HoonDing Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 without religion we'd've colonized Mars already The ending of the words is ALMSIVI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartimaeus Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Some is feeling unusually combative today. BTW any guesses on who hacked Gfted1's password? It doesn't look like anything to me. 1 Quote How I have existed fills me with horror. For I have failed in everything - spelling, arithmetic, riding, tennis, golf; dancing, singing, acting; wife, mistress, whore, friend. Even cooking. And I do not excuse myself with the usual escape of 'not trying'. I tried with all my heart. In my dreams, I am not crippled. In my dreams, I dance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
injurai Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Aren't there different kinds of asbestos though? Some you can pull apart with your hands like cotton candy and it's fibers immediately go airborne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Other "important documents" throughout history show many gods so maybe you guys should believe those hokum. Spread out your gods a bit so you don't get stuck with the butthurt god that punishes you to eternal torment for not following his "word". I'm not really sure who 'you guys' are. I'm not actually religious. I was just surprised to see you casually dismiss a huge swath of humanity. What the what? Why we exist? I don't really care "why" but Ill go with a fortuitous sequence of events and biology. NOT that some omnipotent being created us for the lulz. However I am willing to accept ANY, and I mean ANY, physical proof that I can see or touch. Can you hook a brother up? Honestly, fortuitous sequence of events and biology sounds just as unlikely as omnipotent being to me. I am firmly in the agnostic camp. I have no idea. Everyone is free to have their opinions. I'm right there with you against religion when it is used to subjugate and control, but I just see it as a tool. Just like guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maedhros Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 I love my christian and muslim friends, but I think religion (of any sort) is ridiculous. I can respect the positive aspects of religion (trying to follow Jesus' teachings etc) - but it's hard to fathom how people I know to be smarter than me can believe in a supreme magical being without any evidence. I'm sure they feel we heathens are ridiculous too though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
injurai Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 I'm somewhat of an agnostic/anti-theist but If I'm being honest with myself I can understand the thrust of theistic thinking. Perhaps it's my upbringing in a faith, but the pragmatists have their point, knowing the absolute truth is impossible. Our best efforts rely on tons of empirical work and formalization, but on an average day you rely on your own self-developed heuristics. Even if imperfect approximations. Having a salient narrative that guides you through the social realm of humanity, that guides you through the stages of a successful human life. Something that you don't have to entirely construct from scratch from yourself. Something that is broader than just the best advice of one's parents. That's valuable, and religion solidified such guidance early in human civilization. Plus it qualms fears of death and loss. However it's a dogma of antiquity and just doesn't deliver the same returns that it once could. I think studying all faiths in a sort of nominal secular way allows you to reclaim the perspective and best values, while not taking everything as literal truth or even as parables whose message is true. Instead religions should be treated like anything else that can be learned from, and as always there is due diligence in learning the right lessons. Some people of faith really do deserve the harshest scorn, for outside of humility before their lord, they lack all humility and due diligence with regards to their fellow human beings. Writing off everyone of faith just makes you look like you have a chip on your shoulder and don't really have any sense as to what a more sensible secular humanist world would look like. Organized religion however... that's really where all my scorn comes out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben No.3 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 I love my christian and muslim friends, but I think religion (of any sort) is ridiculous. I can respect the positive aspects of religion (trying to follow Jesus' teachings etc) - but it's hard to fathom how people I know to be smarter than me can believe in a supreme magical being without any evidence. I'm sure they feel we heathens are ridiculous too though. eh, I’ve seen religion change people to the better... they at least say they changed because of religion, I say they change regardless or maybe even though. But if I ask them to be critical, it’s only fair to ask the same of me. So perhaps they’re right Everybody knows the deal is rotten Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton For your ribbons and bows And everybody knows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 I was joking Gfted1, you're good.. I'm agreeing with Hurlshot. Asserting one impossible to prove thing is true over another impossible to prove thing sounds a lot like faith to me. But since we are talking about leaps of faith either way the only folks with the rational position are the agnostics who don't take the leap. But as for me, I'm firmly in the camp of there being a God and creator to all things (presumably the two being the same). Although I did not come to that conclusion lightly or early in life. Now, what God actually wants, or thinks of us, of the various churches who say they know, of everything else is anyone's guess. And anyone who tells you they KNOW you should probably keep away from. It's fair to guess God does feel some affection for all of his creations (all of us and everything else too) so that makes him a pretty sympathetic figure in my book. Can you imagine how it would feel if one of your children killed another and tuned to you and said "I did it for you Dad!" 1 "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majestic Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 I'm agreeing with Hurlshot. Asserting one impossible to prove thing is true over another impossible to prove thing sounds a lot like faith to me. Except it's not, but that is a whole different can of worms and wouldn't really belong into a political thread anyway. But it's a very human trait, looking for patterns and order where there might be none. No mind to think. No will to break. No voice to cry suffering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfted1 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 I'm not really sure who 'you guys' are. I'm not actually religious. I was just surprised to see you casually dismiss a huge swath of humanity. "You guys" are those who believe in a god. A sampling of other things that I casually dismiss, and those that believe in them are: Reptilians, yeti, Nessie, werewolves and vampires (but not reverse vampires, those are real). Honestly, fortuitous sequence of events and biology sounds just as unlikely as omnipotent being to me. I don't really know how to respond to this. Go plant a fruit seed and come back in a few weeks. I am firmly in the agnostic camp. I have no idea. Everyone is free to have their opinions. I'm right there with you against religion when it is used to subjugate and control, but I just see it as a tool. Just like guns. I feel that organized religion's were specifically designed to subjugate and control. without religion we'd've colonized Mars already Pfft, Alpha Centauri. "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Aren't there different kinds of asbestos though? Some you can pull apart with your hands like cotton candy and it's fibers immediately go airborne. Blue and grey were the main types, iirc. Blue is intrinsically dangerous since it will very readily break up into fibres; grey is safe for most in situ stuff and proximal applications but can be very bad in case of demolitions and the like, and demolitions are to practical purposes inevitable. My school had grey asbestos work benches in its science labs and they were perfectly safe, but when it comes time to getting rid of them it will be expensive since that's when you have the main risk of it breaking up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Honestly, fortuitous sequence of events and biology sounds just as unlikely as omnipotent being to me. I don't really know how to respond to this. Go plant a fruit seed and come back in a few weeks. Well I wouldn't call myself omnipotent, but I appreciate the compliment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
injurai Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Aren't there different kinds of asbestos though? Some you can pull apart with your hands like cotton candy and it's fibers immediately go airborne. Blue and grey were the main types, iirc. Blue is intrinsically dangerous since it will very readily break up into fibres; grey is safe for most in situ stuff and proximal applications but can be very bad in case of demolitions and the like, and demolitions are to practical purposes inevitable. My school had grey asbestos work benches in its science labs and they were perfectly safe, but when it comes time to getting rid of them it will be expensive since that's when you have the main risk of it breaking up. Gotcha, yeah it was the blue I had in mind. That stuff is freaky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartimaeus Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 (edited) I'm agreeing with Hurlshot. Asserting one impossible to prove thing is true over another impossible to prove thing sounds a lot like faith to me. Except it's not, but that is a whole different can of worms and wouldn't really belong into a political thread anyway. But it's a very human trait, looking for patterns and order where there might be none. We have the Big Bang Theory to explain the present state of our universe on a macro-scale. AFAIK, we do not really have any working theory as to why existence (basic matter and energy) is a thing at all - I've personally always thought the only logical line of thinking is that nothing should exist, since if you keep going back in "time" (i.e. prior states of the universe), at some point, something must've arisen from nothing. Maybe "time" is an illusion, and trying to understand the universe in terms of prior states is a completely wrong way of looking at things...but that apparently seems to be the way we're stuck with. Alternatively, how could matter and energy have always simply existed? Either way I look at it, the entire concept of anything existing is a fuzzy, incomprehensible, and utterly illogical mess for which there seems to be no answer...and I've never heard anything even approaching a working answer to solve it. Maybe you know something I don't, though. So it's not exactly a surprise that some people would prefer to put a little faith into a religion than think about these big money questions that have no answers (while still managing to be pretty existentially frightening by simply being asked). Jesus, for example, is pretty well accepted by historians to have existed - whether or not he did or said 99.99% of the things described in the Bible, or whether he was in any way divine(ly inspired), those are things that we cannot confirm to any degree. Still, just the fact that there's just that tiny little bit of consensus-accredited authenticity (his basic existence and its apparent effect upon the world) along with the fact that he existed only a mere hundred generations ago...and of course, the legitimacy effect of so many still apparently following him (if a billion people followed Scientology instead, it too would automatically have some legitimacy simply by the sheer numbers)...is enough to put a little pragmatic doubt and curiosity into even the most agnostic of minds. Me? I think anything being divine is horridly, dreadfully slim, Jesus included - though I do hope otherwise, although perhaps not in the way many of his followers might envision. But there's no way I'd make that leap of faith into proclaiming that I *know* there is nothing divine (or something like it). Edited June 7, 2018 by Bartimaeus 2 Quote How I have existed fills me with horror. For I have failed in everything - spelling, arithmetic, riding, tennis, golf; dancing, singing, acting; wife, mistress, whore, friend. Even cooking. And I do not excuse myself with the usual escape of 'not trying'. I tried with all my heart. In my dreams, I am not crippled. In my dreams, I dance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majestic Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 (edited) That's not really what I was going for, but I appreciate the reply nontheless. It's a bit too late to discuss this in detail, I just wanted to point out that between two apparently equally unlikely scenarios we can - usually - pick one that is superior through Occam's razor, at least until such a time new evidence or observation falsify one or both assumptions. Not that this truly applies to faith or the idea of a creator entity. Because faith is not falsifiable by default. Edited June 7, 2018 by majestic 1 No mind to think. No will to break. No voice to cry suffering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 You all realize we've had this discussion before right? "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smjjames Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 About religion? I can imagine it coming up spontaneously on occasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Pfft, Alpha Centauri. Humph! You do realize there is no proof there are any planets around that star right. In fact SCIENCE has PROVEN there are no planets around Alpha Centauri B. Yet here you are believing in your little fairy tales about mythical planets. You've never been to Alpha Centauri, you've never seen any planets there so don't go giving me your superstitious nonsense. I've never been there but I KNOW there are no planets because a scientist (some guy named Dumusque whose never been there either) said so. "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Politics or humor? I couldn't decide but Gfted1 sounds like he needs a laugh soooo: 2 "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 (edited) I always like to point out the fact that the first guy to propose the Big Bang was a Catholic priest. You all realize we've had this discussion before right? Of course! Religion is right up there with Politics and Bioware when it comes to fun controversies to discuss. Edited June 8, 2018 by Hurlshot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 (edited) Not really a theological take here but if you'll indulge me. So the christian right which is a firm supporter of Trump ( if you think that is rife with logical contradictions wait until you see where I'm going with this) right? Right. So they are among the groups cheering illegal immigrant families being broken up and sent back to wherever the hell they came from. Right? Right. Those same Trump supporters are then donating to churches who are funding missionaries to go to those same countries there folks are getting shipped to. Am i the only one who sees a lot opportunity to same money and airline miles here? Edited June 8, 2018 by Guard Dog "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smjjames Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 (edited) That certainly seems like a scheme far-left liberals (though I guess could be applicable to anywhere on the spectrum) would make up, heh, make the missionaries pay for transporting those individuals back to their home countries and have them fly on the same airplane that the missionaries are on. You're the first one that I know of that has thought up that idea though. edit: No, wait, stereotypical far left liberals would probably do the exact opposite of far right conservatives and deport as few as possible. *shrug* Edited June 8, 2018 by smjjames Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Doh! I was thinking more "don't deport them and invite them to church here". But we could go your way too. "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smjjames Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 I thought that's what you were going for with the 'save money and airmiles' bit, but 'deporting' them to the churches funding missionaries going to those various countries does sound like a nice way to highlight the hypocrisy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Well PCs. You got the majority. No excuses. But, Doug Ford. Why did he have to be leader? <. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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