First impression on full ability tree

[Takkik]

I was super hyped by multiclassing, and like I said before a bit unimpressed by tier 8-9 abilities for some classes, but now I think about it there is one huge annoying drawback about multiclassing I never considered before : you unlock tier 6 à level 16 and tier 7 à 19. I don't know when you're supposed to reach max level, but I got the feeling that mean you unlock these abilities late/end game.

Some classes don't have much abilities at tier 7, but others have lot of cool ones at this tier, and if you multiclasse you can only get 2 & 1 ability points at this tier.

 

A single classe character you can enjoy earlier and for a longer time tier 6-7 abilities. A solo chanter can begin to restor resource points at level 13 with the upgraded spell that give brilliant ispiration (if the inspiration haven't changed).

 

If you're planing to multiclasse you need to mostly consider abilities from tier 1-5 for most of the game.

[Kaylon]

The ranger class looks like a big joke... 

[lunattic]

 

After studying the talent trees some more, I have to say that a fighter/paladin (any dual wielding one) multiclass seems REALLY strong. Bonus points for moon godlike, assuming the healing from their racial scales.

 

You get:

-Deep faith + the fighter inspired defense buff (level 6 upgrade extends the effect any time you're hit) > an eventual blanket +40 ? to all your defenses all the time, assuming you're tanking.

-dual wielding + armored grace, meaning you can potentially wear the heaviest armor with very low recovery (like a normal fighter).

-Constant recovery + white flames (if kind wayfarers) + potentially Lay on Hands to heal yourself, or the upgraded armor aura for extra healing. 

-The paladin armor passive for + 2 armor to the last incoming damage type. 

-The fighter defensive stance for +3 enemies engaged and -5% damage taken per enemy, upgrade knocks prone enemies who try to disengage.

-The best damage buff in the game (I think) with disciplined barrage, generating you tons of crits.

-Adding to this, you get fighter weapon specialisation + retribution for even more damage.

-One of the best auto AOE damage spells in sacred immolation (assuming the self damage it deals is a lower than listed, a UI bug like disintegrate)

-A very good, spammable full attack with low cost in flames of devotion (even though it was nerfed in both accuracy and damage), potentially buffing allies too with the upgrade. 

-A very powerful battlefield mobility tool in charge (as seen in the developer playthrough, this teleports the fighter to an enemy and somehow does like 8 attacks, even though it says it's a regular full attack).

 

And assuming the DLC adds at least one more tier of abilities and allows multiclass characters to reach level 8 abilities in the future, you get:

-Another extremely powerful selfbuff, the fighter one which adds all 6 basic inspirations to you at once (+5 to all stats for 30+int bonus seconds).

-Another paladin armor passive which adds +1 more armor every 6 seconds while standing still

-The paladin passive which allows you to self-ressurrect if you somehow manage to die. 

 

I'll probably make this my second character, or build pallegrina as a hybrid in my first run (it is in her potential class combo). Even if she's undoubtedly very poorly statted again, I think the classes are so poweful together that it will work. 

 

I'm planning Crusader for my first game and I agree with you, it looks awesome.  Also, even though I won't reach the Paladin self rez, I think I can still get the Fighter self rez Unbreakable at PL 7, correct?  Although that may come pretty late in the game.

 

I just can't decide on the subclass I want.  Originally I was thinking full on tank... Unbroken & Shield breaker with sword & shield but maybe I could let a companion be the tank and I can be more dual wield / melee dps??    

 

 

Good catch, I forgot that one So you already have a self ress at level 7, even. 

 

In this hybrid I'd go for dual wielding. You have so much armor and healing from both talent trees that I don't see you needing a shield, and you can always pick kind wayfares to add *2* party aoe heals to each flames of devotion you use (it's a full attack, so both the attack and heal trigger twice). Shields also lower your accuracy, and with the fighter stance adding both +3 enemies engaged and -5% damage taken per engaged enemy on top of everything else I really don't see why you'd ever want to use a shield. I can see you tanking just as well as Eder while also having more damage than him, if he's a shield using pure fighter. And having both melees isn't a bad idea depending on the rest of the party makeup. I'm planning to use Eder + me + aloth + xoti + the ranger companion so i'm lacking a second melee. 

[AndreaColombo]

I don't know when you're supposed to reach max level, but I got the feeling that mean you unlock these abilities late/end game.

 

They said during the Fig campaign that the game would have enough high-level content to enjoy the endgame abilities. Additionally, IIRC Josh mentioned either on Tumblr or in one of the QA streams that if you do a completionist run, you max out earlier than the end of the game. Not sure how quickly, but I'm sure there won't be any shortage of content to use those abilities.

[hilfazer]

The ranger class looks like a big joke... 

 

B-but... Twin Arrows Shot has no accuracy penalty and works with any ranged weapon!

[theBalthazar]

For single class, all depends of the evolution into the game for xp.

 

If you are at the limit XP at the end. Indeed single class stay with a great advantage.

 

If you are level 20 at 70 % of the game, not so much the case.

 

I hope an item to allow level 8 for multiclass like said above (Idea of Andrea in another topic and lunattic here).

 

Level 9 is powerful but less important. All crucial abilities are level 8. Level 9 stay for single, and the same item boost single in an other way (Power level, special abilities etc.)

Edited May 6, 2018 by theBalthazar

[kbot]

Rogues and rangers are still-that-one-class-you-only-multiclass.

 

I don't know how wizard sub-classes are unchanged.

 

Monks and chanters look super awesome. Bets are on beckoner being nerfed.

 

I don't have any at-a-glance complaints about the rest of the classes, they seem mostly fine and/or more interesting than their PoE1 counterparts (I'm looking at you, fighters).

 

I really just don't understand the wizard sub-classes.. was there anything ever said on the rational for them being so.... meh?

Edited May 6, 2018 by kbot

[Kaylon]

 

The ranger class looks like a big joke... 

 

B-but... Twin Arrows Shot has no accuracy penalty and works with any ranged weapon!

 

And can be used only 2-3 times per fight... 

[Boeroer]

Maybe it's worthwhile in combination with Driving Flight?

 

Why the heck did they change it from passive to active? Those active abilities that all do quite the same (deal damage with one attack) but compete for resources are just stupid.

 

If the high level stuff is better than the low level stuff you don't want to take the low level stuff and wait till later (except when retraining). If the low level stuff is good you won't ever pick some other of those attack abilities. 

 

Modals/buffs with durations and such: all cool. But why giving rangers Wounding Shot and then later Twinned Shot as active attack. Why?

 

Same with rogue and the strikes. Why would I want to spend points on three to four different strike abilities? Especially if one of them only costs 1 guile and the others 2 or even 3(!)?.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Boeroer

[Erik Dirk]

Empowered Strike.... +100 penetration, seems a little excessive.
Also I wonder if resonate touch will work with any AOE melee abilities.

[dunehunter]

Maybe it's worthwhile in combination with Driving Flight?

 

Why the heck did they change it from passive to active? Those active abilities that all do quite the same (deal damage with one attack) but compete for resources are just stupid.

 

If the high level stuff is better than the low level stuff you don't want to take the low level stuff and wait till later (except when retraining). If the low level stuff is good you won't ever pick some other of those attack abilities. 

 

Modals/buffs with durations and such: all cool. But why giving rangers Wounding Shot and then later Twinned Shot as active attack. Why?

 

Same with rogue and the strikes. Why would I want to spend points on three to four different strike abilities? Especially if one of them only costs 1 guile and the others 2 or even 3(!)?.

 

So true.

 

Barbarian has: Frenzy(self-buff), Shout(aoe CC), Leap(motility), Heart of Fury(aoe nuke), Savage Defiance(self-healing);

 

Monk has: Swift Strike(self-buff), Duality(modal), Torment reach(aoe CC), Palegellant's path(motility), Inner Death(single target nuke), Whipser of wind(aoe nuke);

 

Rogue: Smoke Cloud(aoe CC), different strikes, Escape. No aoe nuke, no self-buff, no modals;

 

Ranger: Same as rogue different shots, Evasive roll. Also no aoe nuke, no self-buff, no modals. At least I expect something like Arrow rain. 

 

Even figher has all of these sweet things covered, they have self-buff, aoe CC/nuke, motility and super tanky.

Edited May 6, 2018 by dunehunter

[hilfazer]

 

Why the heck did they change it from passive to active?

 

 

Because "OMG soo OP! We have to destroy balance it."

Balance by destruction, not the first time and not the last.

 

BTW what's the deal with this "Paralyzed (Petrified)" that some spells (like druid's Embrace of the Earth Talon) do? Knowing Obsidian petrification got destroyed and is now an alias for paralysis. I hope it's not the case.

[JerekKruger]

Because "OMG soo OP! We have to destroy balance it."

Balance by destruction, not the first time and not the last.

 

Yeah, I sometimes feel like Obsidian forget that fun should (usually) take precedence over balance in a single player game.

[Urthor]

Rogue has the sneak attack mechanic

 

Ranger has a pet

 

They're "balancing" the class by making your abilities less powerful, because you are supposed to be taking out a guy with sneak attack as a rogue, meaning every fight has 1 less guy, and you have a pet who tanks for you as a ranger.  

 

Ergo a ranger will do far less DPS than a Monk/Fighter/etc because otherwise the fights are too easy for him if he had the same output as a Monk with a pet as well.  

Edited May 6, 2018 by Urthor

[Takkik]

Maybe it's worthwhile in combination with Driving Flight?

 

Why the heck did they change it from passive to active? Those active abilities that all do quite the same (deal damage with one attack) but compete for resources are just stupid.

 

If the high level stuff is better than the low level stuff you don't want to take the low level stuff and wait till later (except when retraining). If the low level stuff is good you won't ever pick some other of those attack abilities. 

 

Modals/buffs with durations and such: all cool. But why giving rangers Wounding Shot and then later Twinned Shot as active attack. Why?

 

Same with rogue and the strikes. Why would I want to spend points on three to four different strike abilities? Especially if one of them only costs 1 guile and the others 2 or even 3(!)?.

I agree, the rogue/ranger abilities make sens with a per encounter use. Why use high level abilities when you can spam low level ones a lot more?

 

- the rogue miss some classic fan of knifes, or knife throwing (plus upgrade for bounce.) and some aoe strike.

 

- for the ranger, I was thinking about a combined strike : you attack an enemy and if your animal companion is in range it get a free full attack on the target. A modal for the animal companion, switching him from an offensive stance to a defensive stance (wich give you a bonus if the animal is near you). Even if you have passives that do the same thing, I find a modal more dynamic and invole some decision from you.

Animal spirit : you invoc the spirit totem of your animal, and you get a buff depending of the type of animal.

Animal form : You transform in the same form as your animal companion and you get a bonus to fight near him. You can't cast spell but you can use weapon abilities. Weaker than druid shapeshifting, but when you're near your animal companion enemies attacking you have a chance to hit the companion instead of you (some sort of mirror image).

push back : a cheap melee attack that knockback and stun and that you can use with a ranged weapon (like the grimoire slam for the wizard).

And you could have some classic ranged attack like rain of projectiles, fan attack...

 

Like I said previously, the ranger tree feel very uninspired.

 

 

A little side question : How modal upgrades work? can you only get one upgrade (like for other abilities) or can you unlock them all?

[Andronidas]

Maybe it's worthwhile in combination with Driving Flight?

 

Why the heck did they change it from passive to active? Those active abilities that all do quite the same (deal damage with one attack) but compete for resources are just stupid.

 

If the high level stuff is better than the low level stuff you don't want to take the low level stuff and wait till later (except when retraining). If the low level stuff is good you won't ever pick some other of those attack abilities. 

 

Modals/buffs with durations and such: all cool. But why giving rangers Wounding Shot and then later Twinned Shot as active attack. Why?

 

Same with rogue and the strikes. Why would I want to spend points on three to four different strike abilities? Especially if one of them only costs 1 guile and the others 2 or even 3(!)?.

 

Well personally I think it becomes way too diablo-ish if the archer constantly shoots out multiple arrows that penetrate and find new targets, so I like it - maybe change the cost though.

 

You could also make the argument that the other actives have utility - Wounding Shot for making your companion do extra damage, Headshot and upgrade for debuffing and interrupting enemy and then the rest of the time twin shot.

 

Edit: You could also change Twin Shots to "On Crit" or something like that.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Andronidas

[JerekKruger]

If they really didn't want to make Twinned Shot a modal they could have had it be a temporary buff. Use the ability and for X seconds you fire two shots rather than one.

[TheMetaphysician]

 

Monks and chanters look super awesome. Bets are on beckoner being nerfed.

 

 

Honestly, if they nerf beckoner at all, troubadour will turn out to be better at summoning, which would be ironic. Troubadour is already better at summoning the highest-level summons: it can keep that power level 9 dragon up all the time, while the beckoner has no shot at that.

Edited May 6, 2018 by TheMetaphysician

[GamerSerg]

 

 

After studying the talent trees some more, I have to say that a fighter/paladin (any dual wielding one) multiclass seems REALLY strong. Bonus points for moon godlike, assuming the healing from their racial scales.

 

You get:

-Deep faith + the fighter inspired defense buff (level 6 upgrade extends the effect any time you're hit) > an eventual blanket +40 ? to all your defenses all the time, assuming you're tanking.

-dual wielding + armored grace, meaning you can potentially wear the heaviest armor with very low recovery (like a normal fighter).

-Constant recovery + white flames (if kind wayfarers) + potentially Lay on Hands to heal yourself, or the upgraded armor aura for extra healing. 

-The paladin armor passive for + 2 armor to the last incoming damage type. 

-The fighter defensive stance for +3 enemies engaged and -5% damage taken per enemy, upgrade knocks prone enemies who try to disengage.

-The best damage buff in the game (I think) with disciplined barrage, generating you tons of crits.

-Adding to this, you get fighter weapon specialisation + retribution for even more damage.

-One of the best auto AOE damage spells in sacred immolation (assuming the self damage it deals is a lower than listed, a UI bug like disintegrate)

-A very good, spammable full attack with low cost in flames of devotion (even though it was nerfed in both accuracy and damage), potentially buffing allies too with the upgrade. 

-A very powerful battlefield mobility tool in charge (as seen in the developer playthrough, this teleports the fighter to an enemy and somehow does like 8 attacks, even though it says it's a regular full attack).

 

And assuming the DLC adds at least one more tier of abilities and allows multiclass characters to reach level 8 abilities in the future, you get:

-Another extremely powerful selfbuff, the fighter one which adds all 6 basic inspirations to you at once (+5 to all stats for 30+int bonus seconds).

-Another paladin armor passive which adds +1 more armor every 6 seconds while standing still

-The paladin passive which allows you to self-ressurrect if you somehow manage to die. 

 

I'll probably make this my second character, or build pallegrina as a hybrid in my first run (it is in her potential class combo). Even if she's undoubtedly very poorly statted again, I think the classes are so poweful together that it will work. 

 

I'm planning Crusader for my first game and I agree with you, it looks awesome.  Also, even though I won't reach the Paladin self rez, I think I can still get the Fighter self rez Unbreakable at PL 7, correct?  Although that may come pretty late in the game.

 

I just can't decide on the subclass I want.  Originally I was thinking full on tank... Unbroken & Shield breaker with sword & shield but maybe I could let a companion be the tank and I can be more dual wield / melee dps??    

 

 

Good catch, I forgot that one So you already have a self ress at level 7, even. 

 

In this hybrid I'd go for dual wielding. You have so much armor and healing from both talent trees that I don't see you needing a shield, and you can always pick kind wayfares to add *2* party aoe heals to each flames of devotion you use (it's a full attack, so both the attack and heal trigger twice). Shields also lower your accuracy, and with the fighter stance adding both +3 enemies engaged and -5% damage taken per engaged enemy on top of everything else I really don't see why you'd ever want to use a shield. I can see you tanking just as well as Eder while also having more damage than him, if he's a shield using pure fighter. And having both melees isn't a bad idea depending on the rest of the party makeup. I'm planning to use Eder + me + aloth + xoti + the ranger companion so i'm lacking a second melee. 

 

 

I think you have convinced me.  I was also thinking the fighter stance that adds +3 engagement should be fine when needed, no need for the + engagement from the sub classes on top of that.  Maybe dual wielding hatchets would be almost as good as having a shield anyway? Kind Wayfarer sounds good but I may not take a Fighter subclass.  Devoted sounds great but on my first play through I want to be free to use whatever cool weapon I find next.

 

In fact your party looks similar to what I had in mind (great minds think alike).  I'm thinking my Crusader, then Eder (maybe fighter/rogue), Aloth (pure wizard), Xoti (is monk/priest enough healing or do I need full priest).  For the last spot I will probably rotate people in and out, maybe a Witch (barbarian/cipher) or druid.

[Maxzero]

I was super hyped by multiclassing, and like I said before a bit unimpressed by tier 8-9 abilities for some classes, but now I think about it there is one huge annoying drawback about multiclassing I never considered before : you unlock tier 6 à level 16 and tier 7 à 19. I don't know when you're supposed to reach max level, but I got the feeling that mean you unlock these abilities late/end game.

Some classes don't have much abilities at tier 7, but others have lot of cool ones at this tier, and if you multiclasse you can only get 2 & 1 ability points at this tier.

 

A single classe character you can enjoy earlier and for a longer time tier 6-7 abilities. A solo chanter can begin to restor resource points at level 13 with the upgraded spell that give brilliant ispiration (if the inspiration haven't changed).

 

If you're planing to multiclasse you need to mostly consider abilities from tier 1-5 for most of the game.

 

Judging by the size of the map reaching max level might not be that hard.

 

But yes builds that actually start functioning earlier is something that I feel a lot of theorycrafters forget to take into account.

 

We are not starting at level 6+ in the release.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Maxzero

[lunattic]

 

 

 

After studying the talent trees some more, I have to say that a fighter/paladin (any dual wielding one) multiclass seems REALLY strong. Bonus points for moon godlike, assuming the healing from their racial scales.

 

You get:

-Deep faith + the fighter inspired defense buff (level 6 upgrade extends the effect any time you're hit) > an eventual blanket +40 ? to all your defenses all the time, assuming you're tanking.

-dual wielding + armored grace, meaning you can potentially wear the heaviest armor with very low recovery (like a normal fighter).

-Constant recovery + white flames (if kind wayfarers) + potentially Lay on Hands to heal yourself, or the upgraded armor aura for extra healing. 

-The paladin armor passive for + 2 armor to the last incoming damage type. 

-The fighter defensive stance for +3 enemies engaged and -5% damage taken per enemy, upgrade knocks prone enemies who try to disengage.

-The best damage buff in the game (I think) with disciplined barrage, generating you tons of crits.

-Adding to this, you get fighter weapon specialisation + retribution for even more damage.

-One of the best auto AOE damage spells in sacred immolation (assuming the self damage it deals is a lower than listed, a UI bug like disintegrate)

-A very good, spammable full attack with low cost in flames of devotion (even though it was nerfed in both accuracy and damage), potentially buffing allies too with the upgrade. 

-A very powerful battlefield mobility tool in charge (as seen in the developer playthrough, this teleports the fighter to an enemy and somehow does like 8 attacks, even though it says it's a regular full attack).

 

And assuming the DLC adds at least one more tier of abilities and allows multiclass characters to reach level 8 abilities in the future, you get:

-Another extremely powerful selfbuff, the fighter one which adds all 6 basic inspirations to you at once (+5 to all stats for 30+int bonus seconds).

-Another paladin armor passive which adds +1 more armor every 6 seconds while standing still

-The paladin passive which allows you to self-ressurrect if you somehow manage to die. 

 

I'll probably make this my second character, or build pallegrina as a hybrid in my first run (it is in her potential class combo). Even if she's undoubtedly very poorly statted again, I think the classes are so poweful together that it will work. 

 

I'm planning Crusader for my first game and I agree with you, it looks awesome.  Also, even though I won't reach the Paladin self rez, I think I can still get the Fighter self rez Unbreakable at PL 7, correct?  Although that may come pretty late in the game.

 

I just can't decide on the subclass I want.  Originally I was thinking full on tank... Unbroken & Shield breaker with sword & shield but maybe I could let a companion be the tank and I can be more dual wield / melee dps??    

 

 

Good catch, I forgot that one So you already have a self ress at level 7, even. 

 

In this hybrid I'd go for dual wielding. You have so much armor and healing from both talent trees that I don't see you needing a shield, and you can always pick kind wayfares to add *2* party aoe heals to each flames of devotion you use (it's a full attack, so both the attack and heal trigger twice). Shields also lower your accuracy, and with the fighter stance adding both +3 enemies engaged and -5% damage taken per engaged enemy on top of everything else I really don't see why you'd ever want to use a shield. I can see you tanking just as well as Eder while also having more damage than him, if he's a shield using pure fighter. And having both melees isn't a bad idea depending on the rest of the party makeup. I'm planning to use Eder + me + aloth + xoti + the ranger companion so i'm lacking a second melee. 

 

 

I think you have convinced me.  I was also thinking the fighter stance that adds +3 engagement should be fine when needed, no need for the + engagement from the sub classes on top of that.  Maybe dual wielding hatchets would be almost as good as having a shield anyway? Kind Wayfarer sounds good but I may not take a Fighter subclass.  Devoted sounds great but on my first play through I want to be free to use whatever cool weapon I find next.

 

In fact your party looks similar to what I had in mind (great minds think alike).  I'm thinking my Crusader, then Eder (maybe fighter/rogue), Aloth (pure wizard), Xoti (is monk/priest enough healing or do I need full priest).  For the last spot I will probably rotate people in and out, maybe a Witch (barbarian/cipher) or druid.

 

 

Thanks I'm probably also not taking a fighter subclass as it's probably indeed better to be able to equip and use anything without a penalty. Or switch to other damage types when needed. Devoted is something probably better used on second playthroughs when you know where everything is. 

 

Eder as a swashbuckler is an interesting idea I might go with too. He can perhaps dual wield hatchets or hatchet + dagger with dagger modal (adds +10 melee deflection at the cost of -25% damage with the dagger, which for a dual wielding tank seems really good), and then abuse reposte and some of the rogue cc abilites. 

[dunehunter]

Rogue has the sneak attack mechanic

 

Ranger has a pet

 

They're "balancing" the class by making your abilities less powerful, because you are supposed to be taking out a guy with sneak attack as a rogue, meaning every fight has 1 less guy, and you have a pet who tanks for you as a ranger.  

 

Ergo a ranger will do far less DPS than a Monk/Fighter/etc because otherwise the fights are too easy for him if he had the same output as a Monk with a pet as well.  

 

I can make the same argument that Monk has two source pool, Monk has best autoattacks, Barbarian has Carnage. It shouldn't be the reason that one class's ability tree is much superior that another.

 

Every class has a start trait, your argument that because rogue/ranger has a start trait so they should have less powerful ability sounds so plain to me

Edited May 6, 2018 by dunehunter

[Urthor]

I mean that's the intention I feel, question is whether that's going overboard on Obsidian's part.  Now that I think about it, Ranger might just be "we are implementing all the PoE1 abilities in Ranger cool story" even though unlike priest all of the Ranger abilities aren't spells and have to be purchased, and there were a lot of different modal shots n business for rangers in PoE1 if I recall correctly (I hate playing rangers).  

 

I'm sure the balance brigade will come through though, it's pretty clear that the lvl 8 and 9 abilities aren't as well balanced as the multiclassing because there wasn't a 6 month backer beta with people breaking classes.  RIP +60% bleak walker Flames of Devotion.  

[CottonWolf]

Eder as a swashbuckler is an interesting idea I might go with too. He can perhaps dual wield hatchets or hatchet + dagger with dagger modal (adds +10 melee deflection at the cost of -25% damage with the dagger, which for a dual wielding tank seems really good), and then abuse reposte and some of the rogue cc abilites.

 

That's exactly what I'm going. Hatchet/Dagger for riposte abuse.

[Voss]

 

Eder as a swashbuckler is an interesting idea I might go with too. He can perhaps dual wield hatchets or hatchet + dagger with dagger modal (adds +10 melee deflection at the cost of -25% damage with the dagger, which for a dual wielding tank seems really good), and then abuse reposte and some of the rogue cc abilites.

 

That's exactly what I'm going. Hatchet/Dagger for riposte abuse.

Boeroer commented on riposte elsewhere. It only has a 20% proc chance on a miss (and nothing on a graze or higher) Abuse it, you will not. Edited May 7, 2018 by Voss