Politics Thread: Edge of Seventeen

[Guard Dog]

You all know how much I despise the both the Democrats and the Republicans. The former a bit more than the latter true. This is one example of why: they are not about anything other than exploiting talking points to get into power. To wit https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/article/Republican-candidates-run-against-a-capital-run-12890987.php. Republican primary candidates running against incumbents promising to "drain the swamp". Of course the swamp is now completely controlled by Republicans and is as swampy as ever. Somehow people seem to miss that one. 

 

It's a problem when you are not "about" anything but getting into power. The republicans tell you illegal immigrants are your enemy. The democrats tell you people who have more money than you are your enemy. Of course without mentioning 31 of the 50 wealthiest congress members, multi-millionaires all, are democrats. Not bad for career public servants whose salaries have never exceeded $223,500 per year, the current top pay for a senior congressional rep/senator. 

 

Like I said earlier, when you've got nothing else you go with what you know. The sad thing is, the real enemy is the institution itself. We can't live without it, true enough. But we can't live with it in it's current state either. But no one seems interested in pulling it's fangs so I guess we go one like this until... something. 

[smjjames]

Not surprising that they are attempting to emulate Trump what with the 'drain the swamp' (where he's done completely the opposite) rhetoric and the whole outsider status thing. Course, like Obama was for the Democrats, trying to be Trump only works for Trump.

[Valsuelm]

You all know how much I despise the both the Democrats and the Republicans. The former a bit more than the latter true. This is one example of why: they are not about anything other than exploiting talking points to get into power. To wit https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/article/Republican-candidates-run-against-a-capital-run-12890987.php. Republican primary candidates running against incumbents promising to "drain the swamp". Of course the swamp is now completely controlled by Republicans and is as swampy as ever. Somehow people seem to miss that one. 

 

It's a problem when you are not "about" anything but getting into power. The republicans tell you illegal immigrants are your enemy. The democrats tell you people who have more money than you are your enemy. Of course without mentioning 31 of the 50 wealthiest congress members, multi-millionaires all, are democrats. Not bad for career public servants whose salaries have never exceeded $223,500 per year, the current top pay for a senior congressional rep/senator. 

 

Like I said earlier, when you've got nothing else you go with what you know. The sad thing is, the real enemy is the institution itself. We can't live without it, true enough. But we can't live with it in it's current state either. But no one seems interested in pulling it's fangs so I guess we go one like this until... something. 

 

Gun sales haven't been up the last few years just because....

[Guard Dog]

Well, let's hope it never comes to that. Although that is one of the real purposes of the 2nd Amend. 

[HoonDing]

Anyone ever used a 2nd amendment defense after shooting a public official?

[Guard Dog]

Anyone ever used a 2nd amendment defense after shooting a public official?

  That would fly like a lead zeppelin. The right to have it does not extend to the right to use it lime that. Although some have tried claimed POW status following assassination attempts. That didn't work either. 

 

Besides, if the unthinkable SHTF situation ever does occur there are no courts or laws and due process is a bullet. 

[Zoraptor]

Iran Deal decision coming soon.

 

Poor old Saad Hariri looks to have lost the Lebanese elections rather badly, his party lost 1/3 of its members and the Amal/ Hezbollah alliance has a majority now in prelim results. Who would have thought that kidnapping the guy and forcing him to resign would have had negative political consequences instead of positive ones. Not Mohammed bin Salman, political genius, apparently. To compound things Hariri isn't even a billionaire any more since MbS apparently seized the Saudi assets of his construction company.

[Pidesco]

So Oliver North is the new president of the NRA.

 

What.

[Armanz]

 

Royally pissed about the latest decision in Bayern (basically the Texas of Germany) that all official buildings will be required to have a cross hanging. I'd preach (ha) about seperation of church and state but it's obvious that this isn't a religious choice but a political statement to create a barrier (maybe the wrong choice of words, I'm not sure) against muslim immigrants.

 

Why be pissed about this?

 

Truly, even if you disagree with it, why be pissed?

 

Were you betrayed? Did someone lie to you? Do you live in Bavaria?

 

If you don't live in Bavaria why would you be pissed at something they do there?

 

 

First of all I live in in the civil part of germany, so not bavaria.

Secondly, why would it matter where I live at all? Can't I get pissed at pointless political propaganda misusing christian religion to "oppose" muslim imigrants? Maybe oppose is the wrong word but it's just about making a statement that our country has a different religion. On a sidenote, I hate all religions equally. Which is why it doubly bothers me because there's a freaking seperation of church and state and crosses have no business being enforced to be hung up in government buildings. There's already enough religious crap in germany like the troubles with abortions and such.

I know it's just bavaria and not all of germany but it still pisses me off.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Armanz

[Guard Dog]

So Oliver North is the new president of the NRA.

 

What.

Well, he is famous for getting guns into the hands of people the Democrats did not want to have them.

[Malcador]

Amazing he can show his face, people really do love a uniform

[Pidesco]

 

So Oliver North is the new president of the NRA.

 

What.

Well, he is famous for getting guns into the hands of people the Democrats did not want to have them.

 

 

How is he not universally reviled in the US?

[smjjames]

Seems like an ode to the military-industrial machine rather than gun rights in general.

[ShadySands]

I know I'm not conflating Iran-Contra with gun rights

 

That said, the last guy was pretty terrible and while I'm a big believer in things can always get worse I'm not yet sure that applies in this case

Edited May 8, 2018 by ShadySands

[smjjames]

Never said you were, it just seems like an ode to the military-industrial machine and the international arms industry which I'm not sure the NRA is actually in, or would want to be in.

[Guard Dog]

  OMG now THAT is funny!

[Guard Dog]

 

 

So Oliver North is the new president of the NRA.

 

What.

Well, he is famous for getting guns into the hands of people the Democrats did not want to have them.

 

 

How is he not universally reviled in the US?

 

It's ancient history. The people who were around in those days are too busy trying to pay their bills and keep their kids in college, The one's were were not around have no idea who he is or what the fuss was about.

 

As for me, ooooh the government is corrupt and does things in violation of the constitution. There is a shocker. No one ever wants to seriously discuss stripping it of it's power so I guess everyone is OK with it. As for me, journalist H.L. Mencken said it best: The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out for himself, without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, and intolerable.

[smjjames]

Lol sharp_one.

 

Personally, I don't care who becomes the NRA president, the NRA is gonna be the NRA (and not a member). Though it does seem like an odd choice and at least one other gun supporter I know on another forum did say "what were they smoking when they made that decision?".

[Pidesco]

I don't know who this guy is, but if Malcador and Pidesco don't like him, he must be the greatest person ever.

 

You never heard of the Iran-Contra affair?

 

Copy pasted from the net:

 

The shortest version of it is that the US government (Reagan administration, specifically) - in secret - made deals that provided weapons to groups in Iran (which was under a weapons embargo at the time, meaning nobody in the world could give them arms). The money from those weapons was funnelled to a rebel group (the Contras) in Nicaragua that was fighting the legitimately-elected government of that country (because we didn't like that government's policies). The US was, at the time, explicitly prohibited from giving money directly to the Contras by the Boland Amendment, which is why we resorted to such underhanded tactics in the first place.

During the hearings, which were some of the first major court proceedings to be broadcast live in the United States (possibly the first), there were serious allegations that President Reagan had been involved in the planning and execution of the affair. This, if proven, would have been an impeachable offense and could have brought down one of the US' most popular Presidents. Reagan claimed to not remember having any part in any meetings or ever having been aware of it. He didn't actively deny it, but claimed "I do not recall" eighty-eight times in eight hours of testimony. Oliver North, who was the head of the operation, admitted to having shredded a ton of documents - likely anything that would have linked the scandal to the President - but the exact contents of many of those documents were never fully disclosed and no link to Reagan could ever be proven.

[Guard Dog]

Lol sharp_one.

 

Personally, I don't care who becomes the NRA president, the NRA is gonna be the NRA (and not a member). Though it does seem like an odd choice and at least one other gun supporter I know on another forum did say "what were they smoking when they made that decision?".

Well the NRA President does not actually DO anything. It's a figurehead position. The real power in the NRA is the CEO & Executive Vice President which is currently Wayne LaPierre. And has been for as long as I can remember. He's a political hack that loves stirring up trouble. Exactly what you DON'T want him to do. But his tactic has been to scare people into joining the NRA with the whole "they are coming to take your guns" thing. And I'm not saying he's wrong about that because that is the ultimate end the political left is striving for.  But It's not how I'd handle the messaging if I was in charge. You don't wrestle with pigs. You just get dirty and the pigs like it.

 

But I am in the NRA. And a lifetime member at that. Not because I like them of the leadership but because it's all there is when it comes for the advocacy of 2nd Amendment rights.

[Guard Dog]

 

I don't know who this guy is, but if Malcador and Pidesco don't like him, he must be the greatest person ever.

 

You never heard of the Iran-Contra affair?

 

Copy pasted from the net:

 

The shortest version of it is that the US government (Reagan administration, specifically) - in secret - made deals that provided weapons to groups in Iran (which was under a weapons embargo at the time, meaning nobody in the world could give them arms). The money from those weapons was funnelled to a rebel group (the Contras) in Nicaragua that was fighting the legitimately-elected government of that country (because we didn't like that government's policies). The US was, at the time, explicitly prohibited from giving money directly to the Contras by the Boland Amendment, which is why we resorted to such underhanded tactics in the first place.

During the hearings, which were some of the first major court proceedings to be broadcast live in the United States (possibly the first), there were serious allegations that President Reagan had been involved in the planning and execution of the affair. This, if proven, would have been an impeachable offense and could have brought down one of the US' most popular Presidents. Reagan claimed to not remember having any part in any meetings or ever having been aware of it. He didn't actively deny it, but claimed "I do not recall" eighty-eight times in eight hours of testimony. Oliver North, who was the head of the operation, admitted to having shredded a ton of documents - likely anything that would have linked the scandal to the President - but the exact contents of many of those documents were never fully disclosed and no link to Reagan could ever be proven.

 

Reagan was a "big picture" guy. I believe he was not aware of the details. I suspect it went down something like this:

 

Reagan: "Bob, Id really like to do something to help the Contras out. Would you like a jellybean?"

Robert McFarland (NSA) : "I'll look into it Mr. President"

 

Robert McFarland: "John, how can we get funds to the Contras?"

John Poindexter: "Leave it to me Bob"

 

And on it goes from there

[Matteo89.b]

I think that people should get what they desire.

 

I could argue that guns are wrong and so on, but i know when a battle is lost.

 

So, i say : let americans have their guns. They are happy.

 

I don't know why we Europeans do not allow our citizens to buy fireweapons...i guess we are not intelligent enough.

[smjjames]

 

Lol sharp_one.

 

Personally, I don't care who becomes the NRA president, the NRA is gonna be the NRA (and not a member). Though it does seem like an odd choice and at least one other gun supporter I know on another forum did say "what were they smoking when they made that decision?".

Well the NRA President does not actually DO anything. It's a figurehead position. The real power in the NRA is the CEO & Executive Vice President which is currently Wayne LaPierre. And has been for as long as I can remember. He's a political hack that loves stirring up trouble. Exactly what you DON'T want him to do. But his tactic has been to scare people into joining the NRA with the whole "they are coming to take your guns" thing. And I'm not saying he's wrong about that because that is the ultimate end the political left is striving for.  But It's not how I'd handle the messaging if I was in charge. You don't wrestle with

 

 

Again, that's the EXTREME left (which also tend to be the more vocal, as it is on the other side). Despite the fact that all of the evidence showing that a reduction in guns is the way to go, doing the whole 'feds smash into your house to sieze your guns' nightmare (if they're illegal, that's another matter entirely) that he pushes isn't going to happen. Voluntary buybacks and stuff (which is what Australia did I believe) are fine

[Pidesco]

 

 

I don't know who this guy is, but if Malcador and Pidesco don't like him, he must be the greatest person ever.

 

You never heard of the Iran-Contra affair?

 

Copy pasted from the net:

 

The shortest version of it is that the US government (Reagan administration, specifically) - in secret - made deals that provided weapons to groups in Iran (which was under a weapons embargo at the time, meaning nobody in the world could give them arms). The money from those weapons was funnelled to a rebel group (the Contras) in Nicaragua that was fighting the legitimately-elected government of that country (because we didn't like that government's policies). The US was, at the time, explicitly prohibited from giving money directly to the Contras by the Boland Amendment, which is why we resorted to such underhanded tactics in the first place.

During the hearings, which were some of the first major court proceedings to be broadcast live in the United States (possibly the first), there were serious allegations that President Reagan had been involved in the planning and execution of the affair. This, if proven, would have been an impeachable offense and could have brought down one of the US' most popular Presidents. Reagan claimed to not remember having any part in any meetings or ever having been aware of it. He didn't actively deny it, but claimed "I do not recall" eighty-eight times in eight hours of testimony. Oliver North, who was the head of the operation, admitted to having shredded a ton of documents - likely anything that would have linked the scandal to the President - but the exact contents of many of those documents were never fully disclosed and no link to Reagan could ever be proven.

 

Reagan was a "big picture" guy. I believe he was not aware of the details. I suspect it went down something like this:

 

Reagan: "Bob, Id really like to do something to help the Contras out. Would you like a jellybean?"

Robert McFarland (NSA) : "I'll look into it Mr. President"

 

Robert McFarland: "John, how can we get funds to the Contras?"

John Poindexter: "Leave it to me Bob"

 

And on it goes from there

 

 

From what I've read recently about Reagan I got the impression that he was a very much a figurehead President. More so than other presidents, that is.

 

 

@Matteo89.b: European countries allow citizens to buy firearms. They are not any more restricted than cars.

[Guard Dog]

I'd say that's probably accurate. He definitely was practiced in telling his staff in general what he wanted then going hands off to let them worry about how to do it.