This! I agree that a party-based CRPG should have plenty of "freezing"-CC effects. It is not always fun, but usually it makes the party challenge so much sweeter.

I didn't read all the thread, it was too much bickering going on and I am pressed for time. However, as for quest-based xp: Even if we don't get xp per kill when on a murder rampage, I'd love to see Fallout New Vegas' solution: If you kill a certain number of times, or plunder a lot, or use a certain MO lots, then you've earned certain perks that make you better at that playstyle (and it appears regardless of levelling, unlike in Skyrim where perks were locked in trees, almost like MMO or Diablo skill trees). Also, a killing spree can net you nice gold and items, even if you don't get xp.

Soulstone... Take my word for it!

I read this thread just now and realize it means some big and exciting changes to combat, but some of them may make the game flow too generic and "systemy". First and foremost, though I have to make clear that my sentiment is like the quote above. Perhaps the main problem with all the new ways to calculate hits, critical hits and misses or dodges and glances has been voiced by the quotes below: Basically, I far more enjoyed those kind of mechanics than say streamlined DPS-Diablo games or X-Coms rather systematic take on tactics. Don't get me wrong, I love tactics, but first and foremost I'd love to see a computer roleplaying game. So, those drastic fumbles, absurd tactics, and extreme critical hits make for quite different outcomes even if you reloaded. It was like you got many parallel scenarios of one fight in one game. That is not what you get in Diablo 3 or the new X-Com. Ideally, that darn small halfling should be able to crawl pass the barbed devils and sink a critical dart into the sacred third eye of some arch-devil and perhaps be hailed as the one saving the day afterwards. In some sense, the IE games and even NWN 2 made that possible. Both the uneven 2nd ed D&D and the much more free 3.5 ed D&D did a good job at that even in CRPGs. Drastic shifts in outcomes of the same combat situation with the same tactics on behalf of the party should be possible, I reckon, coz it's much more fun and RP-minded. Having said this, I'm quite sure that the new system the Obsids are devising will take this slightly more adventurous approach to combat plans and mad tactics to heart and enable such whimsical freedom. Don't let neat equations and systems and dreams of tactical predictability get in the way of the RP in the G of PE!

I miss the option "none of the crafting systems in NWN2 and BG2 was to my taste". I've gotten quite tired of crafting, it feels to meta-gamey and game-breaking. In MotB I immediately abstained from any crafting because of the ridiculous overpowered elemantal damage mix on weapons, and usually it is no fun. I'd much rather have Fallout NV kind of system to "crafting": some repairing, maintenance, that is very easy to do, as well as a few possibilities to mod rare kinds of items as well as upgrade, say, arrows or bolts, but for that you need to find very unique items, not just staple stuff from the bush or goo in barrels. I could live without a crafting system altogether.

As long as there are anti-paladins or blackguards or something in that vein too, I'm happy to accept whatever they throw at us!

Hassat Hunter, great topic! I just posted something wishing for something similar in another topic when I saw this thread, I can only concur! And many of the suggestions are great.

IWD2's interface is definetely the best of the IE-games, I agree wholeheartedly! And I also see where you're coming from: The soulstone seems to gadgety or mysterious. Then again, there will be magic and spiritual powers and entities and undead and ethereal realms, so I wouldn't die of shock seeing a soulstone as a UI in a RPG heavily based on souls. Heck, I could scrap the Soulstone for anything else that fits better for the setting. Brainstorm peeps, brainstorm!! But the bottom line is that I would like those tabs and lists interface solutions (with neat info and graphics on the side), I just like it better than invo grids and cluttered symbols along the frame of the interface, but that's me.

JFSOCC: I see, so it could technically be like bearded ZZ-top boys? TRX850: That's one thing that is good about it, yes. And your suggestion of being able to toggle between a classic IE-invo grid and this invo-listing version is great! DCParry: I know what you mean with the hotkeys. I kept hitting "I" ever so often, and nope, I didn't get to the invo list of the Pipboy. Grrrr! That is a valid point, Soulstone or not, it should support the standard hotkey functions too. Alexjh: I do suggest all chars of one's squad has access to the Soulstone interface, that would be essential. As for where the soulstone comes from, hmm... It could be tied to the pc and the so far opaque reasons as to why our pc is leading a story in which souls play such big a part. I mean, it's weird as it is for this plc to control the rest of party as puppets as far as actions, invo, etc go. The Soulstone could be part and parcel of what makes our pc unique in some sense, a Chosen One the light version. Some unfortunate relative leaves it for us to stash away till the time comes... Honestly, it so easily gets cliche, but something of that sort. As DCParry called it, "an abstract way of organizing the concrete meta-data of our character", which basically what it is. A nice interface set in obsidian glassy gloss with swirling soul essence inside, and when you pick tabs, the interface swirl a bit, and you get where you need to be in the UI. Or perhaps Cyberarmy got it, when he termed it "a Medieval Tablet". Regardless of name, it'd like to have an interface that is slick and easy to use, especially with a squad of NPCs to take care of. I'm not sure nostalgia is a reason enough to keep IE-interfaces, so yes please invent a new wheel!

Well, the look of the UI is an important aspect of it, but I think the Pipboy was a rather clean and easy interface, especially with those lists to the left and room for other mechanics/graphics to the right. The tab system was certainly easier (buttons, and text tabs) than a standard IE-user interface. Then again, the Pipboy had the advantage of using the computer reference. And in a language I know, "pipboy" certainly would mean like a fornicating youngster!

I'd love to see more "random table" encounters while exploring larger areas, whether outdoors or some subterranean cave complex. And when the baddies do come at you, I'd like to see randomized variations in their height, width, strength, equipment, led by a leader, or two, or many other interesting combos, small variations in clothing, hairs, colour, etc, it would make everything seem so much more varied. And a new take on "shops" and ambulatory salesmen. I just think they are too common, too well-stocked, open all-hours and for some reason I can dump all meaningless rusty swords at the tavern innkeeper over and over again! :D I want shopping that make a bit more sense, that is more restricted and varied. Finally, avoid at all cost the so-called "junk loot" effect. I don't know how, but make it work!

Good question: Like a cool, dark and glossy surface of the interfaces, and then an ovalish shape to the entire Soulstone, with subtle swirls of soul substance inside the Obsidian-material, I guess?

I've played a ridiculous amount of CRPGs, and the character sheet/skill tree/inventory of my RP-character(s) has always been a source of some frustration in one form or the other. Well, I know that PE is supposed to be like the great IE-games in spirit and partly in form, so perhaps this suggestion is sacrilege, but I reckon that the Pipboy in Fallout New Vegas is one of the absolutely best character hubs in the history of CRPGs on a PC. I mean Skyrim's interface as far as inventory goes is horrible (it must have been good on consoles or something), and several other inventory systems are just so clunky and time-consuming. I'd love to see The Soulstone in Project Eternity, preferrably set in some UI-graphics of a dark and lusterous Obsidian stone-feel (as a neat wink to the Obsids). And this Soulstone would work similarly as the Pipboy in New Vegas. For those who haven't played that great game, the Pipboy is a hub brought forth with the press of a key (or in my case mapped onto a button on me gaming mouse). It's got three tabs down below (big buttons) that shift you through the categories "status", "items" and "data". Status is then subdivided into Health, Radiation and Effects. Items are subdivided into the tabs "weapons", "apparel", "aid", "misc" and "ammo". Then, finally, Data is subdivided into "local map", "world map", "quests" and "radio" IIRC. Obviously, the names of these tabs need to be changed in accordance with the game of Project Eternity. The great thing is that everything get placed in easily accessed lists (not graphical representations or tokens of the items as in the IE-games. That leaves plenty of room on the screen for more info and graphics concerning the object. I mean, a picture of the object would do, no need for Skyrim's spin-around-fest of items. And say that you enter the health tab you see where on your body you've been crippled and other health/stamina issues, as well as access to healing solutions (if any). And the Effects-tab is great, you immediately see all the effects your under, whether intoxications or drugs or whatever. And the Radiation-tab could be replaced with some Soul-tab, tracking the intensity and power of your soul. Under "Weapons" and "Apparel" it is easy to repair items of you've got the skills for it. Obviously, there would be "spells" tabs and such, and a gear system to shift Soulstone from character to character. And I'm not a sucker for them mini maps, I think it suits me better to have to bring the maps up, instead of having it up all the time up in some corner. Our Soulstone would solve that too. Obviously, those with tracking and survuval skills would still be able to see certain things and threats on the screen better than others. And "Radio" could be replaced by "Mood", where you get to change music and lighting etc a bit. All in all, such a Soulstone would be much easier and more comfy to use than most IE-hubs, but perhaps I'm in the minority here. You guys maybe loathe the Pipboy and would prefer IWD2's interface any day?

Inertia, citing me favourite game writer is a plus in my book! And George's points about the concept of the Chosen Ose are valid ones. I think it worked reasonably well in NWN2 vanilla the first two chapters but then it went south. MotB was insanely well written, so of course I will say that it works there! So, inspired by mr Ziets, but filling it with my own opinions, here are my Chosen One-lists: Chosen One, good things: -PC gets to make the critical decisions -strong motives, preferrably bound to strong powers -some special relation(s) to some ontological aspect of the world: some dimension, some rare ability or being -PC actions do make a significant difference in the world Chosen One, depends on quality of game: -World revolves round PC (In, say, MotB or Dishonored, it worked great. In, e.g., Kingdoms of Amalur, not so great) -PC and the cause-n-effect system around her/him come across as bombastic, bigger-than-thou and more-urgent-than-all-else in nature: untouchable Titans on a mission, while most of the NPCs are insignificant. In Skyrim and Fallout NV, this was done nicely, but in DS III it felt a bit contrived. Chosen One, no-nos: -ego-stroking PC -PC as some knight in shining armour who saves the day, and the world while he's/she's at it -Knowing too much, inexplicable or exaggerated access to the world's epistemology -PC is all the time dragged thru the story, almost forced to do certain things, whether it be moral choices or "necessary" actions

I loathed the darkspawns in DAO, and my worst monster category in NWN2 was orcs, hands down. They bore me to tears. I guess creatures of the sam essence as goblins and hobgoblins get under me skin too. And yes, the Chosen One and a looming Sauron-figure pulling the stings for vague, evil reasons, is a storyboard worthy of the shredder. Yea, political correctness at least in one sense: that you're not allowed to do pretty bad and evil deeds if you've opted for that kind of character. We need considerable freedom: Fallout New Vegas would be a good starting point to improve on even further.

Sorry for necroing this thread, but I just read it and think it is too important to get buried for good. I think this one of the most important aspects to an RPG that is virtually never done right, period. Even if a faction system is not implemented, this should be given careful attention. Solonik's response to this idea rings very true, and it would be great if PE could make factions be more versatile and complex than they usually are. I mean, in Fallout New Vegas you had three major factions and a neat reputation/fame system, all of which I liked, and better yet, you could opt to disregard the factions too, but then you missed out on the content of those relations. Same in Skyrim, but there the four factions were all joinable, which made it all bland and gamey. I mean, the idea that you can join all factions is cool, but there should soon be big trouble for someone trying to pull that "scam" off. Unless you RPG greatly and have good charisma, intelligence or semething. it should be impossible and lead to extradiction, risk of violence, torture, peresecution and other violent consequences. It would be nice if factions were something more than a binary sorting system in dialogue trees (1=friend, 0=enemy) and something more than a group you join for class-specific perks and purchases. I want factions that have over-arching purposes that make up the very fabric of the world and its driving economical and socio-political forces. And while it is nice to play out factions against each other, it would be nice to make the lonesome ranger approach or the sneaky two-timer approach more varied and valied options as far as the story goes. Not choosing should be an important choice as well. Religious conflicts and Machiavellian politics are ripe hotbeds for the complexity I'm after. How about you, good folks?

I second the whole list. Great post, Gumbercules!

Wonderful update! And "elves" here has nothing to do with Santa's elves. PE-elves kill Santa's elves and put them on skewers and slowly turn them over open fires! :D Inventory and top of the pack sounds great. A meaty, in-context UI is also great. Your description of the core classes were right up my alley, especially the wizard and her/his familiars (for an old P-n-P'er like me that almost brought tears to me eyes) and his/her scroll searching sounds fantastic. Grimoires FTW, as those pesky kids say nowadays. Your ideas on armour and weapons are really exciting, and contrary to some earlier poster, I do want the system so complex that you would need a calculator to dive deeper into it, but while on screen in the midst of battle it shoould above all be strategic: piercing, slashing and crushing at the right moment and to the right enemy. Merry X-mas, obsid elves!

I just wanted to pop in and underline the importance of Ieo's thread. Those are valid points that apply to a lot of discussions going on right now, and I think we'll just have to wait. Soon enough, this forum will bustle with more tangible suggestions and issues based on at least the rudiments of a game, and soon alpha and beta phases of it.