[ENDING SPOILERS] The ending of Deadfire and what it means for The Lore

[Shadout]

Finished the game just now as well. and yeah for the longest time my question in the game was; how exactly did everyone survive before the wheel?

It seemed slightly relevant if you want me to try influencing (even if you actually cant) what happens in the game - and oh boy doesn't everyone in the game want to hear my opinion on that matter all the time.

Only explanation you get, is one that clearly does not fit - lack of the Wheel cant be the end of all life (unless kith finds a new way yada yada), if there was life before the wheel.

It seems like a story issue Obisidan can easily fix later either in DLC or a sequel. But it should not have been an issue to begin with, as the plot hole removes a basic pillar (pun not intended!) the whole story rests on. At least my character should have had an option to ask the gods such an obvious question, even if nobody could or wanted to give an answer.

[Aramintai]

By whom? The gods? The same liars that have an interest to keep the system alive? I don't know if we can consider them as reliable sources. What I got out of the story was, that no one really knew what Eothas deeds would accomplish. 

I understand you want to be in denial, but what the game says is canon, unless later retconed.

[Aramintai]

Also, heckin main quest was super short. I had 37 hr clocked before I went to randevous with Eothas on the volcano and then follow him further and then the game just abruptly ended. Most of it is small quests for factions and some for companions, I feel like I wanted more from Eothas the boyo.

Yea, I'd say it's criminally short.

[Sceptenar]

Josh Sawyer tweeted that the internal speedrun record for the critical path of the game is only 1 hour and 15 minutes. Short doesn't do it justice, we're into blink and you'll miss it territory.

[Aramintai]

Josh Sawyer tweeted that the internal speedrun record for the critical path of the game is only 1 hour and 15 minutes. Short doesn't do it justice, we're into blink and you'll miss it territory.

Yea, I've finished them in 30+ hours as well doing everything. The main plot took a very tiny part of that, most of the time I was exploring and doing side quests.

[Kapten Teo]

I never found the story or the ending the least bit confusing - many of the questions OP is asking are answered throughout the game, making it sound like they simply didn't pay attention. The writing in this game is top-notch and, on a personal level, I found it all very gripping and intense to play through. I'd go as far as to say that this is one of the finest written RPG's I've played, and this permeates every aspect of the game; from the story to the characters and the world-building. It was a sheer joy to experience, and I immediately jumped on a second playthrough once my first was finished at around the 55-hour mark.

 

Needless to say, I am very pleased with how this game turned out. It surpassed my already fairly high expectations, and I'm definitely looking forward to the additional content that will be released the later on.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Kindoffer

[Shadout]

If those questions were answered, what then was the answer regarding life before the Wheel was created?

[NocturnalTrance]

I never found the story or the ending the least bit confusing - many of the questions OP is asking are answered throughout the game, making it sound like they simply didn't pay attention. The writing in this game is top-notch and, on a personal level, I found it all very gripping and intense to play through. I'd go as far as to say that this is one of the finest written RPG's I've played, and this permeates every aspect of the game; from the story to the characters and the world-building. It was a sheer joy to experience, and I immediately jumped on a second playthrough once my first was finished at around the 55-hour mark.

 

Needless to say, I am very pleased with how this game turned out. It surpassed my already fairly high expectations, and I'm definitely looking forward to the additional content that will be released the later on.

 

Don't think any of us that have any personal reservations regarding the ending hate the game or think it is a badly written story. I actually loved Deadfire and its story. We are only discussing the ending and some questions that rose from it. The questions regarding the Wheel and the cycle of reincarnations were not answered in the game that well. The new lore introduced also clashes with prior understaning of the laws of Eora's universe. To introduce the concept of Entwithans, kith, manufacturing a law of nature so integral to the universe and the function of life is a big jump from what was to be assumed a natural phenomenon in the first game.

[Greensleeve]

I do think it's worth bearing in mind that we have absolutely no indications that the gods we interact with are even close to omniscient. I'd even go far enough to say that they don't really seem to know more than the Engwithans they used to be. 

 

I'm also not convinced that reincarnation is the same as the Wheel. I know Berath implied as much, but I don't think they really know the whole story here. I'd argue that it's more likely the Wheel only prevented, or at least slowed, entropy from fracturing souls. 

 

If nothing else, the concept of the Wheel predated the gods. There is textual, in-game proof of that. 

[Aramintai]

If nothing else, the concept of the Wheel predated the gods. There is textual, in-game proof of that. 

That's why it's so weird to hear this "Engwithans created the Wheel" retcon in POE2, it conflicts with established POE1 lore.

[Voss]

I do think it's worth bearing in mind that we have absolutely no indications that the gods we interact with are even close to omniscient. I'd even go far enough to say that they don't really seem to know more than the Engwithans they used to be. 

 

I'd suggest they know less, but the Engwithans seem to have been a profoundly stupid, panicky people.

Well, we didn't find an absolute answer to the question of everything, time for the mass suicide ritual.  Fetch the kids.

 

 

 

@NocturnalTrance- 

 

I do think its badly written.  The side quests are fun.  But Obsidian's main storylines are consistently terrible, an incoherent mass of misunderstood, pithy tidbits from philosophy 101 courses, all the way back to KotoR2.    The watcher, gods and soul nonsense are pure gibberish with no relevance to anything.  There is a lot of human-relevant stuff in the faction conflicts, and had it focused on that and had a standard adventurer as a main character getting involved in a slowly deeping political mess, the game could have been amazing.  But it needed better pacing and didn't need the distraction of the 'main story' fragment.

 

But instead it loses track of the interesting bits in favor of incoherent fantasy navelgazing on souls, and forces the unexplained Chosen One to watch as impotent gods put on a very silly pantomime of failure.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Voss

[Selky]

The Rymrgand ending was certainly satisfying. Shame about the others...

[Inigo Montoya]

So...let's recap shall we? A massive, massive retcon that doesn't really make much sense when you think about it for any length of time. An apocalyptic implication for the rest of the world that might be lessened by the DLC. And to top it off, a main story that could have resolved itself we had just simply followed Eothas around and took pictures like it was a pleasure cruise.

I'm really disappointed.

[FecklessFool]

I am late to the party but all I can say for the main quest is that it is the longest prologue ever.

 

That is basically what it was, a prologue. The main plot could  have happened while the Watcher was asleep. And then the gods wake him up telling him to ship out to the Deadfire Archipelago to sort out the thing that happened, and now he has to navigate the political landscape of the gods as he finds out where Eothas went after he did the thing and to find clues on how to fix it. 

[Hazmy]

My personal take on the story: 

• Something clearly existed before the Engwithans, and to speculate according to the timeline our races lived for about 19,000 Years - The Engwithans lived before that and there is no information. Let's assume they had AT LEAST as much so another 19,000 years.
  
  This alone, is enough evidence to me, that there was clearly something before the wheel was created by the Engwithans and it can't be as dramatic as the gods make it out to be, or it's an armageddon scale holy end of the world in hundreds of  thousands of years. @Aramintai   mentioned there were no gods before the Engwithan ones, that is not true. The game only says that the Engwithans were arrogant enough that if they didn't find the gods, then there must be none - that's another take on how arrogant they were.

Now my take on all that is, the Engwithans just simply did not like that life was uncontrolled and caused chaotic civilizations ( As Thaos said also ), they wanted all nations to work together and form a civilized united Eora striving for advancement, and so their plan started - to control life.

 

Without typing too much non-sense:

 

1. The gods are programmed beings - they talk according to what aspects they have been programmed for, such as Rymrgand will always say death is coming and it will take everyone, as that is his being. He is forced to say that bull**** - and through the years of lies and arrogance, they made themselves believe that if the wheel get destroyed, life ends with it aswell. Obviously Berath will say the Wheel is important since it's practically Berath himself, she is a machine, she can't say anything that is against her own nature. ( This was in Pillars 1 I clearly remember being said that the machines are not super AIs and they have programmed personalities. )
2. Eothas realized the lie they have been feeding themselves and decided to end the arrogant rule of the Engwithans as they have made a huge mistake by thinking they can control life and it must end, so that people can realize themselves it is not the way - and from the fear of being destroyed the other gods fell even more into their delusions and told the same to the Watcher.
3. Eothas is the God of Rebirth, which also symbolizes to me more that he is seeking to end the rule of gods so that current Eora can bloom to a new life, without being shackled by the wheel and the gods, so that people can learn that the wheel is not necessary.
4. My final recognition - The ending credits did not mention, not even by 1 word that something chaotic happened after the wheel got destroyed, life did not change by any means, emphasizing to me even more that it was just a final cling to their ''life'' by the Engwithans.

 

The TLDR for me and how I look at this story : It's the story of the final downfall of the Engwithans and the destruction of their legacy on Eora. 

I hope the story will get more clear later, for now this is my story.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Hazmy

[Greensleeve]

I should've been more clear: the concepts of all the gods predate the actual gods. Eothas says they only usurped existing archetypes.

 

PoE2 says the Wheel as a concept predates the gods. All evidence points to the gods just not having all the information, and that we shouldn't take anything they say at face value.

 

That includes there not being any reincarnation without the Wheel.

 

It also reinforces the theme of the gods being squabbling children with way too much power.

[Veevoir]

I am late to the party but all I can say for the main quest is that it is the longest prologue ever.

 

That is basically what it was, a prologue. The main plot could  have happened while the Watcher was asleep. And then the gods wake him up telling him to ship out to the Deadfire Archipelago to sort out the thing that happened, and now he has to navigate the political landscape of the gods as he finds out where Eothas went after he did the thing and to find clues on how to fix it. 

Lol, thinking about it - it would make a better premise for PoE II if Eothas indeed destroyed the wheel while you are still recovering from destruction of Caed Nua.. and your role is to find out how to fix it.

 

But I guess that is the plot of PoE 3 Deadfire 2

[Zeitzbach]

 

I am late to the party but all I can say for the main quest is that it is the longest prologue ever.

 

That is basically what it was, a prologue. The main plot could  have happened while the Watcher was asleep. And then the gods wake him up telling him to ship out to the Deadfire Archipelago to sort out the thing that happened, and now he has to navigate the political landscape of the gods as he finds out where Eothas went after he did the thing and to find clues on how to fix it. 

Lol, thinking about it - it would make a better premise for PoE II if Eothas indeed destroyed the wheel while you are still recovering from destruction of Caed Nua.. and your role is to find out how to fix it.

 

But I guess that is the plot of PoE 3 Deadfire 2

 

 

PoE 3 will probably take you to the Living Land as

 

1) That's a new location with tons of oddities that will probably be affected by the destruction of the wheel allowing mortal to actually get to them now.

2) You sent a few npcs to the living land, especially the Vailian director/governor who will be there to shout at you.

3) From the list of potential returning npcs

 

-Maia is done

-Xoti is done.

-Tehaku is done

-Eder is somewhat done and anymore would really be pushing it with him. If he appears it's because he's iconic.

-Aloth is still leaden key related so he can appear again.

-Pallegina has a chance because she's THE Vailian char and they will probably send her to explore all the changes and see if the Vailian Republic can take advantage of it.

-Serafen is traveling there so he can be there (I'm bias with this one)

[BrokenMask]

Well Eothas does task Eder with protecting Watcher, so Eder is pretty much's Watcher's biggest buddy by this point so he will probably show up as long as Watcher is main character.

[E.RedMark]

Well Eothas does task Eder with protecting Watcher, so Eder is pretty much's Watcher's biggest buddy by this point so he will probably show up as long as Watcher is main character.

make you wonder , if you have - 2 with him . Does Eotha still play match maker 

[Zeitzbach]

The E in PoE stands for Eder then.

 

Pillar of Eder.

That sound like a terrible gay porn.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Zeitzbach

[stratigo]

The E in PoE stands for Eder then.

 

Pillar of Eder.

That sound like a terrible gay porn.

I'd watch it

[Thetis]

some people in there should really learn something about "sources" especially when talking about retconning

 

literally almost all informations we have about the wheel or lore in general comes from in game characters which all have they own agenda, motives and so on, these are all things considered not trustworthy sources

 

we have no writer, dev or whatever conforming anything as these questions are most likely answered in a DLC or PoE3, you guys really think the devs or writers did not expect this question to raise up? .. please, its literally the first thing that comes to mind..

 

the poe 3 plot will most likely all be around a "new" reincarnation circle, maybe revert it back to a state before the wheel (if there was one), maybe just restore it, or maybe create something new, etc pp

 

all i want for poe3 is the option to tinker with the wheel once you unlock your 20+ mechanics skill to fuel all the souls into yourself so you can ascend to godhood and bash wodicas face in

 

*shrug*

Edited May 16, 2018 by Thetis

[Icesong]

My final recognition - The ending credits did not mention, not even by 1 word that something chaotic happened after the wheel got destroyed, life did not change by any means, emphasizing to me even more that it was just a final cling to their ''life'' by the Engwithans.

 

No one said that destroying the Wheel would result in immediate chaos. In fact, they said it would take awhile. The Wheel moved souls from the In-Between to the Beyond, and from the Beyond the souls flow to Eora independent of the Wheel. Even without receiving further souls from the In-Between the Beyond still has a reserve to supply Eora with.

[Vath]

Well, we know that there was *something* before the gods.

 

The whole point of The Wheel is that it brings souls from across the planet to Ukaizo for processing, hence the presence of luminous adra only in the Deadfire region; it's full of soul energy. We know that adra is natural and it has some intrinsic relationship to soul energy, despite whatever meddling kith get up to. Remember the piece of living adra you stand on to talk to Eothas? It's grown over thousands of years towards the centre of The Wheel.

 

It's likely that when the Engwithans that became the gods ascended, they ceased to be the people that they were, and lost whatever memories that they had, perhaps purposefully, so that none of them would abuse their new powers and muck about with The Whee.... oops. This combined with the mass extinction of native life in Ukaizo/ The Deadfire immediately afterwards, and The Leaden Key's activities would ensure that knowledge was lost for good.

 

Also, the giant skeletons at the base of The Wheel with a few missing was an interesting detail, thoughts?