The Chainsaw

[KDubya]

With the new penetration system you no longer need a big damage weapon like a Great Sword to get past armor, you just need penetration. So a fast attack speed small weapon with good penetration can outperform big slow hitters.

 

So we want penetration.

 

What else would be good? Speed

 

What goes great with speed and penetration? Damage

 

OK lets see where we can get speed, damage and penetration.

 

​Penetration

• Berserker Frenzy adds the Tenacious buff for +4 penetration
• Monks get Thunderous Blows which adds Tenacious buff for +4 penetration
• Devoted get +3 penetration with their chosen weapon
• Ciphers get +1 penetration from Hammering Thoughts

 

​Speed

 

• Dual wielding gets you -50% attack speed
• Fighters get two weapon style for -20% attack speed
• Fighters reduce armor penalty by 20% with Armored Grace
• Berserkers get -25% attack speed from Frenzy
• Barbarians get +20% on kill from Bloodlust
• Monks get -20% attack speed from Swift Strikes and +5 Dexterity 

 

Damage

 

• Berserker Frenzy adds +5 Might
• Barbarians get Carnage
• Ciphers get +40%  ​+60% damage from Biting Whip + Soul Whip
• ​Monks get +50% lightning lash from ​Lightning Strikes
• Fighters get weapon specialization for +15% damage
• Barbarians get +20% from One Stands Alone when surrounded by two or more
• Barbarians get +25% from Blooded when low on health

 

So it looks like some combination of Berserker, Cipher (Soul Blade), Monk (Shattered Pillar) and Devoted

 

Ranking the classes you get:

 

Penetration

1. Devoted/Berserker for +7 penetration
2. Devoted/Monk for +7 penetration
3. Berserker/Cipher for +5 penetration
4. Monk/Cipher for +5 penetration 
5. Devoted/Cipher for +4 penetration
6. Berserker/Monk for +4 penetration (its the same buff for each)

 

 

Speed (not including dex)

 

1. Berserker/Devoted 50 (dual wield)+20(two weapon style)+25(frenzy) + 20 (Armored Grace) +20 (on kill Bloodlust) = 135 less armor
2. Monk/Devoted 50 (dual wield) + 20(two weapon style) + 20 (Armored Grace) +33 (Swift Strikes) = 123 less armor
3. Monk/Berserker 50 (Dual Wield) + 13 (Swift Stikes Dex) + 25 (Frenzy) + 20 (on kill Bloodlust) = 108 less armor
4. Berserker/Cipher 50 (dual wield) +25 (Frenzy) + 20 (on kill Bloodlust) = 95 less armor
5. Devoted Cipher 50 (dual wield) + 20 (two weapon style) + 20 (armored grace) = 90 less armor
6. Monk/Cipher 50 (dual wield) + 33 (Swift Strikes) = 83 less armor

 

Damage

 

​Looks to be too complicated to actually figure it but it looks like:

1. ​Berserker/Cipher
2. Berserker/Monk
3. Monk/Cipher
4. ​Berserker/Devoted
5. Monk/Devoted
6. Devoted/Cipher

 

 

The top contenders look to be Berserker/Cipher and Berserker/Devoted. I'd give the nod to the Berserker/Cipher for the utility of Cipher powers, Soul Annihilation and that you can keep Might at base and spend elsewhere due to the huge boost from Biting Whip.

 

The Chainsaw will be a Witch (Berserker/Soul Blade)

 

Race = human for the fighting spirit or whatever suits your fancy

 

Might 10 - soul whip adds so much that +3 per point is not real good  should perhaps add some here since Might acts differently now.

Constitution 15 - health is life

Dexterity 15 - 13% faster action speed

Perception 10 using accurate clubs plus you have focus

Intellect 18 - more duration and more AoE for spells and carnage

Resolve 10 

 

I'd take few cipher powers like Mind Wave (or whatever at creation) and Mind Blades (I really like the power, it has good range, fast cast, good penetration and hits several enemies), Biting Whip and Iron Will. The rest will come from Barbarian passives. I'd skip Shout and Barbaric Blow to save the charges for Frenzy. 

 

Weapons to use are fast speed. I'd start with clubs and stillettos on switch for when you need more penetration. Add in hatchets when you can.

Edited November 25, 2017 by KDubya

[MaxQuest]

Nice analysis KDubya. I'll add 2c though:

 

Ciphers get +40% damage from Biting Whip

Just wanted to note that Soul Blades can currently get +80%: image

> +20% Soul Whipe

> +40% Bitting Whip (yes it stack atm)

> +20% Draining Whip (you can get both Bitting and Draining if you multi-class with cipher being second class)

 

Might 10 - soul whip adds so much that +3 per point is not real good

In current iteration the effect of might is multiplicative.

In PoE1 you could make a low-average mig cipher focused on crowd-control only. But in Deadfire, MIG impact is way higher.

 

Resolve 10

Without RES giving concentration now, it can be completely dumped on all dps oriented characters. Putting those points in CON can potentially increase the survivability by a higher amount. But truth be told cipher really wants MIG and DEX right now. And even PER, as grazes impediment our dps way higher than in PoE1.

 

I'd take few cipher powers like Mind Wave (or whatever at creation) and Mind Blades (I really like the power, it has good range, fast cast, good penetration and hits several enemies).

Cipher powers are in really bad spot right now. It's way more efficient to just dump all the focus in Soul Annihilation than to keep waiting for casting and recovery durations.

 

Btw:

- Mind Blades would stop bouncing on miss in PoE1. Is it the same in Deadfire?

- Has someone used Mind Wave and actually prone'd someone? I've tried it ~8 times. It was dealing damage to main target and that's it.

Edited November 25, 2017 by MaxQuest

[AndreaColombo]

 

Just wanted to note that Soul Blades can currently get +80%

> +20% Soul Whipe

> +40% Bitting Whip (yes it stack atm)

> +20% Draining Whip (you can get both Bitting and Draining if you multi-class with cipher being second class)

 

 

 I'm reporting this as a bug, since it most clearly is one. If it's any consolation, it pains me to do so (I'm a sucker for power creep)

Edited November 25, 2017 by AndreaColombo

[MaxQuest]

I'm reporting this as a bug, since it most clearly is one. If it's any consolation, it pains me to do so (I'm a sucker for power creep)

Yeah)

 

I've seen that Dam already reported ability to get both Draining and Bitting whips, but he didn't mention that they stack.

[KDubya]

Are you sure that Might acts differently now?

 

It looks to me like it just gets summed up with the rest of the damage boosters.

[AndreaColombo]

Are you sure that Might acts differently now?

 

It was confirmed here by BMac, though it's apparently not set in stone and might change by release.

[KDubya]

For sure need to add some Might then, applying multiplicative to all the soul whip bonuses is going to add up fast.

 

Guess I'll be dumping some Resolve

[Gromnir]

For sure need to add some Might then, applying multiplicative to all the soul whip bonuses is going to add up fast.

 

Guess I'll be dumping some Resolve

is also worth considering hellwalker due to new might math.  a dwarf with 21 might and lesser wounds is gonna start any combat with 24 might. what might does and does not stack with is peculiar and a bit nonsensical at the moment, but simple casting the 1st tier priest might inspiration gets you +5 stack-- so 29 might almost from the get-go. can get 7 more wounds and 36 might by being hit a couple times. food choices and resting bonuses is gonna have the low-level hellwalker consistent exceeding 40 might with the resulting bonuses multiplied. 

 

then there will be gear.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[dunehunter]

I feel a bit sad for Rogue because they are labeled as Strikers but they don't have anyway to get bonus penetration other than multi-class (not include assassin here because backstab is a different playstyle). A pure Rogue feels weak comparing with other Strikers. And Barbarians are not even Strikers but they do better here. Maybe Obsidian should reconsider the roles of classes...

[Boeroer]

Maybe at lvl 10...

[Gromnir]

I feel a bit sad for Rogue because they are labeled as Strikers but they don't have anyway to get bonus penetration other than multi-class (not include assassin here because backstab is a different playstyle). A pure Rogue feels weak comparing with other Strikers. And Barbarians are not even Strikers but they do better here. Maybe Obsidian should reconsider the roles of classes...

 

...

 

you identify a problem: lack o' penetration enhancers for rogues. the solution you suggest is altering the role o' classes such as the rogue?

 

room is too cold? could find a way to alter ambient temperature (make adjustments to penetration) or maybe wear warmer clothes (provide rogues with similar penetration talents) or 'could do like the folks in jurassic park and genetic engineer some amphibian dna into humans (make fundamental changes to the rogue class). maybe start small 'fore trying to give rogue's antifreeze blood.

 

consensus is extreme elusive on these boards.  get a clear majority o' folks to agree 'pon anything is difficult. nevertheless, have seen very little resistance to the notion o' deadfire's penetration mechanic requiring, at the very least, fine tuning.  'fore we throw in the towel on the rogue as striker, might wanna wait more than 1 whole week of beta.  am suspecting penetration is gonna be altered more than once. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[dunehunter]

 

I feel a bit sad for Rogue because they are labeled as Strikers but they don't have anyway to get bonus penetration other than multi-class (not include assassin here because backstab is a different playstyle). A pure Rogue feels weak comparing with other Strikers. And Barbarians are not even Strikers but they do better here. Maybe Obsidian should reconsider the roles of classes...

 

...

 

you identify a problem: lack o' penetration enhancers for rogues. the solution you suggest is altering the role o' classes such as the rogue?

 

room is too cold? could find a way to alter ambient temperature (make adjustments to penetration) or maybe wear warmer clothes (provide rogues with similar penetration talents) or 'could do like the folks in jurassic park and genetic engineer some amphibian dna into humans (make fundamental changes to the rogue class). maybe start small 'fore trying to give rogue's antifreeze blood.

 

consensus is extreme elusive on these boards.  get a clear majority o' folks to agree 'pon anything is difficult. nevertheless, have seen very little resistance to the notion o' deadfire's penetration mechanic requiring, at the very least, fine tuning.  'fore we throw in the towel on the rogue as striker, might wanna wait more than 1 whole week of beta.  am suspecting penetration is gonna be altered more than once. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Not Rogue but Barbarian, I think they are more like Striker/Defender than the role they are defined right now based on their abilities both active and passive. Rogue is fine but a little bit lackluster without penetration if played as single class.

Edited November 25, 2017 by dunehunter

[Gromnir]

doesn't change anything.

 

to be fair to obsidian, the barbarian were described as a "front-liner" along with fighters and monks in the initial poe role threads.  the barbarian can tank and off-tank, but it has always been functional an ambulatory aoe-friendly fireball. the problem with the barbarian, as we see it,  were not the initial role, but rather the over-dependence 'pon carnage and the capacity to turn the barbarian into a nuker with extreme limited range and high durability.  particular with multi-classing, the limiting aspect o' barbarian carnage is less significant in deadfire.

 

only a week.  am still kicking the tires.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[KDubya]

 

For sure need to add some Might then, applying multiplicative to all the soul whip bonuses is going to add up fast.

 

Guess I'll be dumping some Resolve

is also worth considering hellwalker due to new might math.  a dwarf with 21 might and lesser wounds is gonna start any combat with 24 might. what might does and does not stack with is peculiar and a bit nonsensical at the moment, but simple casting the 1st tier priest might inspiration gets you +5 stack-- so 29 might almost from the get-go. can get 7 more wounds and 36 might by being hit a couple times. food choices and resting bonuses is gonna have the low-level hellwalker consistent exceeding 40 might with the resulting bonuses multiplied. 

 

then there will be gear.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Having the opportunity to make a tanky Monk that doesn't need to get hit just appeals to me entirely too much, hence I always look at Shattered Pillar first and usually only. That and the damage increase taken from Helwalker sounds like a quick way to get dropped.

 

Is that an additive or a multiplicative penalty?

 

Even as an additive it effectively makes every attack against you a critical hit. Meanwhile a Shattered Pillar can keep his deflection up and not take any damage and still have enough wounds to bang out Torments as needed. Maybe at higher levels having more wounds might be a bigger boost but right now at max level 9 being stuck at five is plenty.

[dunehunter]

 

 

For sure need to add some Might then, applying multiplicative to all the soul whip bonuses is going to add up fast.

 

Guess I'll be dumping some Resolve

is also worth considering hellwalker due to new might math.  a dwarf with 21 might and lesser wounds is gonna start any combat with 24 might. what might does and does not stack with is peculiar and a bit nonsensical at the moment, but simple casting the 1st tier priest might inspiration gets you +5 stack-- so 29 might almost from the get-go. can get 7 more wounds and 36 might by being hit a couple times. food choices and resting bonuses is gonna have the low-level hellwalker consistent exceeding 40 might with the resulting bonuses multiplied. 

 

then there will be gear.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Having the opportunity to make a tanky Monk that doesn't need to get hit just appeals to me entirely too much, hence I always look at Shattered Pillar first and usually only. That and the damage increase taken from Helwalker sounds like a quick way to get dropped.

 

Is that an additive or a multiplicative penalty?

 

Even as an additive it effectively makes every attack against you a critical hit. Meanwhile a Shattered Pillar can keep his deflection up and not take any damage and still have enough wounds to bang out Torments as needed. Maybe at higher levels having more wounds might be a bigger boost but right now at max level 9 being stuck at five is plenty.

 

 

Yeah for most DPS combo, Shattered Pillar is better than Helwalker. But if Helwalker combes with healer it would work perfectly. Like Helwalker/Kind Waywares, Helwalker/Lifegiver.

[Gromnir]

 

 

For sure need to add some Might then, applying multiplicative to all the soul whip bonuses is going to add up fast.

 

Guess I'll be dumping some Resolve

is also worth considering hellwalker due to new might math.  a dwarf with 21 might and lesser wounds is gonna start any combat with 24 might. what might does and does not stack with is peculiar and a bit nonsensical at the moment, but simple casting the 1st tier priest might inspiration gets you +5 stack-- so 29 might almost from the get-go. can get 7 more wounds and 36 might by being hit a couple times. food choices and resting bonuses is gonna have the low-level hellwalker consistent exceeding 40 might with the resulting bonuses multiplied. 

 

then there will be gear.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Having the opportunity to make a tanky Monk that doesn't need to get hit just appeals to me entirely too much, hence I always look at Shattered Pillar first and usually only. That and the damage increase taken from Helwalker sounds like a quick way to get dropped.

 

Is that an additive or a multiplicative penalty?

 

Even as an additive it effectively makes every attack against you a critical hit. Meanwhile a Shattered Pillar can keep his deflection up and not take any damage and still have enough wounds to bang out Torments as needed. Maybe at higher levels having more wounds might be a bigger boost but right now at max level 9 being stuck at five is plenty.

 

from a practical perspective, after a couple complete plays o' the beta with helwalker variants, am not having seen the increased damage penalty as being anything near a death sentence, or even much o' a limitation, at least as far as beta combats is concerned.  if the damage penalty were such an issue, Gromnir wouldn't be able to so regular and predictable achieve and maintain 10 wounds w/o dying, yes? at the moment, any damage can functionally be negated with enough ar, but just for funsies, the test subject for helwakers we has been most using is a contemplative with an eothas deity choice.  at a mere 5 athletics and easily attainable 36 might, our second wind is resulting in a 106.8 heal. is pretty much an extra life for a level 6 contemplative.  might wanna check what higher athletics and might numbers produce for second wind, and second wind is "cast" instantaneous.

 

for particular tough enemies, pile on the armour.  you are still gonna get your wounds, but the incoming damage can be limited considerable. at the moment, armour beats damage. also, as a member o' a party, you need not think o' such penalties in isolation. cipher and priest has abilities which can grant a partymate functional short-term invulnerability.  the paladin's version o' lay-on-hands which grants robust is gonna prolong the helwalker's life even 'gainst tough foes. etc. 

 

a paladin/helwaker ain't necessarily the bestest dps, but is gonna be doing massive heals while the big paladin defenses will reduce incoming damage significant. as long as the paladin in question can self-target with lay-on hands, most paladin choices will be advantageous.  kind wayfarers is a bit bugged at the moment though.

 

anyoffensivecaster/helwalker is gonna be doing serious damage... 'least that would be our guess following implementation o' the new penetration scheme.  at the moment, huge damage just don't matter for offensive casters as their ap typical is in the suckage range sans empowerings.  

 

helwalker sure ain't gonna be a tank or off-tank candidate.  bosses with big accuracy and damage potential is gonna put a serious hurt on helwalkers.  even so, a +35 or +40 might in deadfire is a serious advantage, even more than such a might score were in poe. find a way to exploit big might shouldn't take too much effort... though as we noted in the priest thread, at the moment, heals seem to be the biggest winner o' big might. am suspecting such will change.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[AndreaColombo]

Devoted/Helwalker is my current frontrunner for a Deadfire Lady of Pain. The increased damage taken is offset by wearing heavy armor to curb enemy DPS and having Constant Recovery, which is boosted by your MIG score (great synergy with Helwalker.)

Edited November 26, 2017 by AndreaColombo

[KDubya]

Re-doing the build based on new Might info.

 

The Witch Chainsaw Berserker/Soul Blade

 

Race - Human - you will be getting damaged so getting boosts at low health sounds good

 

Might 20 - big damage that is multiplicative

Con 15 - I like a large health pool 

Dex 10 - more would be nice for casting

Perception 10 - need for casting

Intellect 18 - duration of frenzy and for carnage

Resolve 5 - -5 deflection, who cares

 

For Armor your going to want light like Hide if you want to cast any spells. With Dual wielding heavy armor is not that bad for attack speed but its hell on casting. Your Frenzy bumps armor by 4 so Hide become Plate.

 

Downside  bad deflection

 

To overcome the downside with the Witch I came up with two superb contenders - The Inquisitor Gldpact/Soul Blade and the Fanatic Bleak Walker/Berserker.

 

The Inquisitor Chainsaw

 

Race - Coastal Aumaua or Dwarf

 

Might 21 multiplicative damage add that gets to multiply biting whip and sworn enemy

Con 15 - I like a big health pool

Dex 10 

Perception 10 - need for casting

Intellect 17 - for longer buffs and healing

Resolve 5 - -5 deflection who cares

 

With Deep Faith and Faith and Conviction you'll have like 30+ more deflection than the Witch. By using Gilded Enmity you get +4 armor, add in Inspired Defense for another +2 and you can hang with the light armor you'll need to be able to get any spell casts off in a reasonable speed. Use you Sworn Enemy for +15 accuracy and +20% damage on top of soul whip and you beat things down quickly, dropping a Soul Annihilation as desired for extra massive raw damage.

 

Finally the Fanatic

Race  - Dwarf or Coastal Aumaua

 

Might 21 multiplicative

Con 15 life is good

Dex 15 - faster attacks

Perception 5 - all your attacks are with weapons that will benefit from your Weapon Focus

Intellect 17 - for the durations and the AoE on Carnage

Res 5 again a measly loss of one deflection per dropped point

 

This guy is the biggest monster of them all. Paladin adds so much defensive power its not funny. Put this guy in Plate and he still attacks every 1.3 seconds with his fast speed weapons which goes to  0.9 seconds with Frenzy and Bloodlust. Even raged his deflection is pretty good and he has +5 to his armor from thick skinned and rage. He even gets auras.

 

His accuracy aura stacks with his weapon focus but the armor boost aura gets overwritten by his Frenzy with Hardy.

 

I'm thinking he needs to be called the Carbide Chainsaw or maybe Buzz Saw?

[nmnighteyes]

Any updates to the "Carbide Chainsaw" here less than a week before release??

It's just up my alley since I would most likely have been playing either a Barbarian or a Paladin...

[KDubya]

Any updates to the "Carbide Chainsaw" here less than a week before release??

 

It's just up my alley since I would most likely have been playing either a Barbarian or a Paladin...

 

I'm waiting to see what the actual high level abilities are that a multiclass misses out on before I decide whether multi or single is better. Also awaiting to see what actually goes live as far as armor, penetration, weapon damage, attack speed and recovery.

 

But a Berserker/Paladin (BleakWalker or Gold Pact) looks to be very strong. Will have to be careful with the self damage from Berserk early as your hit point pool is small at the start. The Bleak Walker Berserker also has a nice role play synergy - you believe that violence solves all problems so overwhelming violence from frenzy is the best course of action

[nmnighteyes]

Since taking the Berserker specifically, I was wondering, how big of a problem is the friendly fire for your other melees?
I was considering putting Pallegina near him for the AR aura if I went Gold Pact since they don't get Auras according to the Wiki.

Assuming friendly fire is a problem, would you consider dropping some Intellect to decrease the size of Carnage?

[KDubya]

Since taking the Berserker specifically, I was wondering, how big of a problem is the friendly fire for your other melees?

I was considering putting Pallegina near him for the AR aura if I went Gold Pact since they don't get Auras according to the Wiki.

 

Assuming friendly fire is a problem, would you consider dropping some Intellect to decrease the size of Carnage?

 

I wouldn't drop Intellect on a Berserker, I like to go with a 15 for the longer duration for Frenzy. 

 

If it kills the team who cares? After the fight just eat some hardtack and rest. 

 

You would want to avoid friendly fire of Chants, auras benefitting enemies and AoE healing from Kind Wayfarer affecting enemies.

[nmnighteyes]

So, all intended abilities have been released

You still think, the Chainsaw is viable?

The really high level paladin abilities look sweet as does the barbarians...
So you think the synegy of the 2 classes will be good enough to make up for not getting access to those?

 

And yeah, i'm being a little pushy, sorry about that, just frustrated about not being able to start the game up yet and trying to cope in here ^_^

 

Also, can you confirm for me if multiclass will cap at level 7 abilities or higher or lower?
I've gotten a little contradicting information from some streamers

Edited May 7, 2018 by nmnighteyes

[Wiseude]

So, all intended abilities have been released

 

You still think, the Chainsaw is viable?

The really high level paladin abilities look sweet as does the barbarians...

So you think the synegy of the 2 classes will be good enough to make up for not getting access to those?

 

And yeah, i'm being a little pushy, sorry about that, just frustrated about not being able to start the game up yet and trying to cope in here ^_^

 

Also, can you confirm for me if multiclass will cap at level 7 abilities or higher or lower?

I've gotten a little contradicting information from some streamers

Asking the same question as you. I kept an eye on this class for some while now.

[KDubya]

So, all intended abilities have been released

 

You still think, the Chainsaw is viable?

The really high level paladin abilities look sweet as does the barbarians...

So you think the synegy of the 2 classes will be good enough to make up for not getting access to those?

 

And yeah, i'm being a little pushy, sorry about that, just frustrated about not being able to start the game up yet and trying to cope in here ^_^

 

Also, can you confirm for me if multiclass will cap at level 7 abilities or higher or lower?

I've gotten a little contradicting information from some streamers

 

 

It's definitely viable. Combining any two of the melee classes I had in the original post - Berserker, Soul Blade, Paladin, Devoted, Shattered Pillar - would make for a great melee monster. There have been a lot of changes from Beta 1.0 when I wrote this and the actual game so some combos will be better than others. Also I haven't looked at any streams or ability lists so I'm not up on what the high level abilities are.

 

A lot depends on where armor, penetration and attack speed end up. Dual wielding might not be the absolute best anymore and wearing armor might or might not be useful.

 

Since Beta 3.0 I've gotten a lot more positive on single classes, especially Monks. The  quicker access to higher level abilities is really good. Lots of classes have pretty poor low level abilities to pick and a multiclass is stuck there for a long time. Plus a single class gets so many more picks in the one class. A level 20 single class would have 28 abilities while a multi would have at best 20 in one class and 7 in the other.

 

I'm in Afghanistan so probably won't be downloading that quickly, will take a day or two. Plus I'm rocking Battletech so DeadFire will have to wait.