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Let's Make a Stat Overhaul!


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Aren't we getting a little hung up on casters as well?

Is the added deflection really worth it for the animal companion alone?

If not then isn't all this discussion a moot point because we still need to buff deflection for the ranger class?

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And RES in POE1 was just bad. It had a reputation of being good only for tanks. Not all classes were fit for this role.

I've been toying for awhile with various alternative bonuses for the character attributes.

Have a few ideas, but first... an abstract question:

 

If out of: damage dealing, healing, buffing and debuffing; you could specialize your characters in doing really well only two things, how would you like them being grouped?:

 

v1:

> damage and heal

> debuff and buff

> heal and buff

 

v2:

> damage and buff

> debuff and heal

> buff and heal

Edited by MaxQuest
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I'd rather have v2.

"damage and buff" reminds me of leader units in Legends of Eisenwald (mostly Knight and Baroness) who could do damage but also buff initiative of adjacent units.

"debuff and heal" reminds me of witches in Legends of Eisenwald who were doing just this.

"buff and heal" reminds me of healing women in Legends of Eisenwald who were doing just this.

 

Damage and heal are two ends of same stick. Same with debuff and buff. I think it's more interesting if a unit has two ends from two different sticks :)

 

Vancian =/= per rest.

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I kind of like MaxQuest's idea of resolve helping PEN of spells somehow.  Or maybe not that but helping against the defense rolls i.e. if the spell is against will a high resolve can somehow make your roll against it higher making it more likely to land or maybe just give you a percentage chance that it will always land.  I guess maybe it just raises it to a percentage miss->graze and graze->hit regardless of the accuracy.

 

Someone else smart can think of a way to get that to work in a reasonable way, but to me that just makes sense.  The caster with high resolve wouldn't have his spell turned away by an enemies mental fortitude.

Edited by nordicbstrd
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Damage and heal are two ends of same stick. Same with debuff and buff. I think it's more interesting if a unit has two ends from two different sticks :)

It's more unusual, that's for sure :)

 

I've been trying different combinations of possible effects, and this one matches the v2 approach:

 

MIG: +3% all damage done; +3% outcoming buff effects

CON: +5% base hp; +3% healing received

DEX: +3% action speed; +1 deflection

PER: +1 accuracy; +2% to overpenetration bonus

INT: +5% outcoming effect duration, +6% aoe radius

RES: +3% healing done, +5% chance to upgrade outcoming afflictions

 

> damage and buff: MIG + PER (+INT+DEX)

> debuff and heal: PER + RES (+INT+DEX)

> buff and heal: MIG + RES (+INT+DEX)

 

 

But am not completely happy with this variant, because RES is still a weak attribute for rogues and rangers. Also the balance of MIG vs RES is in favor of the former for wizards and ciphers. I will try to come with a different variant matching v2, and also take a look if something similar could work with STR-system.

 


At the moment though, I'd like to show a variant matching v1: (let's reference it as "suggestion s1")

MIG: +3% all damage done; +3% healing done

CON: +4% base hp; +3% healing received [1]

DEX: +3% action speed; +1 deflection

PER: +1 accuracy; +2% to overpenetration bonus [2] (another variant could be: +10% to inflict a 6s affliction on weapon crit: dazed - with crush weapons, weaken - otherwise)

INT: +5% outcoming effects duration; +6% aoe radius

RES: +3% damage received suppression [3]; +3% chance to upgrade outcoming afflictions and inspirations [4]

 

Notes:

 

[1] Constitution afflictions might require a little-tuning: Sickened "-50% healing" changed to "-half healing". Weakened/Enfeebled changed from "-100% healing" to "Cannot be healed", such that they would counter healing even if there is above 100% modifier.

[2] At 20 PER your damage would get multiplied by x1.5 instead of x1.3 on overpenetration

[3] At 20 RES incoming damage would get divided by x1.3 (stacks multiplicatively with AR damage reduction). And at less than 10 RES you would take bonus damage.

[4] At less than 10 RES, your aff/ins have a chance to get downgraded. Rank 3 inspirations cannot be upgraded; rank 1 afflictions cannot be downgraded. Partially allows bypassing Resistance effects. For example if you have 20 RES enemy resistance would get lowered from 100% to 70%.

 

 

I am still "stress-testing" this attribute system, in the sense that am going through all classes and try to estimate their builds at flat, maxed and dumped values for each attribute; plus checking if they are not becoming OP with some of existent buffs (like a potential +25 RES). Also have to keep in mind that attributes are a double edged-sword since they apply to enemy creatures as well. And finally checking if it supports as many different ways to play a class as possible.

 

So far I'm really liking [s1], because:

- RES is useful for casters. Including ranged casters as required. Specifically it is good for buffers and debuffers, but not for damage-dealers, so it's not an auto-max stat.

- RES is good for non-casters as well. Example: low-MIG barbarian focused on status effects, that has a chance to upgrade carnage staggering to dazed; or a ranger that can potentially paralyze instead of immobilize.

- It may make sense to actually max CON now for some regenerating offtank builds. (previously we would just keep it on an empirically stable value at which the character would not die, and all points in CON above it were wasted)

- So yeah, you can make a good RES-based build now and a good CON-based build as well.

- Dumping any attribute stings. At the same time if you want to dump one, it will still be viable if you are making a specialist character.

- This system stimulates tanking type combinations: [meat shield + regeneration] (CON + MIG), [mitigation + being healed] (RES + CON), [avoidance] (RES + DEX)

- Also it enables two approaches to auto-attacking damage dealing: MIG-based (consistent), PER-based (spike, crits are responsible for a larger quota of dmg); the first one may be more appealing to characters favoring more straight-forward approach; while the second approach has low-MIG cc ciphers and rogues in mind, who are also focused on afflictions. And ofc there can be a mixed approach - that's a Devout "blademaster".

- This system looks ok from thematic point of view. An agile rogue being harder to hit, or a resolve-based character gritting his teeth and suppressing a portion of pain/damage has a natural feel about it. Similar thing about high-RES char who inspires his comrades and can overcome enemy resistance; or high-PER char who would notice the best spot to penetrate in enemy's armor.

 

But yes, there are also cons about this:

- The resolve effects have kinda long description

- Damage received suppression may always need a note attached. Since it is not exactly the same as "-3% to damage received". At 20 RES damage_going_through is 100% * 1/1.3 and not 100% * (1-0.3); i.e. it won't snowball at high RES values.

Edited by MaxQuest
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:) penetration bonus is the first thing I have tried for PER and dismissed out, as with current enemy AR values it would only enforce [high-dmg, low-pen] for classes with any flat PEN bonuses.

 

Still your deleted note is a valid concern. As what I am trying to achieve is a proper balance between dmg+heal party versus dmg+debuff party. The latter would likely have a cc wizard, cipher, trickster, skald or dump-mig monk/barbarian/fury. I'd like maxing PER if you already have maxed MIG, be situational not a no-brainer (i.e. great for some builds but not for all)

 

The monk's PEN bonuses were probably meant to compensate for low penetration with fists. Am not completely sure if it's fair to apply them to all weapons.

 

If monk's PEN bonuses won't be partiaĺly moved to Transcendent Suffering, other variant would be to make PEN have a chance to apply dazed or weakened on critical strike. This way PER will keep it's position as prime attribute for debuffing while also rise in usefulness compared to the just "+1 acc per point", which was providing only +2.22% dps increase at most, compared to +3% from MIG and PER. And also there will be a synergy between PER and RES as those dazed/weakened would get a chance to get upgraded.

Edited by MaxQuest
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To make all attributes useful you should have every attribute giving offensive bonuses to all classes. An idea would be:

MIG - 3% dmg

DEX - 3% spd

CON - 5% crit dmg

PER - 1 acc

INT - 5% graze to hit, AoE increase

RES - 2% hit to crit, duration increase

Edited by Kaylon
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To make all attributes useful you should have every attribute giving offensive bonuses to all classes. An idea would be:

MIG - 3% dmg

DEX - 3% spd

CON - 5% crit dmg

PER - 1 acc

INT - 5% graze to hit, AoE increase

RES - 2% hit to crit, duration increase

Can I assume that you meant "to make all attributes usefull for all classes (such that there would be at least 1 melee and 1 ranged viable x-based build per class for each attribute x) you should have every attribute giving offensive bonuses"? If yes, I've came to a similar conclusion.

 

Defensive attributes are more useful for melee builds as they are more susceptible to be targeted and damaged. While ranged characters can get away with lesser survivability. After a certain threshold investing points in CON and RES was providing for them a quite diminished gain. As example in PoE1 or in Deadfire Beta1, it was hard to justify a CON-based or RES-based ranged: ranger, rogue, chanter, cipher, druid, wizard and priest. Beta2 partially addressed the situation for RES and casters; but it did so on detriment of hybrid builds; additionally the state of CON-based casters and CON/RES-based rogues and rangers is still kind of moot.

 

Making all attributes carry an offensive component will indeed make them desireble for at least 1 melee and 1 ranged build per each class.

 

On the other hand, this offensiveness can be indirect. Let's take CON as example. If it gives "+4% hp base hp; +3% healing received" - it's defensive. But if there are:

- weapons or modals, that are reducing your hp (like scepter's modal) - both hp and regeneration become a mean of offence.

- or if there were spells that use your hp pool as resource, for example something like: "inflict to self and all surround enemies damage equal to 25% of your max hp" or "drain the target for 6% of your max health pool per second" - hp again would be helping with dealing damage. Additionally it could enable a new way to play a class: drain-tanking. (makes me think of Concelhaut by the way)

Edited by MaxQuest
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To make all attributes useful you should have every attribute giving offensive bonuses to all classes. An idea would be:

MIG - 3% dmg

DEX - 3% spd

CON - 5% crit dmg

PER - 1 acc

INT - 5% graze to hit, AoE increase

RES - 2% hit to crit, duration increase

 

One shortcoming of this particular system is that the usefulness of Con depends explicitly on Per. Boosting critical damage (high Con) would be nonsense for somebody with low Perception and low Accuracy.

 

 

On the other hand, this offensiveness can be indirect. Let's take CON as example. If it gives "+4% hp base hp; +3% healing received" - it's defensive. But if there are:

- weapons or modals, that are reducing your hp (like scepter's modal) - both hp and regeneration become a mean of offence.

- or if there were spells that use your hp pool as resource, for example something like: "inflict to self and all surround enemies damage equal to 25% of your max hp" or "drain the target for 6% of your max health pool per second" - hp again would be helping with dealing damage. Additionally it could enable a new way to play a class: drain-tanking. (makes me think of Concelhaut by the way)

 

 

The second idea is very attractive :) There exist already an indirect link between Con and offensiveness. Heavy armor is suggested for many builds. More HP from high Con might, at least in theory (usefulness depends on numbers), allow to wear one grade lighter armor, increasing overall speed and DPS. From this viewpoint, Con can be traded for offensiveness.

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MaxQuest I think your ideas are excellent but I believe it's way too late in PoE2's development to make such large adjustments to the stat system.

Fair enough. Proposed suggestions would indeed take quite an effort to get implemented.

 

If I'm not mistanken, concentration now is not simply binary, but comes in layers. E.g. if the character has 2 concentration charges, only 3rd interrupt would get him.

In this case another approach could be, to simply give RES and PER their concentration related features from PoE1, but adapted for Deadfire. It's not perfect, but faster to implement, and kinda better than what we had in Beta1. Example:

 

MIG: +3% damage, +3% healing

CON: +5% hp base hp

DEX: +3% action speed

PER: +1 accuracy; +5% for interruption effects to remove one additional concentration charge

INT: +5% effect duration, +6% aoe,

RES: +2 deflection, +5% to gain an additional concentration charge

 

Note: and if concentration charges are not int but float, the +5% could be substituted by +0.05 as it would make it more reliable, not chance-based.

 

or in case of STR/RES it could be ~something like that:

 

 

STR: +3% weapon damage, +1 deflection

CON: +5% hp base hp

DEX: +3% action speed

PER: +1 accuracy; +5% for interruption effects to remove one concentration charge from target, before the interruption check

INT: +5% effect duration, +6% aoe,

RES: +3% spell damage, +5% spell healing, +5% to gain an additional concentration charge

 

Note: This STR/RES variant could also come with a few talents that would help hybrid casters to partially circumvent the separation of damage into 2 stats. E.g:

- cipher: use resolve or dexterity, whichever is lower, for damage dealt with piercing and slashing weapons.

- wizard: modal: use intellect instead of strength, for damage with implements and conjured weapons, while under the effects of concentration.

- priest: get a Strong inspiration when conjuring a melee weapon, or Quick inspiration when conjuring a ranged one.

- druid: while spiritshifted, get increase in resolve equal to half of your strength score.

P.S. The weak part of this STR/RES approach though is: that dumping RES doesn't provide enough malus for  phys-oriented characters. And that goes against original idea that dumping a stat should actually sting.

 

 

 

Edited by MaxQuest
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Nice ideas, although we can't add anything else to Might/strength otherwise it'll be more valuable than dex.

(Currently might is more useful for limited abilities, dex is more useful for on hit effects/casting buffs)
Although this could balance nicely if Might was an additive effect.

 

In the strength option I'd move concentration under strength too (strength becomes a dump stat for classic casters builds)

I also liked your older ideas of constution affecting healing received as well as resolve effecting crits in some way

All the hybrid solutions would probably make things a little too complicated though, also I think it's fair that they need to sacrifice versatility if they intend  to min/max.

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Nice ideas, although we can't add anything else to Might/strength otherwise it'll be more valuable than dex.

(Currently might is more useful for limited abilities, dex is more useful for on hit effects/casting buffs)

Although this could balance nicely if Might was an additive effect.

Agreed about Might. But unsure about Strength.

I think giving STR only +3% to weapon damage, feels a bit underwhelming, because (under the last STR suggestions):

 

STR:

- affects the damage (done with weapons only)

- provides a slightly better conservation of limited resources and ability usages (provided you manage to use them all during combat, with no "left-overs")

- althought the STR is multiplicative now with most of damage bonuses; it is inverse additive with grazes and under-penetration (and in this cases the benefit from STR bonus is almost halved, because of the current double inversion)

DEX:

- affects the speed of everything: damage dealing, healing, buffing, debuffing, summoning

- provides a slightly better uptime of on-hit/on-crit effects

- makes it easier/quicker to interrupt stuff

RES

- affects the damage (done via spells)

- affects healing (done via spells, as we don't want to hurt the self-sustainance of offensive phys-dpsers)

- provides bonus concentration

 

All the hybrid solutions would probably make things a little too complicated though, also I think it's fair that they need to sacrifice versatility if they intend to min/max.

Absolutely agreed about versatility vs specialization trade-offs.

I'd just like to add that it would be great if every specialist had around the same amount of required attributes.

Atm we can have a damage-oriented rogue who needs STR, DEX and PER, so he can be built as: 18/12/18/18/8/3 and be great what he's doing.

Now let's take a damage-oriented cipher focused on aoe-powers. He needs STR, DEX, PER, INT and RES. And a specialist wants all these maxed. That's a bit unfair that one dedicated specialist needs 3 maxed stats, while another needs 5. That's why I mentioned those hybrid talents as they were suggested in an attempt to take at least 1 stat out (but such that not all representatives of the class would auto take/benefit from it) (note: unlike STR, the MIG model does not need them).

 

In the strength option I'd move concentration under strength too (strength becomes a dump stat for classic casters builds)

Concentration coming from strength would cause many questions. Probably it's better to keep looking for other alternatives.

 

I also liked your older ideas of constution affecting healing received as well as resolve effecting crits in some way

Me too)

I like the previous suggestions much more over these last two. But these have the benefit of "requiring minimum changes"/"being faster to implement".

Edited by MaxQuest
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I liked the concentration mechanics of PoE1, especially now when I compare it to PoE2. In PoE1 res had a use for any char (especially melee) because if you get interrupted often you do not do anything at all. There were builds with dumped res, but there came a downside with it.

 

In PoE1, mig gave bonusses for weapon damage, spell damage and healing. Sice you need to damage enemies to win and a pure buffer/debuffer does not seem very good, hardly any char wanted to dump it. Using different stats for magical and physical numbers (damage, healing) seems to make sense. (importent note: There is a big difference between "it makes sense according to my personal theory how fighting and magic in a fantasy setting works" and "there is an understandable way to make a balanced game mechanic out of this")

 

In terns of stat system, PoE1 was a huge step forward compared to the DnD games. ( I never played pnp and I had only computer games with DnD 2nd and 3rd edition)

- In the IE games, most classes had dump stats. A physical char (no spells) should max out str, con, dex and ignore wis, int, cha. Casters needed their main casting stat maxed (int or wis). TBH cha was useless for any char (except for PST, but there you had a spell to buff it). The ultimate stat dumper was the sorcerer whose casting power depended on nothing but his character level.

- NwN2 qas an improvement. At least every stat was useful for some chars, though most build still had dumb stats. Now we had the issue that some chars needed very few stats (max out one or two stats and its OK to dump the rest) while other chars were MAD (multiple attibute dependency)

- In PoE1, each stat has at least some use for almost every char. I think MAD is good, because I think it is better if you deliberately priorize the benefit of one stat over the other than to mindlessly max out an obvious main stat.

 

In the second version of the PoE2 beta I see the following problems:

- Casting ciphers suffer most under MAD, because they need str for weapon damage for focus, res for spell damage and int for spell area/duration. I do not see a way to help ciphers in a system where weapon and spell damage depend on different stats.

- I think druid class suffers second. Before you could cast a storm, shift and run amok. Now you must chose between being a fighter/buffer or a caster/healer.

- Healers/supporters have been weakened. In PoE1 with high mig you could use auto attacks and cast heals or buffs when needed. In PoE2 your physical damage will be low. You can learn offensive spells too, but then you learn less heal/support spells and casting any offensive spell reduces your number of heals (ok, the last thing was true for PoE1 too).

- If you could summom weapons much faster ( and the tranmuter ogre shifts fast like a druid ), fighting casters could be quite useful.

 

With the exception of ciphers, I think the new system is not automatically better or worse than the old one. Its just different.

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The only change I would make it is the next one:

 

CON: increase weapon damage (stamina to maintain the quality of physical attacks or something like that) in addition to the base bonus.

RES: spell damage and healing.

STR back to MIGHT: small bonus to spell/heal and weapon damage.

Edited by Roda
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