Elric Galad

Is it even possible to be lvl 1 when reaching bear cave without cheating ?

Optimal Sacred Immolation only requires 1 talent to work anyway, so investing other talent for FoD won't hinder it. However, I agree that they are overrated. People just want to turn paladin into a damage class that they are not really. It works okayishly so why not. Alpha snipping is quite satisfying Intense flames feels ok to me because it doesn't require to choose a specific order and works with Scion of Flames. Rakhan field is slighly less rewarding unless you go the Bittercut route for these reasons.

I yet again agree with you that rogue needs some minor tweaks. Many times I was considering taking a rogue in party, and every time he was denied a spot, simply because there was some other class that could do the same job plus be more versatile. On PotD, as a rule of mine I use: every of the glassier companions should have at least some emergency hard crowd-control ability to stop his other mate from being swarmed. Ciphers, Wizard, Priests, even Druids have it. And they all can dish out considerable amount of damage. Hard CC is the thing that rogue lack for me. This leads to: - make Sap available earlier (for example starting from lvl 5 or 7) because that stun is needed. - buff Smoke Cloud. Add a stronger cc to it. E.g. instead of Distraction, let it inflict a random of [Distraction, Blind, Confusion] rolled for each affected enemy separately. - using Coordinated Positioning could provide a short duration buff to rogue's reflex and deflection (let's say +10 for 8s or +15 for 5s) Plus I strongly agree on the suggested: [...] While I specifically disagree on: Good suggestions here. I would argue about Rogue Health that Health is not meant to increase survivability in battles (12hp/lvl and 15 base Def should stay as there are) but through several battles. This won't really help rogue's tanking. It is more for day to day convenience for rogue player than a true combat buff for me. But you might disagree of course And Endurance×5 on chanter would certainly be suitable !

Cat has a better base attack speed (x1.5, it is huge) AND a per rest speed increase.

Dangleman = hanging superhero OR Dangleman = Form of the Delemgan ?

Well, the point is that rogue should be way better than druid to convince me. Druids has other cards in its play such as Relentless Storm and Form of the Delegan (8 stacking physical DR for party, fast cast and ultimately per encounter...). And you should also compare Rogue with Ranger. After all, Druid DPS is limited in duration. (Reloading Spiritshift with the scepter requires attacking with it several times until it procs, so I usually prefer switching to spells at this point of the fight.) Ranger (and pet) single target DPS is another big competitor. In my opinion, this is even more critical than comparing rogue with druid. But good luck !

Two great ideas here. As I was reading backer's story, it remembered me of Planescape where there was such dialogues with Dead people, Memory stones or your own memory. I was a bit disappointed because it was not that much used in the gameplay. I like the idea of a Tyranny Conquest introduction replacing a Save Import. That is basically the only good way to make Imported Game having an impact that you can't emulate with a new character (leading to missed content for new players).

Sorry if this "trust us" sounded a bit pretentious. It was more a lazy answer than anything. I've found the link you were asking for about Druid vs Rogue damages. https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/84749-whats-wrong-with-druid-shapeshift/page-2 Happy new year 2017 to everyone by the way ! Best wishes to you and your families !

Vampire level is more annoying than difficult. 1 vampire per encounter is not really dangerous but getting a character charmed is always frustrating.

Honnestly speaking, getting to this point at level 4 is pretty wll played. Get out from underground, have a walk outside and come back later. Od Nua is not meant to be completed at this level anyway.

I sincerely doubt there could be a Rogue buff able to make them more OP than a druid.

Hey Aarik, I had the same problem today, and I did what you recommanded (except there was not CurrentGame folder). It worked fine after a computer reboot (Not sure it was completely necessary but it did not work after a mere game reboot). I still have the zipped TempSaveData in case you need it. Cheers, Happy new year 2017 !

Yeah, no offense, dude, but you should trust the veterans here. Especially because they are rational and change their minds if you demonstrate they're wrong. So they're likely not to speak without taking into account past discussions and conclusions. Which might not be the case on less comitted forums.

Problem 1 : I don't agree with your suggestion about light armor. Rogue are a DPS class so they're already incented to use light armors. With current system, you can still build a heavy armored rogue, it's usually not optimal, but there have been some good roguse build using heavy armor on this forum. This is one of the basis of PoE design to enable the use any armor or weapon from any class. I don't think it would be good to change this, especially when most rogues already wear light armor due to min-maxing. I never found that Rogue survivability was that much a problem by the way. They are surely not tanky, but when used with caution, they are able to survive pretty well. The problem for me is that they don't get enough rewards compared to the risks they take. Problem 2 : I don't agree neither for similar reasons. It's nice to have any class being able to use any weapon. Full Attack system favors dual wield, so I don't think two handed are favored at all for rogue class. Furthermore, when you start stacking +% damages like rogue does, small weapons tend to become better that medium ones, because they have a higher DPS apart from DR. When damages per hit rises, DR becomes less significant, eventually making light weapon superior. However, DR Bypass abilities could be nice. Stacking Bypass would be a very nice high level ability. And adding raw damages per hit is exacly what Deep Wound would do if made stackable ^^ However, I agree that there is a problem for Backstab and Final blow. For these, I think small weapons should get a better multiplicator. Problem 3 : Good idea even if I don't think we will see it for PoE 1. Sorry for being pessimistic

Double post.

Good point, you're right.

Mmm no. You can't add a lash on a souldbound weapon. If you have stormcaller, electricity talent is very good

Usually, I consider : - Corrode to be the most reliable Lash. - Fire is less reliable, but there are also a lot of ennemies vulnerable to it. - Cold is resisted quite often in White Marsh. So priority : - Corrode - Fire - Electricity - Cold If you have an elemental talent, prioritarize it.

Found this pre-saber nerf spreadsheet [...] EDIT: Copy paste table didn't work well, and I don't want to waste effort on a out-of-date one. > Boeroer : I'm perfectly aware that my analysis wasn't perfect. I think it's pretty insane with a lot of subcase according to Deflection/ Etc... Example : Sure for persistence, but why not Tidefall Rogue in this case ? My point was really to determine how much melee rogue in optimal condition was above bow ranger with pet, and I was pretty satisfied with my "order of magnitude" conclusions And to summarize the conclusion : Rogue is not far above enough to justify the lack of other utility and difficulty of use in a real playthrough. Which is quite in line with what you say By the way, druid is insane, yeah. But for limited time only. And cancelling all magic items kind of hurt (especially for secondary defenses). Excellent but not reliable Single Target DPS. Of course, druid is not only about that

I remember trying to compare Saber Rogue and Twinned Arrow Warbow Ranger. I can't find the details, but my assmption and conclusions were the following : Assumptions : - Constant Deathblows - Constant Apprentice Sneak Attack and Predator's Sense bonus - Pet and Ranger attacking same target - Wolf pet - Most passive increasing pet or ranger - per encounter abilities not considered Conclusions - Wolf pet does about as much physical damages per hit as a Rogue, but there are almost no way to decrease its recovery time (No Durgan pet) and it has no lash nor big dexterity bonus. Eventually, that leads to pet doing something like 20-30% of Rogue DPS. - As a rule of thumb, ranged weapons do approximately 60-66% damages of melee ones. I came to this conclusion by comparing Warbow and 2 handed weapon attack delay. - Stalker Link + Twinned Arrows basically DOUBLE ranger's DPS. Endgame, when both Ranger and Rogue have tons of weapon enchant, might and various +X% damage increase, this is what matters the most. Basically, that tends to compensate for the various Rogue +X% damage increase. - Eventually, Rogue ended a head above Ranger. It seemed to me that was a little more condition for them to deliver their optimal damages. - Rogue DPS were more resilient against high DR. Of course, Ranger could switch to firearms, but loosing Twinned Arrows will basically kill the build's DPS. And as said before, this does not take into account a lot of utilities that Ranger brings, such as pet tanking, Driving Flight, or the awesome Stunning Shots. I should do the maths again, especially after Saber nerf...

First conclusion is that most people agrees that improving Rogue's "Spike Single Target DPS" should be the way to go. Most suggestions are related to backstab. ----- Backstab indeed needs a big rework. I honnestly don't think we will get it for PoE 1, but maybe for next episode. Due to how important Base damages are, I think a damage Multiplicator would be better. Something like : - x4 for Small Weapons - x3 for Medium Weapons - x2 for Two Handed Check the numbers from base damage, with these factors Small Weapons > Medium Weapons > Two Handed. For ranged wepons, IMHO, it shouldn't work at all, but I would happily see another talent called Ambush Shot applying something like +150% damages factor on ranged weapon shot made from stealth whatever the distance is. Not being multiplicative is what would balance this compared to Backstab. Even if ranger should stay the #1 ranged constant attacker, a specialty for sniping would certainly suit the Rogue. Note that this unique factor favors Big Guns over bows, but for me it seems pretty logical for a sniping shot. Finally, Stealth shall scale better with skill level. Currently, whatever your level is, it seems impossible to backstab some high level ennemies, while even with low stealth, your funky barbarian will consistently have a good positionning. You should be able to backstab a dragon with something like Stealth 12. I suspect the difficulty is checked with something like (Stealth / ennemy level), which makes high level level ennemies impossible to trick. I would even argue that hide in plain sight should be possible, with increased difficulty. Stealth is currently a very convenient skills when you get a couple of points for all your party, but there is no true reward for high levels. It is annoying for the rogue, but not only. ----- My problem with this is that I don't think we will see it for PoE 1. So for the following reactions to your replies below, I will not take this change into account. Currently, non-cancellable invisibility for a duration gives similar results (with probably a lot of factors, not to mention quickswith build, etc...) for fast attacking or slow weapons, so emphasizing "not cancellable invisibility" abilities should mostly hide the "dagger problem". So my replies : "So we have 50-55% Hit-to-Crit rate (or 65-70% with one one-handed weapon). Considering very high Rogue accuracy (with Reckless Assault), which produce more crits by default, i think it's good enough for Rogue." => My problem with this is that most of this rate is not specific to rogues. Any class can get most of this bonus. Furthermore, my suggested change was not because I think rogue does not have enough crit, but because I find Dirty Fighting a bit weak. 20% Hit to Crit for 1 ability and 1 talent is not that great... "For me, the most annoying thing for rogues is the fact that all abilities giving invisibility end the combat when you solo. There should be always a 20-30s timer before the combat stops if the enemies can't continue to fight." => Totally legit comment. I'm adding it to my general changes list ^^ "Finishing blow per encounter" => Yeah, maybe. Making it 2x per encounter will make it too powerful in my opinion. Making it 1x per encounter won't really buff the rogue. The main problem for Finshing Blow for me is that it works the best when the target is almost dead, which it makes it annoying to use. However, multiplicative damages buff is rare enough to be noticeable. I think something like 1x per encounter 2x damages against target under 50% Endurance (x3 with Talent) would be a very nice revamp. (and unconditional Full Attack, +5 Acc and +50% damages as it is now) "I think shadow step currently provides 0% damage (the same +20% damage modal used by reckless and savage attack. )" => Good point. Given that Reckless Assault don't stack with Devotion for the Faithful Acc bonus either, it's a bit too much non-stacking issue. I'm going to edit my Shadowstep Proposal the following way : - No more Damage bonus. - Not cancellable invisibility instead (so it's really a Shadow Step) - Maximum Duration reduced to 6s for balancing purpose. Smoke Cloud change suggested by Mosspit : Seems quite a big change for me. Not likely to happen and maybe a bit complicated for my taste. However, an additional 3s non-cancellable invisibility would be nice. I'll add that to my change suggestion list. Shadowing beyond : I don't know what could be done for this one. Making it 2x per encounter will make it too powerful in my opinion. Making it 1x per encounter won't really buff the rogue. It also slide backstab in favor of big weapons So probably shifting it to 1x encounter with 6s not cancellable invisibility would be a good compromise. EDIT: Thinking twice, this one is over the top. Cumulating with suggested change for Feign Death, Shadow Step Smoking Cloud and Shadowing beyond, it results in 21s (+%5 per INT) invisibility + Backstab per encounter. it is a bit to much. So simply making it 1x per encounter is enough in my opinion. Shadowing Step, Smoking Cloud and Feign Death not cancellable invisibility should be enough to make the Rogue Great Side note : Not cancellable invisbility should be buffed by INT anyway. Their low duration can be worked around with the right build. High INT Rogue feels nice Lore-Wise, and would also benefit froma deep wound buff.

Well, for me, it's normal if a rogue don't lead in total damage output compared to AoE damage dealer. I can't see a rogue getting more kills than a (Dragon Slashed) chanter. But they should be the best for priority target elimination, as it is the purpose of Single Target damage dealer.

Gratulacje !

"Eyeless may cry"

This thread became in a discussion about why Rogue are still UP ( https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/90435-player-returning-from-launch-wants-basic-info/ ), Here is a good summary of the problem from another poster : So I decided to create a new thread about possible rogue changes. This also because my previous one ( https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/85541-the-rogue-and-barbarian-polishing-thread/ ) seems to have ended pretty successfully when patch 3.03 was released I suppose it would be a bit late for this kind whining if PoE2 wasn't under development. I guess these changes could be seen as an investment And PoE is still patched from times to times, so... why not ? So my suggestions are below. The idea is that low level abilities are quite OK after patch 3.03. I'm still pleading for a few tweaks, but nothing big. The major changes are for high level ones : Shadow Step and Feign Death. ----- General Changes : Distracted should be listed as Sneak Attack Triggering conditons. Health : Buffed to Endurance x 5. Rogue is supposed to be a martial class. All martial classes have at least x5 health multiplicator. Low Deflection and Endurance is enough hindering for Rogues in my opinion. Currently, rogue is too often the cause of resting, which I find annoying. It would also be an indirect convenience buff for Riposte rogues... EDIT: Invibility shall not immediately stop a fight. ----- Abilities Changes : Crippling Strike : No change Blinding Strike : No change Reckless Assault : No change Escape : No change Dirty Fighting : good ability but lowish numbers Especially compared to One Handed Style recent change (abilities are supposed to be better than talents). Even if One Handed Style is conditionnal. 15% Hit to Crit would be good. (10% Hit to Crit for vicious fighting is enough in my opinion) Riposte : With the current system, it's better to be grazed than missed. Riposte occurence has been described to be a bit too low by the ones who tested it since 3.03, so I think 30% of Riposte for Graze AND Miss would be OK. Finishing Blow : EDIT : The main problem for Finshing Blow for me is that it works the best when the target is almost dead, which it makes it annoying to use. However, multiplicative damages buff is rare enough to be noticeable. I think something like 1x per encounter 2x damages against target under 50% Endurance (x3 with Devastating blows) would be a very nice revamp. (and unconditional Full Attack, +5 Acc and +50% damages as it is now) Deep Wounds : Deep Wounds should stack with themseves. Currently, its damages are very low, escpecially at high levels. Adept Evasion : No change Coordinated Positioning : No change Persistent Distraction : No change (refer to distracted changes) Withering Strike & Fearsome Strike : There have been changes in patch 3.03. That's good but I still find them too weak for their level. My suggestion is simply to make them available at level 7. (This is also to make them consistent with Sap change below). Deathblow : No change Smoke Cloud : EDIT Add 3s of non-cancellable invisibility on Rogue. (also refer to distracted changes) Sap : Okayish, but still too high level compared to its effect. My suggestion is simply to make it available at level 9. Shadow Step : Here comes the great deal. Rogue lack great High level abilities. Let's change this ! EDIT: So, Shadow Step should give non cancellable invisibility for the time it is active instead of +20% damages. Maximum Duration reduced to 6s. Reminder : Backstab bonus damages are applied during invisibility. So it's a big change. Other classes also get some incredibly powerful stuff at high level (Immolation and Twin Arrows noticeably), so I can't see any reason why Rogue wouldn't get something juicy. And Rogue should be the specialist for Spike Single Target DPS anyway. Feign Death : The ultimate Rogue ability, yeah. 10s of auto-incapacitation for an offensive class is not good. Make the Prone Duration Cancellable like Shadow Step has been suggested several time on this forum, and I think it's the best way to improve it too. (Make it fast cast instead of instant cast to avoid abuses). It would also be more reallistic this way. Reminder : Backstab bonus damages are applied during invisibility. This Invisibility is not cancelled by attacking. ----- Talents : EDIT: Shadowing Beyond : Change to 1x per encounter No changes to other talents. That's all. Don't hesitate to make remarks or to suggest additional changes. The point is : the more "reasonnable" is the suggested change, the more likely it is to actually happen.