SAWYERISM BETRAYED - Might turns back into Strength, Resolve will affect spell damage

[Infinitron]

It's the end of an era.

 

https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/935573319121649664

 

Edited November 28, 2017 by Infinitron

[MortyTheGobbo]

Well, it could be worse. At least ranged weapon damage will remain with Strength. It's now a dump stat for casters (just as resolve will be a dump stat for most non-casters) and we're basically back to a painfully generic RPG attribute spread, but it could be worse.

Edited November 28, 2017 by MortyTheGobbo

[Infinitron]

Edited November 28, 2017 by Infinitron

[dunehunter]

Well this is just Beta, remember in POE 1 beta attribute is changed a lot? Devs are doing experiment to see what is the best way to handle them. I maintain neutral to the change because previously Res is a dump stats for me. Now it's hurt more to dump Res.

[Sedrefilos]

Well, it could be worse. At least ranged weapon damage will remain with Strength. It's now a dump stat for casters (just as resolve will be a dump stat for most non-casters) and we're basically back to a painfully generic RPG attribute spread, but it could be worse.

That was my concern too. Here's what he said about it when I mentioned:

https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/935582874450804736

Edited November 28, 2017 by Sedrefilos

[dragubaba]

I like it. Mechanically, we'll see how it works out but from roleplaying perspective I like that now it feels as though my pure melee guys just got their physical edge back.

[molotov.]

Now you can have a caster that can do damage and heal, where is the BALANCE? Why not put the damage dealing into intellect and healling done into resolve? It would work much better and would also work with the lore, the heal spells of priests, paladins and druids are from their faith not from their intellect, and a priest tank build would be viable in this case.

I think they are trying to adress the issue of lack of spells variations with this...

[Aramintai]

It doesn't look balanced at all and is unfair to non-spellcasters who will have to specifically invest in Resolve to get Deflection bonus, while squishy, no armor spellcasters can now pump Resolve and deflect like a boss. Feels stupid.

Btw, people are hotly discussing Resolve issue here:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/94858-resolve-huh-what-is-it-good-for/?p=1957892

[Gromnir]

Now you can have a caster that can do damage and heal, where is the BALANCE? 

actually, this change makes such a character more difficult to build, if only in a limited way.  for a healer, put points in might at the expense o' resolve were the smart move. as a matter o' fact, we had a deadfire contemplative build which were an absolute monster healer.  a helwalker monk combined with a priest could achieve, at low levels, a might score exceeding 40.  HUGE heals.  HUGE spell damage.  HUGE melee combat damage.  now we gotta make hard choices and our recognition o' how the helwalker were an ironic obvious and counter-intuitive second class for an offensive caster is in the thunder mug.

 

from a practical pov, the change makes sense.  it addresses the resolve-as-dump stat for any non-tank, which has been an issue for a long time.  sure, the change is busting up any number o' potential builds we envisioned, but am gonna see how it plays.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sedrefilos]

I don't know how importatnt it feels for the rest but this change affected something more than the mechanics themselves for me: it introduced the "dump stat" reality thus putting Pillars in the bulk of generic rpgs of the olde - a move that could hurt the reputation of the game's uniqueness, the "no dump stats, no bad builds" motto. Sawyer defends it saying that "no bad builds" was always over "no dump stats" but still one phrase ir removed from the motto.

I don't know how to feel about it... :/

Edited November 28, 2017 by Sedrefilos

[Wormerine]

Yayyyyy!!!!!! I have no idea how it will turn out in practice but at least might isn't a stupid, confusing, "why is my mage lifting boulders with his bare hands" stat.

So will resolve now also be used for active abilities damage? So spellcaster will low might and high resolve will have good spellcasting, but poor performance with weapons, and viceversa. I like that. Now I wish for more passive stats for spellcasters so I could consider building passive mage... though not that I would.

It's interesting. I don't know if its the best solution, but in my mind its better. And better is good.

[illathid]

I really hate this. I'm very disappointed in Josh right now.

[Gromnir]

I don't know how importatnt it feels for the rest but this change affected something more than the mechanics themselves for me: it introduced the "dump stat" reality thus putting Pillars in the bulk of generic rpgs of the olde - a move that could hurt the reputation of the game's uniqueness, the "no dump stats, no bad builds" motto. Sawyer defends it saying that "no bad builds" was always over "no dump stats" but still one phrase ir removed from the motto.

I don't know how to feel about it... :/

 

am agreeing with josh that the dump stat reality were already in poe.

 

constitution were a dump stat for most builds.

 

resolve were a dump stat for anybody but tanks.

 

many tanks, particular chanter and paladins, could dump dexterity.

 

etc.

 

take a look at the build compilation thread for poe.  see how optimizers spread ability scores.

 

no dump stats were an admirable notion, and am still believing every class should produce viable builds with diverse stat spreads.  this change ain't a limit 'pon such a goal.  is more than a few casters builds who is gonna want high strength to take advantage of spiritual weapons or firebrand or rods or whatever.  is not hard to see how a fighter is gonna benefit from high deflection and the heal boost (do not ignore how powerful +10 tiers o' athletics can be when boosted by high might/resolve/whatever.) 

 

at first glance this change appears to reduce the current dump stats reality rather than introducing anything new. even so, wanna play 'fore we adopt some kind bias we will have difficulty unburdening our self from.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Juodas Varnas]

RIP muscle wizards

[Aramintai]

RIP muscle wizards

Welcome uber deflecting tank wizards, yay... 

[JerekKruger]

I really hate this.

 

Same.

 

I'm very disappointed in Josh right now. 

 

I'm not so much disappointed in Josh as I'm realising that, fundamentally, I really liked Pillars' mechanics so the more things change substantially in Deadfire the less I'm looking forward to it. I was hoping Obsidian would spend time tweaking the old ruleset but ultimately leaving it essentially the same, but they seem keen to change parts of it significantly.

[Wormerine]

I'm not so much disappointed in Josh as I'm realising that, fundamentally, I really liked Pillars' mechanics so the more things change substantially in Deadfire the less I'm looking forward to it. I was hoping Obsidian would spend time tweaking the old ruleset but ultimately leaving it essentially the same, but they seem keen to change parts of it significantly.

I personally find it to be a very refreshing approach to sequels. So often you see same game being made over and over again without an attempt to fix its issues. Obsidian does seem to be interested in solving problems PoE1 had. That might mean they will introduce new ones. I am really surprised people dislike this change as combining strength and magic prowess seemed like an odd decision to me. Edited November 28, 2017 by Wormerine

[Sedrefilos]

 

I really hate this.

 

Same.

 

I'm very disappointed in Josh right now. 

 

I'm not so much disappointed in Josh as I'm realising that, fundamentally, I really liked Pillars' mechanics so the more things change substantially in Deadfire the less I'm looking forward to it. I was hoping Obsidian would spend time tweaking the old ruleset but ultimately leaving it essentially the same, but they seem keen to change parts of it significantly.

 

To be fair, if they make more drastic changes in roleplay (which they do as I see in beta pleythroughs) I won't care much about the mechanics changes. It's mostly that the conversation is around mechanics now that the beta is out and the fact that I don't like the changes makes the atmosphere a bit sad for me.

Still, Pillars 1 mechanics where the best till now regarding party-based rpgs and it was a feature that made me talk about with friends, inspired me in board game design and felt that made the game stand out from the rest. This change pretty much dump the entire design philosophy they had and follow the oldies way.

Hopefully the end result will be the game I expected it to be, not only in roleplay but in mechanics design as well, but at this time I'm a bit dissapointed.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Sedrefilos

[Aramintai]

 

 

I'm not so much disappointed in Josh as I'm realising that, fundamentally, I really liked Pillars' mechanics so the more things change substantially in Deadfire the less I'm looking forward to it. I was hoping Obsidian would spend time tweaking the old ruleset but ultimately leaving it essentially the same, but they seem keen to change parts of it significantly.

I personally find it to be a very refreshing approach to sequels. So often you see same game being made over and over again without an attempt to fix its issues. Obsidian doesn’t seem to be interested in solving problems PoE1 had. That might mean they will introduce new ones. I am really surprised people dislike this change as combining strength and magic prowess seemed like an odd decision to me.

 

At least it was unique. Now it is getting more similar to your generic AD&D. Which is not a bad thing per se, but AD&D had years and years of polish while POE system was barely off the ground and is already getting a huge revamp. Shoulda just tweaked the old system, there was nothing terribad about it. 

Edited November 28, 2017 by Aramintai

[Infinitron]

[JerekKruger]

I personally find it to be a very refreshing approach to sequels. So often you see same game being made over and over again without an attempt to fix its issues. Obsidian doesn’t seem to be interested in solving problems PoE1 had. That might mean they will introduce new ones. 

 

Hey, it might turn out great, in fact I hope it does, but I liked Pillars a lot so the changes don't sound good to me.

 

I'm not going to make any proclamations like "I'll never play Deadfire" or similar, but my enthusiasm for it is diminishing. I might just leave the beta and come back in a few months to see how things are looking.

 

I am really surprised people dislike this change as combining strength and magic prowess seemed like an odd decision to me.

 

It made sense from a mechanics point of view, and I quite liked the lore explanation once I got used to it. The only thing that wasn't great was that almost all Might dialogue checks implied physical intimidation, but this won't be an issue in Deadfire since we have conversation based skills including Intimidation and it sounds like attribute based dialogue options are mostly being removed.

Edited November 28, 2017 by JerekKruger

[pm675]

I don´t like it. Honestly I' m starting to regret having backed. I paid for a sequel of PoE, the more they change the mechanics of eveyithing, the less is it. 

[draego]

"if there is a proposal ...."

 

I mean like i mentioned on the other thread about this issue. You can make resolve contribute to all defenses instead of two and or make the increment higher like +2 instead of +1. I get this isnt as sexy as offensive stuff like spell damage but there are less drastic ways to change resolve that doesnt completely alter the mechanics. I am not saying i completely hate the change yet. We will have to see but this change seem really drastic.

Edited November 28, 2017 by draego

[MortyTheGobbo]

Why is it always the use of Might for magic that's the problem? No one seems to have any problems with archers, crossbow-users, gunners or rapier-wielders getting damage from Might, even though it makes equally little sense from a non-mechanical standpoint.

[pm675]

I don't understand  Obsidian.

 

Make one game, sell a million copies, be (generally) critical acclaimed.

 

Do a second game, sell a quarter million copies, be less regarded and considered a flop.

 

Make a sequel to the first game, copy more your second game and less your succesful first game.

 

???? 

Profit?