Casters are still slow...

[JFutral]

That was a large part of the appeal of the Druid Storm spells, large AoE and only affected enemies. there were a good number of spells. Many of the AoE spells were only good if you had a small party, but casting time and interrupt was less of an issue.

 

 

Why in the world does anyone _want_ 6 second spells?

 

I'd rather they all be instantaneous. Wouldn't you?

 

Joe

 

 

I don't want the NPCs chain-casting instant AoE disintegration at me, no!

 

I want the game to be fun and challenging. A six second "Big Spell Incoming! Siren! Alert! Alert!" type mechanic with a little popup and suddenly I have a limited amount of time to interrupt the enemy caster's Big Incoming Nuke could be a lot of fun. Vice versa too if I have to defend my casters so they can get their Big Nukes off without the enemy interrupting them. 

 

I don't want it to take eight seconds to cast a ten second charm, though. That's not fun it's just lame.

 

Well, of course I mean that the long casting times are applicable to the enemy and not me. )

 

There are other ways to deal with that, though. What makes certain encounters more challenging, especially the important encounters, is not casting time or interrupt abilities, it is the enemies resistances.

 

This is the problem with such a high priority on balance. That 6+sec spell that is sooo good, is also sooo good for the enemy.

 

If there were some spells similar to BG/ADD where you "pre-load" a limited number and level of spells (I forget what that spell was called), to have moments to counter act casting time, that would be good.

 

Personally I think casting time, recovery time, and interrupt systems are the wrong place to focus. Like I've said before about PoE I my spell casters finally seemed to contribute to the battles vs the BG series. I think that was in large part because of spells in BG that had such long casting times.

 

And without really knowing the reasons why certain spells take longer to cast than others, without some system of justification (I like whoever it was that talked about ritualistic spells inherently needing more time) all this discussion about casting time is arbitrary and abstract.

 

Not that it isn't enjoyable.

 

And that is what is really at stake, right? How much changing these things affects the enjoyability of the game.

 

And right now the new, seemingly arbitrary, reshuffling of casting times has certainly disrupted our old spell casting strategies from PoE I. Maybe that was the rationale for the change.

 

And I think that is what people here like Max's tables, they bring a level of reasonability to something that so far seems unreasonable. Would they make for a more enjoyable game, though? There is no way to tell.

 

Joe

 

Meh! All this got kerfluffled in a very BAMF sort of way. hopefully you can parse out what I was trying to say.

JF

Edited January 2, 2018 by JFutral

[MaxQuest]

Well, of course I mean that the long casting times are applicable to the enemy and not me. )

That's not fair)

 

There are other ways to deal with that, though. What makes certain encounters more challenging, especially the important encounters, is not casting time or interrupt abilities, it is the enemies resistances.

Agreed. High defenses (especially if coupled with high outcoming damage) do indeed add to challenge. So do pre-set enemy immunities as this stresses your usual routine and forces to adapt and be ready for plan B.

 

Although to be fair, casting times and enemy interrupt abilities are also part of challenge. For a solo'ing priest the hardest part was to self-buff in peace, before he can unleash all his damage potential. Also remember those abbey monks and their prones and interrupts.

 

Not that it isn't enjoyable.

 

And that is what is really at stake, right? How much changing these things affects the enjoyability of the game.

Well... PoE1 casting durations were mostly enjoyable.

In current beta though not that much, as most spells/powers do not feel like they are worth the spent time.

 

And right now the new, seemingly arbitrary, reshuffling of casting times has certainly disrupted our old spell casting strategies from PoE I. Maybe that was the rationale for the change.

I doubt the changes in casting durations had disruption as their goal.

The changes are likely being dictated by the new interruption system, and the fact that now vancian casters can throw 2 of their most powerful spells per rank in every encounter without having to worry about spell conservation.

 

Extra:

- Casters have fewer spells to cast now. Once they throw them all, they are dry.

- Interruption is easier and clearer to see if there is a decent time window during which you can interrupt.

- Also random incoming interruptions were making our characters effectively cast slower. Now that they are gone, cast durations were made longer to match that effective average. But on the other hand there were players who were using preemptive hard cc, and thus avoiding all incoming interruptions and thus having no cast slow-downs. So imho, the spells were over-slowed, and especially cipher powers, since ciphers didn't get the ability to cast 2 powers per rank per encounter for free.

 

And I think that is what people here like Max's tables, they bring a level of reasonability to something that so far seems unreasonable. Would they make for a more enjoyable game, though? There is no way to tell.

Well, the main goals is indeed enjoyability, which comes from fun + lack of frustration.

And frustration comes from stepping into a trap option, i.e. making a choice that after some time proves to be unviable, or that makes your character a liability to party.

 

A little reasonability and consistency helps when it comes to estimation, spell comparisson and thus avoiding such situations. Also it reminds me of my last party: I had a priest with 18 dex, and wizard with 17. And when issuing Painful Interdiction with Shadowflame at the same time during pause at the start of combat, I could be sure that enemy defenses would get debuffed before the check for paralyze. I mean durations weren't jumping around, and I could get a consistent result.

 

Meh! All this got kerfluffled in a very BAMF sort of way. hopefully you can parse out what I was trying to say.

Hehe, it happens) Edited January 2, 2018 by MaxQuest

[dunehunter]

Doing a new playthrough with a pale elf GoldPact/Shifter, a moon godlike Unbroken/Soul blade, a nature godlike Evoker and a heart orlan Troubadour/Rogue. The Evoker is pretty powerful at first a few second to battle, Fireball, Bounding Missile, Fan of Flame and does tons of damage, but because the new Str/Res split, he turns to useless after spamming all spells (he has only 3 Str). I think nature godlike pure Evoker is the only caster class that can be useful in battle now, other casters are still bad compared to melee users.

 

Edit: Goldpack/Shifter is extremely tanky, almost ignoring all damage and can shift to heal or use LoHs. Troubadour/Rogue can fastly position himself with escape and then paralysis as many enemy as possible, and then support team with phrases and do some ok damage. Unbroken is not that good, not tanky or doing any damage. In current beta, a 20 Dex is almost a must if anyone wanna play a wizard, with Fleet Feet u can cast fireball in 4.2 sec, which is durable.

Edited January 3, 2018 by dunehunter

[Katarack21]

Summoned weapons already have a built-in disadvantage verse other spells, in that you have to physically walk up and hit a dude with it before the spell has any effect. I don't see why they can't be instant cast.

[Erik-Dirk]

Summoned weapons already have a built-in disadvantage verse other spells, in that you have to physically walk up and hit a dude with it before the spell has any effect. I don't see why they can't be instant cast.

Summon animation.

Also a true instant cast would be an unfair advantage (if very small) as you could instantly change damage type (regular weapon switch takes time)

[dunehunter]

Summoned weapons already have a built-in disadvantage verse other spells, in that you have to physically walk up and hit a dude with it before the spell has any effect. I don't see why they can't be instant cast.

 

I'd prefer 2 or 3 second cast time for summon weapon. With high dex you can summon it pretty quick and not game breaking. As mentioned, you should not be able to change damage type instantly (remember that summon weapon spell has 0 recovery time, so u can do attack as soon as your weapon is summoned if you can summon it instantly, then it is better than switch weapon).

Edited January 3, 2018 by dunehunter

[AndreaColombo]

By the same token, you shouldn’t be able to increase your AR instantly, or increase your stats instantly, etc.. That’s not a very good argument

 

Summoned Weapons should be as fast as self-buffs (0.5/0.0); anything longer and using a regular weapon is straight-up better, if nothing else because I don’t need to waste a spell pick on it and I don’t risk losing it to interruption.

Edited January 3, 2018 by AndreaColombo

[dunehunter]

By the same token, you shouldn’t be able to increase your AR instantly, or increase your stats instantly, etc.. That’s not a very good argument

 

Summoned Weapons should be as fast as self-buffs (0.5/0.0); anything longer and using a regular weapon is straight-up better, if nothing else because I don’t need to waste a spell pick on it and I don’t risk losing it to interruption.

 

Currently the only class that can change damage type efficiently is Black Jack, if all summon weapon spell is instant cast, what is the point of Black Jack?

[Boeroer]

As I said before: consider it to be a self buff (which it technically is). Nearly all self buffs have a casting time of 0.5 secs.

 

There's no mechanical difference in buffing yourself with +15 ACC or summoning a weapon which has +15 ACC (as long as you only intend to attack with the weapon)

[Boeroer]

 

By the same token, you shouldn’t be able to increase your AR instantly, or increase your stats instantly, etc.. That’s not a very good argument

 

Summoned Weapons should be as fast as self-buffs (0.5/0.0); anything longer and using a regular weapon is straight-up better, if nothing else because I don’t need to waste a spell pick on it and I don’t risk losing it to interruption.

Currently the only class that can change damage type efficiently is Black Jack, if all summon weapon spell is instant cast, what is the point of Black Jack?

"What's the point of the Black JackET anyway now after the PEN system got changed?" some would ask.

 

First of all most wizards who want to focus on summoned weapons won't use them as backup weapons for situations where their damage type doesn't fit but as main weapons. And even if there will be some melee wizards who only use them as an alternative to weapon switching: they still have to invest a precious ability point and a spell use to get an alternative damage type. He's faster with summoning than a Black Jacket can switch? Well he pays for it I'd say.

 

The Black Jacket can not only have up to four weapon slots but can also switch weapons faster than any other character by the way.

 

Besides some quick switching builds that you can realize with the Black Jacket you can also use his quick switching to omit recovery I guess. Didn't test it yet but I guess you can just switch weapons after you used a spell/ability with a very lengthy recovery time to cancel recovery. Not intended of course, but this could make the Black Jacket useful (until OBS decides what proper perk they want to give the Black Jackets). I for example would like so see that hey get improved modals for their proficiencies. Like... higher bonuses or lower maluses. For example Savage Attack could have a lower ACC malus when used by a proficient Black Jacket.

 

Anyway, I don't think Black Jackets and summoned weapons interfere at all when it comes to balance.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Boeroer

[JFutral]

 

 

Long duration, big AoE, big Dam spells make sense in battlefield battles. In the close quarters fighting in most CRPGs of this nature long duration spells make no sense and almost have no reason to exist in this environment. And considering I also risk friendly fire with many of those spells, too, why do I have these spells?

In PoE1 we had many spells at our disposal, and it was a great feeling that I have 5 different general strategies, and that in this given situation I can use this approach or this one. Versatility.

 

In Deadfire though... dunno, we'll have to see. But I can imagine a playstyle around:

- send a tank to gather enemies

- start casting a slow heavy hitting aoe spell that would seal the deal in one crit

- toss a mass disable, and relocate the tank right before impact

 

An additional thought came to me. One of the things that I think made spell casting in PoE work so well was in fact its simplicity. As this becomes more complex (both with spell schools and multi-class) and the way the mechanics are currently constructed it really does start to veer into BG/AD&D territory where the only way to be effective as a spell caster is to bulk up on quick shot spells like bless, magic missiles or chromatic orbs or DoT spells because those are the only ones you'll have time to cast, so might as well make casting count.

 

And with the still current modality of certain buffs (both spell and potion) this system is even more arduous. When I see the enemy first through stealth I still do not get why anything I want to do has to wait for combat to "Start" before buffing. That is completely non-sensical.

 

In terms of your strategy i was thinking, with an enemy AI that knows to target spell casters regardless of frontline tanks (especially with the rethought-out engagement mechanics which seems to let the bad guys run right by my enemy-gathering tank) maybe the best strategy is for everyone to be a spell caster of some sort, dilute the enemy's ability to focus on one target.

 

Joe

[MaxQuest]

When I see the enemy first through stealth I still do not get why anything I want to do has to wait for combat to "Start" before buffing. That is completely non-sensical.

Limiting buffs to be cast during combat only, allows making them more powerful, since there is also opportunity cost at hand.

 

On the other hand though... spells in Deadfire have a noise parameter.

I wouldn't be surprised if at some point, we would be able to start buffing before actual combat start, rather when we spot the enemy. And if we use something loud - they will come to investigate.

 

In terms of your strategy i was thinking, with an enemy AI that knows to target spell casters regardless of frontline tanks (especially with the rethought-out engagement mechanics which seems to let the bad guys run right by my enemy-gathering tank) maybe the best strategy is for everyone to be a spell caster of some sort, dilute the enemy's ability to focus on one target.

Makes sense. You either:

- disable them, or

- gather enough concentration, or

- bring enough casters, such that they would find it hard to interrupt them all

 

Btw, there have been mentioned 'ritual' spells in this thread.

Just a weird thought or rather association, as it makes me think of several robed figures drawing pentagrams together: a ritual could be an assisted spellcasting. E.g. a priest starts casting a very slow spell (let's say Storm of Holy Fire); and another priest (if he has access to the very same spell) can assist him, which results in twice faster casting speed, but at the cost: it's enough to interrupt only one of them - in order to interrupt the spell/ritual.

Edited January 3, 2018 by MaxQuest

[JFutral]

 

In terms of your strategy i was thinking, with an enemy AI that knows to target spell casters regardless of frontline tanks (especially with the rethought-out engagement mechanics which seems to let the bad guys run right by my enemy-gathering tank) maybe the best strategy is for everyone to be a spell caster of some sort, dilute the enemy's ability to focus on one target.

Makes sense. You either:

- disable them, or

- gather enough concentration, or

- bring enough casters, such that they would find it hard to interrupt them all

 

Btw, there have been mentioned 'ritual' spells in this thread.

Just a weird thought or rather association, as it makes me think of several robed figures drawing pentagrams together: a ritual could be an assisted spellcasting. E.g. a priest starts casting a very slow spell (let's say Storm of Holy Fire); and another priest (if he has access to the very same spell) can assist him, which results in twice faster casting speed, but at the cost: it's enough to interrupt only one of them - in order to interrupt the spell/ritual.

 

 

The noise parameter I think should allow pre-combat buffs. A potion makes virtually no noise. And of course the "balance" is the cost in duration, as in the clock starts ticking before the ensuing battle. I'm okay with that.

 

This is actually the strategy I've been employing in the last few play throughs, one direct engagement fighter type and four spell casters both dedicated and multi-class.

 

eta: I like the collaborative spell caster idea a lot.

 

Joe

Edited January 3, 2018 by JFutral

[theBalthazar]

[JFutral]

I don't know if it was luck of the draw but I found a Pull of Eora scroll that I used and for the life of me I would say it was much faster than a 9 second cast. Or maybe I was just high on adrenaline.

 

Joe

[SaruNi]

I don't know if it was luck of the draw but I found a Pull of Eora scroll that I used and for the life of me I would say it was much faster than a 9 second cast. Or maybe I was just high on adrenaline.

 

Joe

 

No, all the scrolls have short casting times. And you can get not only 4th but 5th level scrolls of Wizard (Torrent of Flames, Form of the Hapless Beast), Priest (Revival), and Druid scrolls (Embrace of the Death Talon). 

 

(Scroll of Pull of Eora has 1.6 second cast time and 1 second recovery.)

 

So if you want to experiment with what casters would be like with short casting times you could just console in as many scrolls as you want (set a macro to automate it). Or use that mod that lets you buy any item in the game and buy them in bulk. (Actually it would be much easier to just set your dexterity to give you +50 or +70% action speed.)

 

(Also bear in mind that we'll be able to craft scrolls, so we might end up having an unlimited supply, at least of some scrolls.)

Edited January 3, 2018 by SaruNi

[dunehunter]

 

I don't know if it was luck of the draw but I found a Pull of Eora scroll that I used and for the life of me I would say it was much faster than a 9 second cast. Or maybe I was just high on adrenaline.

 

Joe

No, all the scrolls have short casting times. And you can get not only 4th but 5th level scrolls of Wizard (Torrent of Flames, Form of the Hapless Beast), Priest (Revival), and Druid scrolls (Embrace of the Death Talon).

 

(Scroll of Pull of Eora has 1.6 second cast time and 1 second recovery.)

 

So if you want to experiment with what casters would be like with short casting times you could just console in as many scrolls as you want (set a macro to automate it). Or use that mod that lets you buy any item in the game and buy them in bulk. (Actually it would be much easier to just set your dexterity to give you +50 or +70% action speed.)

 

(Also bear in mind that we'll be able to craft scrolls, so we might end up having an unlimited supply, at least of some scrolls.)

What’s the difference between a wizard fireball and a scroll fireball, do they have different power level and what is the gap?

[SaruNi]

 

 

I don't know if it was luck of the draw but I found a Pull of Eora scroll that I used and for the life of me I would say it was much faster than a 9 second cast. Or maybe I was just high on adrenaline.

 

Joe

No, all the scrolls have short casting times. And you can get not only 4th but 5th level scrolls of Wizard (Torrent of Flames, Form of the Hapless Beast), Priest (Revival), and Druid scrolls (Embrace of the Death Talon).

 

(Scroll of Pull of Eora has 1.6 second cast time and 1 second recovery.)

 

So if you want to experiment with what casters would be like with short casting times you could just console in as many scrolls as you want (set a macro to automate it). Or use that mod that lets you buy any item in the game and buy them in bulk. (Actually it would be much easier to just set your dexterity to give you +50 or +70% action speed.)

 

(Also bear in mind that we'll be able to craft scrolls, so we might end up having an unlimited supply, at least of some scrolls.)

What’s the difference between a wizard fireball and a scroll fireball, do they have different power level and what is the gap?

 

 

Scrolls seem to use the level of the caster as their power level. (In the UI "level" is substituted for "power level" but the bonuses seem to be the same. The Acute inspiration and Godlike bonuses to power level increase this "level" and make the scroll of Minoletta's Concussive Missiles scroll produce additional missiles.)

 

Arcana is supposed to "increase the power level of scrolls" (leveling tooltip) but seems to have no effect on power level---at least increasing it from 7 to 9 or 20 has no effect on power level.

Edited January 3, 2018 by SaruNi

[Katarack21]

 

Summoned weapons already have a built-in disadvantage verse other spells, in that you have to physically walk up and hit a dude with it before the spell has any effect. I don't see why they can't be instant cast.

Summon animation.

Also a true instant cast would be an unfair advantage (if very small) as you could instantly change damage type (regular weapon switch takes time)

 

Regular weapon switch only causes recovery time, which one could add to summoned weapon spells--instant cast, short recovery time (equal to weapon switch recovery would be fair). I'd rather have that than wait two seconds while casting and possibly interrupted.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Katarack21

[SaruNi]

One caveat, multiclass characters get -2 power level for using scrolls. So scroll power level isn't just based on character level.

Edited January 3, 2018 by SaruNi

[JFutral]

very slow spell (let's say Storm of Holy Fire); and another priest (if he has access to the very same spell) can assist him, which results in twice faster casting speed, but at the cost: it's enough to interrupt only one of them - in order to interrupt the spell/ritual.

 

 

I was just wrapping up a left over campaign in PoE I and took on the Battle of Yenwood. There was an implied benefit precedence when the enemy Battle Mages gestured in "unison" to cause some extra fire AoE and damage level. It's all sort of prose in the description, but I think it is there.

 

Joe

[mostundesired]

Been following this thread somewhat, I originally wasn't going to chime in, but I might as well. My favorite game of all time, Dragon's Dogma, has casters with very slow cast times relative to other classes. And I loved it. Casters would rev up their biggest spells, party members would keep enemies away from them, and the cast spell would make or break the encounter. The major difference I'm seeing between that and Deadfire is that A) most spells in Dragon's Dogma were definitely strong enough for it to be worth the cast time and B) that game is stamina based for everything, which recovers over time, so even if you had to cancel the spell/were interrupted, it didn't make too much of a difference.

 

To that end, I can see Deadfire matching up with Dragon's Dogma in making slow spell casting feel good.

A) Spells have to be strong enough that the cast time is worth it. We're talking complete game changers. Also, probably better if the recovery time is notably shorter than the effect time

B) Harder to match up here. Things like concentration, of course, but the big question to me is whether an interrupted spell should use up resources. If not, casters have way more opportunities to change the fight, and I honestly don't know if that's enough to break the game or not.

 

I like the idea of shortening cast and recovery times, too. Small, reliable magic as opposed to big, risky magic. But personally, I'm more satisfied by big spells that take effort and team coordination to successfully pull off. Both being viable options would be ideal.

[MarcParis]

I guess it should be like of Pillards I.

 

For standard encounter, standard/basic spells should be quick to launch.

For epic battles, that's where slower spells should make the difference.

 

After question is : what spells could be considered standard/basic vs advanced..:D

[nordicbstrd]

I'm not a fan of the long casting time as it is kind of boring waiting for the spells to be cast.  In fact when I first started the game I thought it was bugged as I didn't think some of the spells were casting at all because they took so long.  Anyway, the real problem is the spells are useless anyway.  Here is a scenario that actually happened. 

 

Got into a fight and got my melee classes to intercept their melee just close enough to their ranged that a fireball would hit everyone.  

Started casting fireball to hit all 5 enemies at once.

Waited

Waited

Waited

Killed one of their guys, only 4 left

Waited

Waited

Fireball launches and ... pffft

Look at damage and see Miss, 11 dam, 11 dam, 9 dam

Wizard is out of the battle for 2.4 more seconds

So I say screw this and Escape with my rogue/cipher to one ranged dude and drop him in like 2 hits then jump to the other dude and one shot him with Soul Annihilation

 

So basically in 8.4 seconds my wizard did 31 damage and used a 3rd level spell and I had to pull some good positioning to do it too.  Or I could just use a monk, berserker, rogue or whatever and straight up kill 2 people maybe a 3rd in that same time.

[SaruNi]

I'm not a fan of the long casting time as it is kind of boring waiting for the spells to be cast.  In fact when I first started the game I thought it was bugged as I didn't think some of the spells were casting at all because they took so long.  Anyway, the real problem is the spells are useless anyway.  Here is a scenario that actually happened. 

 

Got into a fight and got my melee classes to intercept their melee just close enough to their ranged that a fireball would hit everyone.  

Started casting fireball to hit all 5 enemies at once.

Waited

Waited

Waited

Killed one of their guys, only 4 left

Waited

Waited

Fireball launches and ... pffft

Look at damage and see Miss, 11 dam, 11 dam, 9 dam

Wizard is out of the battle for 2.4 more seconds

So I say screw this and Escape with my rogue/cipher to one ranged dude and drop him in like 2 hits then jump to the other dude and one shot him with Soul Annihilation

 

So basically in 8.4 seconds my wizard did 31 damage and used a 3rd level spell and I had to pull some good positioning to do it too.  Or I could just use a monk, berserker, rogue or whatever and straight up kill 2 people maybe a 3rd in that same time.

 

The problem there is probably low penetration and low accuracy relative to reflex. Assassin/Evoker fireball does much more damage (full penetration, doubled damage, critical hit). Think I'll try a death godlike St Elga (or St Elga / Helwalker) scroll user as "tank"---so the multiple assassin AoE spells hit him to induce Near Death and +3 power level, while lay on hands prevents death. Concussive missiles scroll should launch 7 missiles (6 if multiclassing) and the 20% bonus for near death enemies is recalculated for each missile, so if the first 5 achieve near-death, the last two will get the bonus....

 

Alternately you could have had your melee characters hitting them with the flail modal for -25 reflex, using speed boosts like Wild Sprint to hit as many enemies as possible or Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage to land disengagement attacks... the Mace modal only helps penetration a little (-1 AR) and upgraded Into the Fray (-10 AR) is single-target but the Skald's -5 AR invocation can be used right away and hit multiple enemies. (Meanwhile, your Nature Godlike Evoker self-buffs with Deleterious Alacrity for faster casting and +2 power levels Eldritch Aim for +5 accuracy, and a Priest with high dexterity can give her +5 Resolve and +2 Penetration. If you do all this you could easily average 120 damage per enemy = 600 total damage.) This is more interesting than just "waiting waiting waiting"....

Edited January 5, 2018 by SaruNi