I keep seeing this "hybrid builds nerfed". I haven't got a calculator ready, but just how bad is it, really?

 

You can't max those two stats needed, but surely you could get them in the 14 range or so. Will it really be such a downer?

No feels, just facts, please.

 

 

The way the math works out for a cipher, you can max Int (necessary), Per (necessary due to hit/miss changes), and then past that whatever points you add in one place, you have to take away from somewhere else -- if you want more Resolve, you have to drop Con, etc.

 

Ciphers have to do weapon damage to gain focus.

 

You can effectively shave  . . . four or so at most . . points off Con IF you're willing to play ranged instead of frontline. 

 

So you can put those four points into one of either Might, Dex, or Resolve.

 

Currently, the general build is to also cut resolve by about six to seven points, and put what you gain from cutting Res and Con into Might and Dex, because that helps casting speed and weapon and spell damage.

 

Next patch, you'll basically have to choose between doing either weapon damage or spell damage  .. . . except that isn't a choice because without weapon damage you'll never get the focus to do spell anything. On the other hand, if you don't pump resolve, your powers won't be effective no matter how much weapon focus you gather. 

 

I don't know how to build a cipher under the new system. Maybe just dump Dex and do everything like you're moving through molasses? 

 

Alternatively the answer might be to just drop all damage-based Cipher powers and play the class as a pure buffer/debuffer.

 

Interesting, you say cipher, but you mean a specific hybrid build, no? Given that you use almost all attributes.

Alternatively the answer might be to just drop all damage-based Cipher powers and play the class as a pure buffer/debuffer.

 

 

Yes but how you accumulate points ?

 

It seems to me that, more damage you give more focus you take ?

 

So here there is a connection between two concepts ?

There's no reason to think this change happens in a vacuum so I don't know that we can say anything about builds just yet. Even if Ciphers are weirdly dependent on lots of stats you could just tweak their focus gain independently and suddenly everything would work again. % increases from strength and resolve could change, items could change. Maybe Cipher damage spells scale very steeply with stats or they just become more of a buff/debuff focused class and you do more damage that way rather than through nukes.

Edited November 28, 20178 yr by Breckmoney

 

 

I keep seeing this "hybrid spells nerfed". I haven't got a calculator ready, but just how bad is it, really?

 

You can't max those two stats needed, but surely you could get them in the 14 range or so. Will it really be such a downer?

No feels, just facts, please.

 

We won't really know until we see how much each boosts damage.  But even if they each boost damage double what might does now hybrids will still have a significantly lower damage boost potential than non hybrids.  

 

Obviously, like everybody else, I would be a bit dismayed if in fact hybrid builds became completely non-viable, but I'm pretty sure it won't be that bad. It would be very counter-productive, given the new multiclass system and all.

 

for rp reasons, Gromnir has been playing much o' the beta with priest builds.  also for rp reasons, we has been playing with our traditional spread o' abilities:

 

m 15

c 10

d 10

p  14

i 15

r 14

 

given the changes, we would play a helwalker monk hybrid with much the same stats.  yeah, the build would be less o' a healing titan, but would still be more than viable.

 

now, for those who optimize, the change will serious affect hybrids who wanna be superlative casters and weapon user monsters. is legit concerns for such folks.  is also admitted counter-intuitive how priests and wizards, many o' whom were yesterday having less-than-10 resolves and cruddy deflection, sudden is gonna be seeing ~18 resolves and deflections better than most dps weapon users. 

 

gonna see how it actual plays.  will likely require adjustment. that being said, am admitted less affected by this change than most as our rp-focus builds has us needing make only small changes.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited November 28, 20178 yr by Gromnir

 

 

 

Interesting, you say cipher, but you mean a specific hybrid build, no? Given that you use almost all attributes.

 

 

 

However you're building your cipher, the math works out fairly similarly; you need the same stats for the same sorts of things.

 

Hrm.

 

It might be possible to build a low-int cipher that just did damage powers by pumping might AND resolve, but you'd have to give up all the CC effects and durations, and all your powers would have crappy areas of effect.

 

It might be possible to build a crowd-control focused cipher that did no damage with powers, but you'd have to basically rely on the weapon (whatever weapon you chose) for ALL your damage output, and ciphers get no weapon active abilities.

 

 

You could theoretically have high damage output weapon and high damage output spells but you'd have give up Dex in the process so you wouldn't net out ahead -- each hit would do more but you'd have fewer hits.  

 

The same logic holds whichever build you're talking about, there aren't enough points to spread around any more. You have to give up something major, and you can't give up weapon damage without the whole thing shutting down.

 

 

Other classes are faucets: turn off one faucet you can turn on another. Ciphers are a hose: if you close off either end, the whole process shuts down.

Edited November 28, 20178 yr by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

 

I keep seeing this "hybrid builds nerfed". I haven't got a calculator ready, but just how bad is it, really?

 

You can't max those two stats needed, but surely you could get them in the 14 range or so. Will it really be such a downer?

No feels, just facts, please.

 

 

The way the math works out for a cipher, you can max Int (necessary), Per (necessary due to hit/miss changes), and then past that whatever points you add in one place, you have to take away from somewhere else -- if you want more Resolve, you have to drop Con, etc.

 

Ciphers have to do weapon damage to gain focus.

 

You can effectively shave  . . . four or so at most . . points off Con IF you're willing to play ranged instead of frontline. 

 

So you can put those four points into one of either Might, Dex, or Resolve.

 

Currently, the general build is to also cut resolve by about six to seven points, and put what you gain from cutting Res and Con into Might and Dex, because that helps casting speed and weapon and spell damage.

 

Next patch, you'll basically have to choose between doing either weapon damage or spell damage  .. . . except that isn't a choice because without weapon damage you'll never get the focus to do spell anything. On the other hand, if you don't pump resolve, your powers won't be effective no matter how much weapon focus you gather. 

 

I don't know how to build a cipher under the new system. Maybe just dump Dex and do everything like you're moving through molasses? 

 

Alternatively the answer might be to just drop all damage-based Cipher powers and play the class as a pure buffer/debuffer.

 

 

 

You'd probably want to dump resolve and not use damage based powers.  As of now the damage based powers aren't really worth using anyways.  In fact most cipher powers aren't.  But if they were I would probably still dump damage based powers in order to be more effective.

It's official: dump stats are in

https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/935600930300469248

 

I don't know how to feel about it; I hope Sawyer's reasoning makes the game better. I for one would want no dump stats + no bad builds but, apparently, this cannot be accomplished.

I don't want dump stats either. Why dance around it and over complicate things? Better to drop Resolve altogether.

-Put all weapon damage into Might (Strength).

-Put all health into Constitution.

-Put all action speed and deflection into Dexterity.

-Put all accuracy into Perception.

-Put all spell damage, will and duration bonuses into Intellect.

 

That's it, everything is useful, no dump stats.

 

Resolve has no identity in the system. And, imho, no logic. Even from POE1 times it felt like it was shoehorned in just because AD&D had 6 attributes and devs just had to make something, but a bit different from Charisma.

Edited November 28, 20178 yr by Aramintai

 

 

 

 

 

You'd probably want to dump resolve and not use damage based powers.  As of now the damage based powers aren't really worth using anyways.  In fact most cipher powers aren't.  But if they were I would probably still dump damage based powers in order to be more effective.

 

 

 

Yeah that's probably what I'll try. Max Int, Per, take only buff/debuff/cc powers, shave Con, remaining points in Dex, since at least Dex will still help both spells and weapon. Problem is Dex isn't quite as effective a damage stat as either Might or Res will be. 

Edited November 28, 20178 yr by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

 

Resolve has no identity in the system. And, imho, no logic. Even from POE1 times it felt like it was shoehorned in just because AD&D had 6 attributes and devs just had to make something, but a bit different from Charisma.

 

It did; Sawyer semi-admitted it early on. Still, as he says in the conversation, they cannot just remove a stat altogether at this point in production.

My concern, though, is of another matter, besides mechanics (from my post in a different thread):

I don't know how importatnt it feels for the rest but this change affected something more than the mechanics themselves for me: it introduced the "dump stat" reality thus putting Pillars in the bulk of generic rpgs of the olde - a move that could hurt the reputation of the game's uniqueness, the "no dump stats, no bad builds" motto. Sawyer defends it saying that "no bad builds" was always over "no dump stats" but still one phrase is removed from the motto.

I don't know how to feel about it... :/

Edited November 28, 20178 yr by Sedrefilos

From Josh on somethingawful: (they get all the love )

 

No, we're not locked into it.

 

It's difficult to move active/offensive stats to Resolve without them being taken from somewhere else or winding up being of marginal value to the overall class spread. We discussed a few other ideas, like Resolve accelerating the buildup of "natural" Concentration (i.e. everyone gets Concentration after enough time in combat has passed, but high Resolve gets there/regenerates faster) or the use of Empower being time-gated based on Resolve. The former is still defensive and the latter is of marginal value.

 

Moving around existing bonuses that are already on attributes tends to drop them in value significantly. Might seemed the most resilient to splitting the bonus.

Edited November 28, 20178 yr by draego

Won't strength just become a dump stat instead?  Or rather, my priest would have to choose between the rather lame damage dual wielding scepters was doing for her or boosting her healing power...  which would you choose?

For pure spell-damagers it will.

 

It looks like a control freak wizard-skald with 2 MIG I was going to use, will now also be able to contribute with spell damage as well...

This is tasty from one point of view. But ciphers get into a somewhat bad spot after this change, as they suddenly happen to need ALL stats now.

Usually they deal physical damage to get focus, in order to:

- cast cc powers

- or cast damaging powers

- or both (amplified wave)

And unless it's addressed, we won't see many casting ciphers. They can potentially end up being multi-classed into just for their martial damage coefficients.

 

P.S. Funny enough, Helwalker will suddenly stop being that useful for spelldamagers.

P.P.S. Needa check the RES bonus from Crowns for the Faithful...

Edited November 28, 20178 yr by MaxQuest

I just don't get why he would think it's ok to leave deflection on resolve and give it spell power.  Really wizards and priests can use shields like everyone else, they'll be the new tanks, especially with stuff like arcane veil.

Edited November 28, 20178 yr by Climhazzard

I just don't get why he would think it's ok to leave deflection on resolve and give it spell power.  Really wizards and priests can use shields like everyone else, they'll be the new tanks, especially with stuff like arcane veil.

Yes, I don't see people mentioning Deflection issue on Twitter or SomethingAwful much. It's a glaring issue though, imho. Spellcasters should not be better tanks than melee classes. Deflection has no place in new Resolve since it's supposedly gonna be more useful now even without Deflection. 

Edited November 28, 20178 yr by Aramintai

God I hope this gets reverted.

If anti-dump system is necessary it could be made that going below 10 penalizes you more than bonuses for going above. Example:

Strength above 10: +weapon damage +fortitude
Strength below 10: -weapon damage -fortitude +duration of Strength afflictions on the character

Resolve above 10: +healing, +spell damage, +will (let's kick deflection from here or something)
Resolve below 10: -healing, -spell damage, -will, -deflection

etc.

Although I don’t think this is necessarily a good thing to do.

I did ask about Deflection on Twitter; you can see Josh’s answer just checking the thread where he announced the change.

God I hope this gets reverted.

 

am suspecting any number o' abilities is gonna get changes in the next few months.  has only been a little over a week.  wouldn't worry too much at this point.

 

HA! Good Fun!

I did ask about Deflection on Twitter; you can see Josh’s answer just checking the thread where he announced the change.

You mean this?

https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/935581703900295168

 

That doesn't sound very specific or promising.

What about something like this?

 

Strength (STR) - ±3% Weapon Damage, ±2 Fortitude
Constitution (CON) - ±5% Health, ±1 Deflection, ±2 Fortitude
Dexterity (DEX) - ±3% Action Speed, ±1 Accuracy, ±2 Reflex
Perception (PER) - ±3 Interrupt, ±6% Area of Effect, ±2 Reflex
Intellect (INT) - ±5% Duration, ±3 Concentration, ±2 Will
Resolve (RES) - ±3% Spell Damage/Healing, ±2 Will

 

EDIT:

 

My bad, I forgot Interrupt and Concentration don't exist in the same way anymore...

After reading Climhazzard's post:

 

Strength (STR) - +3% Weapon Damage, +2 Fortitude
Constitution (CON) - +5% Health, +2 Fortitude
Dexterity (DEX) - +3% Action Speed, +1 Deflection, +2 Reflex

Perception (PER) - +6% Area of Effect, +1 Accuracy, +2 Reflex

Intellect (INT) - +3% Spell Damage/Healing, +2 Will

Resolve (RES) - +5% Beneficial Inspiration/Affliction Duration, -5% Hostile Inspiration/Affliction Duration, +2 Will

 

or

 

Strength (STR) - +3% Weapon Damage, +2 Fortitude
Constitution (CON) - +5% Health, +1 Deflection, +2 Fortitude

Dexterity (DEX) - +3% Action Speed, +1 Accuracy, +2 Reflex

Perception (PER) - +6% Area of Effect, +1 Accuracy, +2 Reflex

Intellect (INT) - +3% Spell Damage/Healing, +2 Will

Resolve (RES) - +5% Inspiration/Affliction Duration (Received/Cast), -5% Affliction Duration (Received), +2 Will

 

I also like Aramintai's suggestion to remove Deflection from Attributes entirely, since it makes sense under either Con or Dex.

Edited November 28, 20178 yr by CENIC

Constitution (CON) - ±5% Health, ±1 Deflection, ±2 Fortitude

 

Anything better than putting Deflection in Resolve. Though more logically I think it better suits Dexterity.

Why nobody dump Per, is Accuracy more important than Deflection?

Wasn't Deflection originally Might and Dex, Reflex was Dex and Per, Fort was Might and Con, Will was Int and Resolve?

 

I think it makes sense to return Deflection to Strength if Str no longer boosts non-weapon damage.

Not my wildest dream though, wanted to see Resolve becoming something else

Well anyway not a deal breaker for me though, lets see how it play next patch.

Why nobody dump Per, is Accuracy more important than Deflection?

 

Yeah, especially with the increased miss rates now that grazing is no longer a thing.

 

Currently I'd only dump Per on a Fighter who took the ability that gives you grazing. Maybe on a pure defensive buffer/healer.

Edited November 28, 20178 yr by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

Oh this is another slight resolve change from Josh

 

Zore posted:

I hope they really rebalance how stats are checked for conversations or we're going to end up with lovely caster supremacy issues where their primary stat unlocks all the good dialogue that resolve did in PoE1.

 

 

Dialogue skills are used far more for checks than straight stats.

 

As of two months ago, Resolve had 32 checks, Might had 34. By comparison, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Bluff are all checked 100+ times.

Edited November 28, 20178 yr by draego