Jediphile

Yeah, I hear you... If only we could find our way away from it also...

Hmmm,

Well, Anakin wiped the floor with Dooku, and then Anakin was defeated by Obi-Wan, so...

Agreed for ANH and ESB, but not RotJ, which was a fairly weak and repetitive plot. Sure, it has nice space battles and manages to deliver an enticing and spectacular finale, but pretty much everything in the plot, we'd already seen in the previous two movies.

No, because while Revan will be alone in that fight, the new character will not, and even Revan can be overmatched when faced with at least three jedi knights, especially if Bastila is present to use their connection against Revan. Gee, I wish... My bad I think Revan did not so much lose his mind (after K1, I mean) as he did his heart. The DS Revan just couldn't trust anyone not to betray him, and LS Revan couldn't bear to lead yet more friends into ruin. Over the course of K1's events, Revan had to face all the evil he had done before. That either destroyed the last bit of humanity and trust in others left in him (DS) or else wore so heavily on his conscience that it destroyed the last bit of resolve he had left in him (LS). Either way, he was not going to trust/risk others in his quest again, not unless they were sith whom he could use and sacrifice in the firm knowledge that they would just the same themselves. Well, from Wookieepedia's "timeline" (always recommended): * 3,996 BBY o The Great Sith War. Fallen Jedi Ulic Qel-Droma and Exar Kun lead a war against the Republic, but are defeated by the Republic and light side Jedi. * 3,976 BBY o The Mandalorian Neo-Crusaders begin to conquer worlds in the Outer Rim. The Jedi Council forbids involvement by the Jedi until the problem has been assessed. * 3,963 BBY o The Mandalorian Wars begin. The Jedi Revan and Malak defy the Jedi Council and lead the Republic forces against the invaders. * 3,960 BBY o The Mandalorian Wars end. A Jedi serving Revan as general, later called the Exile, willfully severs all ties to the Force to end the pain caused by the thousands of deaths at the Battle of Malachor V. Revan and Malak disappear. The Exile is called to Coruscant to answer for defying the Jedi Council, and is banished upon the Council learning of the general's willful abandonment of the Force. * 3,959 BBY o Revan and Malak, who have been seduced by the Dark Side, declare war on the Republic. Only the Battle Meditation of Bastila Shan staves off certain defeat. * 3,956 BBY o The Jedi Civil War concludes with the redemption of Revan, the death of Malak, and the destruction of the Star Forge. * 3,955 BBY o Revan disappears into the Unknown Regions to destroy the ancient Sith Empire. * 3,951 BBY o The Exile is discovered aboard the Ebon Hawk, Revan's ship, by Darth Traya, a Sith Lord trying to kill the Force by manipulating the life-threatening echoes caused by the Exile's willing abandonment of it. The Exile reestablishes connection to the Force, then kills Darth Traya, Darth Nihilus, and Darth Sion, who have spent the last five years murdering Jedi. End of the Old Sith Wars. * c. 3,950 BBY o The Exile departs to the Unknown Regions to find Revan, and the Jedi Order is rebuilt by the surviving Jedi.

Why not?

I know those comic books, but those masters have nothing to do with the masters we see in K1 or K2. And the thought of Zayne being Nihilus is just scary Please no - I'd loose the last bit of awe I have for Nihilus!

Click here for your answer...

There are far more than that. As for my own, I already posted it on these boards some time ago, though I sort of regretted it, since I'm now almost certain be disappointed by whathever K3 will turn out to be... But if you want to see it, I suppose there is little point in keeping it secret, since you can easily find it be looking through old parts of the K3 suggestions topic. It's pretty long, though, but you can find the links to it all here. I agree to a point. Revan's mistake was the same Luke made in the Dark Empire comic books - he decided that he had to it all himself. But as Luke realises at the end of those books, the way of the jedi is not a solitary path, and that is precisely where Revan went wrong. The jedi find their strength in their unity, trust and loyalty. Revan abandoned all those. But I don't agree that Revan knew anything about the true Sith when he entered the Mandalorian Wars. I think it was only at the Trayus Academy on Malachor V that Revan realised the danger they presented. And to me that is precisely why he never told Malak about the true Sith, as he otherwise would have before they both fell to the dark side - as an LS'er he would have told his good friend, but as a dark lord, he kept all his secrets and plans for conquest to himself. At that point Malak was no longer a friend - he as an apprentice at best and a servant or soldier to carry out Revan's bidding when needed. Malak became just another pawn that could be sacrificed if the need ever arose, so he did not need to know what Revan was planning.

We're at the heart of our difference here, I think. The question is whether a fallen Revan can change his/her alignment again. I would say yes, but only if s/he ended up as LS in K1. This is assuming, of course, that you're playing a new character instead of Revan in K3, as both The Architect and I have suggested. In that case, I don't want a LS/DS choice for Revan, because Revan is not the character you're playing now - you already made the LS/DS choice back in K1 (and during the set-up of the game, where you chose his/her alignment). And since I'm playing a new character in K3, I don't get to choose Revan's alignment - I just get to choose whether I want to redeem LS Revan if I'm also LS or else to kill the fallen LS Revan because I don't want him to threaten my own rise to power, if I'm DS. I want to accept the choice that was made back in K1 (and confirmed at the beginning of the game), not change it yet again - if I wanted a redeemable Revan, then I should have set him/her to LS in the beginning. Nah, the true Sith may be sneaky, but they constantly fight among themselves. For Revan it would take little more than convincing some lesser sith lords that they can become more powerful by siding with him against the ruling lords, and there you go. Sure, they would plan to betray Revan at the first chance and seize power for themselves, but then this is just the sort of strategic game that Revan is really good at. If you look at the Great Hyperspace War (as seen in Tales of the Jedi: Golden Age of the Sith and Fall of the Sith Empire), you'll note that their empire fell not because they were weaker than the republic, but precisely because they fought so much among themselves that they gave the republic every chance to retaliate. If they could have just stood together, they could have run over the republic in short order without trouble, even when Sadow's initial invasion was repulsed, but he and Kressh could never overcome their differences in the pursuit of a common goal, since they were both hellbent on ruling the empire, and so it fell to pieces, as it always will for the dark siders. They are certainly powerful, but it scarcely matters when there is no sense of trust or loyalty. Those are distant worlds of the old sith empire, and with it's decline, it's not surprising that some of the outlying worlds were "forgotten". Sure, Korriban may have been the homeworld of the Sith species, but they were never ranked high in the empire until they interbred with the dark jedi and some of their offspring began learning the force. After all, they did use Korriban just as a graveyard world. What they used Malachor for I'm not sure. Besides, they might also have abandoned those worlds simply because they were discovered by the republic. For the real core worlds of the old sith empire, you have to look at worlds like Ch'hodos, Rhelg, Khar Shian/Khar Delba, and particularly Thule and Ziost. We really need to see Ziost in K3 - it's only the throneworld of the ruling dark lord of the true sith...

Well, he did hold his own in a straight fight against Naga Sadow... He may have been an idiot, but he was not weak in the force IMHO.

There is little evidence to support that theory. Don't get me wrong, it does make sense, but we just don't know, and in any event, I do believe that falls under just the sort of temptations that jedi are trained to resist in the first place. I don't think so. First, I don't think that the fact that the Exile activated the MSG has as much significance as you seem to think, and secondly, we already know that all the other jedi at Malachor V either died or fell to the dark side, so the events certainly had impact on them as well. What? Where do you get that from?? The masters saw a lot of risks down the road, and as Bastila tells us in K1, the masters would have intervened at some point, except Revan forced the issue and split the order. Given the fallout of the Mandalorian Wars, the masters' fears seem more than justified. I do agree that their choice is debatable, though. As for Malachor, what was there to explore? The planet was pretty much destroyed at the end of the Mandalorian Wars, and the masters had no idea that the Trayus academy was hidden there. Indeed, only Revan (and obviously Kreia) seems to have been aware of it. He did defy the jedi order by joining Revan, and as you point out yourself, he was the one to activate the MSG. He had already committed two serious crimes in their opinion. Who could? Not knowing about Malachor and the Sith working from the shadows, it's not surprising that they were taken by surprise. I think that's mostly down to bad storytelling. At least I think so for Kavar and, especially, Zez-Kai Ell, who seem quite understanding of the Exile's position in K2 when you meet them individually (particularly Zez-Kai Ell). Still, given the danger the Exile represented to the force, I do understand their motives. I don't agree with their decision, but I do understand their reasons. I agree more with you here. It's too bad that Zez-Kai Ell's motives were just written out of the final meeting with the masters on Dantooine, because Zez-Kai Ell has some good points: "Perhaps the Council, perhaps the Order itself had grown arrogant in their teachings. It is easy to cast blame, but it is perhaps time the Order accepted responsibility for their teachings, and their arrogance, and come to recognize that perhaps we are flawed.Not once did I hear one of the Council claim responsibility for Revan, for Exar Kun, for Ulic, for Malak... or for you. Yet... you were the only one who came back from the wars to face our judgment. And rather than attempting to understand why you did what you did, we punished you instead. Our one chance to see where we had gone wrong, and we cast it aside. And now, that decision has come back to us, and may carry with it, our destruction. Perhaps there is something wrong in us, in our teachings. And though I tried, I could not cause that thought to leave me - so I left the Council."

But he got his ass kicked by Holy grails black knight! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nah, it was merely a flesh wound...

Kreia is manipulative and full of deceit, and lots of people don't like that. In fact, most of us probably don't like her for that reason. I know I don't. But the distinction is that while I don't much like her, I do realise that she a wonderfully written character. She also has slightly redeeming in quality in her hatred of the force being based on her own disgust at how it "controls" or "dominates" people. This does not not excuse what she does, but I do appreciate and acknowledge that she doesn't do just because she's an evil old hag. I feel about Kreia a bit like I do about Garak on Star Trek: DS9 - I love the characterization and what is written, but I don't like the character and would NEVER turn my back on him...

Luke Skywalker Anakin/Vader Darth Plagueis? Yoda Marka Ragnos Revan Mace Windu Naga Sadow Palpatine/Sidious Obi-Wan The Exile Kyp Durron Ludo Kressh Dooku Some close calls, but that would be the immediate list. I leave Leia and Mara Jade out, since they would be there only after a host of powerful jedi, and that would make for a long list indeed.

That's where I disagree, because if Revan really needed to fight the true Sith, then he would have needed the republic unharmed and prepared for war. But instead he spent his own resources of manpower and ships to attack and attempt to conquer the republic, pushing both sides (republic and his own sith forces) to exhaustion. That doesn't suggest to me that he was trying to save the republic, since it will be weaker for it, as it does that he just wanted to conquer it for power. Besides, Revan doesn't remember about the true Sith until a year after K1. It's true that Revan did not attack some targets, notably Onderon, due to it's strategic importance on the outskirts of the republic, which suggests he needed it as a base or bastion against the true Sith, but that can as easily mean "I need that world to protect my empire later" as it can "we need it to protect the republic from the true Sith". I think Revan knew about the Sith at the end of the Mandalorian Wars and converted the jedi to sith at Malachor V to create an army he could use against the true Sith. But I also think that Revan was seduced by the dark side's promise of power some time after that, and that this why he confitnued to fight the republc so hard.

Yes, that's exactly why ESB is the best of them all. The original movie is a very classic adventure-film with all the highs and lows as well as all the classic archetypes in there (the young and clueless hero with a dream, the mysterious old helper, the reluctant hero, the damsel-in-distress, the evil "black knight", etc., etc.). It was high fantasy set in space with all the climaxes it needed. But ESB went further. The problem with high fantasy is frequently the problem of "where do we go from here?". Usually they end with every problem being solved and all the bad guys being dead or defeated. But what happens the next day? Where the heroes go after that? ESB told precisely that and took the characters seriously beyond their initial high fantasy archetype. When Han and Leia become involved, they become true characters beyond their archetypes, because this is what people do in real life. When Luke - the great and pure hero - is forced to humble himself to learn from Yoda and later learns of his heritage, he grows so far beyond the simple "peasant hero" he was in the previous movie that it is just staggering - I still remember the shock it was when Vader cut his hand off and then told him he was his father. You can say what you want - I'll maintain that if someone asks which scene most readily comes to mind if someone mentions Star Wars, then it will be "No, Luke - I am your father!!" and no other! Deny it all you want - I won't believe you!

That is correct. I love lightsaber battles, just like I do battles in space (ships fighting). Not only was the battle good but the music for it was perfect. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Agreed. That lightsaber battle was the wildest thing I ever saw, both for the actual fights (Nick Gillard ) and the excellent must (Williams ). It was incredible that they could take it all up a notch in RotS after that. And it would be an understatement to saw that I'm impressed by John Williams' ability to make Star Wars grow musically even then - he's been in this saga for so long, made so many classic themes for it, and he somehow manages to mix the old and known with new themes, that are just as classic. "The Battle of the Heroes" is wonderful music in RotS, as is the music when Anakin ponders his options...

Isard should be on this list. I think I'd vote for her...

Very nice Don't mistake me for one of the die-hard Revan fanboys, though. I certainly don't think Revan saw the whole thing coming all along, but I do think he did by the end of the Mandalorian Wars, and the reason for that is Malachor V. That is where Kreia suggests Revan learned of the true Sith, and that is the place he chose to destroy the Mandalorians and, at the same time, convert the jedi. It seems to fit rather well, I think...

Yes. IF DS Revan is not going to be redeemable, then Carth serves no purpose in the plot and can be safely ignored. If Revan is LS, however, Carth becomes important, and essential if Revan is also female. I think the only one I did kill off (or rather not use) was Juhani from K1. Not many seem to any particular affection for her (or they at least like other characters more), and I don't really either. I don't hate her - she's an okay character to me - but I do find most of the others more interesting. So I just assumed that she, too, had been killed on Kataar (assuming LS Revan). But yes, the rest of them where in there to some extent, at least in the LS Revan/LS Exile version. Actually, it was an entire year after. Revan has just had four years, but then he fought - and won - the Mandalorian Wars in less... (oh, and thanks) Yes, it would seem odd that Revan was trained by the jedi order, if he was a true Sith. Still, it could be the case, if there is a really good explanation, but I'd prefer not to. It seems too much like retconning Revan, and we already saw some of that. I didn't mind in K2, since it was done tastefully and without betraying the character, but I'd prefer it didn't go any further than that. Revan coming from a world (Deralia?) living in the shadow of the proximity of the true Sith is a valid option, though.

And that is precisely why it is a clich

Sort of. The Exile convices Sion to let go of his life, to give up the will to live. Which the game also seems to imply is the only way to kill him. "This battle was never about the flesh, it was about belief." In essence yes the Exile did kill Sion, but not with her lightsaber. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> "The pen is mightier than the sword" :D Or in this case the voice...

There isn't any evidence of him dieing on M4-78... <_< <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, there isn't, and I'm not saying he was supposed to, just that I read it somewhere and wondered about it.