how does the penetration mechanic feels like?

[KDubya]

What if two handed weapons had a bonus to penetration?

 

That would give them a purpose since currently extra damage without penetration doesn't do much.

 

The current system is realistic in that armor is breached or it is not. Consider current ballistic armor - a pistol causes bruising but a rifle punches through and acts as if you didn't have the armor. That is what we have in game now.

 

The way to balance is to not have every higher level enemy automatically have better armor. Give some armor, give some a lot more hit points, have different armors have different weaknesses. Make it so you need to swap weapons types to get to the one that works or else just grit your teeth and deal with the -70% damage.

[Answermancer]

What if two handed weapons had a bonus to penetration?

How is that different from the old system then?

 

Two handers did more damage per hit, therefore they broke through DR more (and it was more intuitive, IMO). I thought part of the point of this system was to equalize how one-handers and two-handers work to some extent, without the big disparity between them on armored targets (which probably confused casual players, although I don't see how this system would be any less confusing to them in practice, since now you have to know a magical penetration value on your weapon as well).

Edited November 20, 2017 by Answermancer

[Boeroer]

The system needs rework. But what I like is that weapons with high PEN usually have lower base damage. Estoc for example has significantly lower base damage than a great sword.

 

If you combine Hel-Hyraf with a great sword things get really interesting. But as I already said: It's ALL about PEN  (or raw damage )at the moment and that's not good.

[Madscientist]

I have not read everything that was posted before me in this thread, but I dislike the penetration system too.

 

It is all or nothing now. One point of pen or armor makes the difference between 30% and 100% damage.

So it is obvious that maximizing pen is needed for the attacker while maximizing armor rating is needed for the defender.

Abilities that raise your pen or reduce enemy DR are OP.

Weapon modal that raise pen are either super powerful (if the enemy has 1 or 2 more DR than your base pen), otherwise they are completely useless.

 

I would like a more linear approach too.

If your pen is 1 point lower than enemy DR you deal less damage, but its not either 30% or 100%

using different damage types would still be importent, even with a more linear approach.

[Nail]

It feels fine, just plus one important stat to maintain.

Most of the beta bestiary has DR around 8-10.

So far I've tried fighter, paladin and ranger, not counting given mage, rouge and priest - it's pretty easy to maintain pen around 10-12 so...

Now having a really high DR can be really worth it, sacrificing recovery.

I dig it.

[AndreaColombo]

Having one more thing to account for is good; having that thing be disproportionately more important than everything else is not.

[Katarack21]

Is there currently a talent for wizards to gain increased spell pen? Because that seems important.

[Boeroer]

Nope. But they can use Expose Vulnerabilities for -2 armor (if they even can hit with it and of course if they are not excluded from that spell).

 

The only thing that is powerful about wizards atm are the spells that boost your defenses (all very fast cast, great effect because no grazes) and the auto-hit spells like Thrust oTV and Missiles. I use an Ogre Corpse Eater (Transmuter/Barbarian) at the moment who casts Arcane Veil + Wizard's Double (or something else like Mirrored Image) before transforming and it's quite good - because he doean't go down while dealing awesome AoE damage with his hig dmg "clubs" (not really clubs, I guess more like druid's natural weapons) which get boosted by stellar MIG. CON is also through the roof... And eating corpses seems to be so fitting for an ogre, don't you think?

Edited November 20, 2017 by Boeroer

[Sedrefilos]

Do you think 1 point of difference = 10% damage would work better?
Like pen 5 VS armor 5 = 100% damage.

pen 5 vs armor 4 = 110% damage.

pen 4 vs armor 5 = 90% damage.

And so on?

Edited November 20, 2017 by Sedrefilos

[MaxQuest]

I'm not committed to any final decision but at this point I'm leaning towards suggesting a sliding scale for penetration, where each point above/ below defender's AR would add or subtract 5% damage (additively not multiplicatively).

I have tried to visualize this, as it's easier to get a wider view:

 

 

I think it's important to keep in mind that Pen-AR does affect not only our dps, but also the survivability of our "tanks".

I've added a quick v2. But still thinking of all the pros and cons.

 

---

Do you think 1 point of difference = 10% damage would work better?

Like pen 5 VS armor 5 = 100% damage.

pen 5 vs armor 4 = 110% damage.

pen 4 vs armor 5 = 90% damage.

And so on?

Here how it looks:

 

 

 

---

Btw, if you are interested in PoE1 situation (although there we could get a much lower PEN minus DR situations):

 

 

Edited November 20, 2017 by MaxQuest

[theBalthazar]

If I were a developer, I would find this system complicated to balance the game.

 

Because if we think about it :

 

the most important value is Armor class of the ennemy. ONE point more or less can change everything in this system...

 

Balance spells VS spells  : ok

But balance all creatures compared to the different classes and all ...?^^

 

Good luck Obsidian : p

 

Old system had problems, but here, it is an another level. This gives me the impression of a minimum value to be exceeded for rule the game. (not good for novices).

 

They still have the different defenses to limit the breakage and the Health points. Case of Big boss for exemple.

 

-----

 

EDIT Files of Max : So if I understand, you are for a semi-gradual system and Mr Hieronymous a full gradual system ?

 

I prefer this systems that current, but there is another question : everything is connected. So, if you mod like this, Do the weapons (and weapon modals) remain adapted to this system?

Edited November 20, 2017 by theBalthazar

[MaxQuest]

the most important value is Armor class of the ennemy. ONE point more or less can change everything in this system...

As I understood, Josh's idea was that we will check target's AR and switch to the best fitting weapon.

 

But this is hardly happening, as it adds extra micro. We as players, like a flowing river will always try to find the easiest and fastest way. Usually it's just learning/listing all the AR values and plan the most optimal weapon for every member from the start.

 

EDIT Files of Max : So if I understand, you are for a semi-gradual system and Mr Hieronymous a full gradual system?

Yeap. And yes, I like a more ladder'ing approach.

This enables small sweet spots, and also could suddenly make some weapons more efficient at 75%, while others (think stilettos) at 125%. So we'll have to plan in which [Pen-AR] window we would like to operate, on per-build basis.

 

I prefer this systems that current, but there is another question : everything is connected. So, if you mod like this, Do the weapons (and weapon modals) remain adapted to this system?

Hard to say. So far I think it's closer to yes, with the exception of PEN related modals whose values could (maybe) ask for rebalancing. But then again, we'll need to make the list of all weapons, their modal values and their attack/recovery durations first. Edited November 20, 2017 by MaxQuest

[AndreaColombo]

^ so true about planning!

[theBalthazar]

Finally, 30 % of damage only is also for boost the fighter. : p

 

It seem  like Obsidian create Pillars 2 for the Fighter and tanks : p

 

But with this attitude, you punish team glass canon like the one I have on POE1.

 

Except if there a tone of penetration that stack for reach x2 (only +30 % damage boost...), glass canon is actually punish. favor in attack : Average. Favor in defense : Very high. It is a actual game and system design.

 

the system asks us to create a character with average stats and the biggest armor.

 

Combos are limited, since simply to reach 100%, no more, no less (In attack. Give full attack, sufficient) or to be below 100% no more no less (In defense, 30 % sufficient to tank). We turn around the average. 

 

The game does not push to take risks and is very closed. Curious to see the fights against the big bosses ...

Edited November 20, 2017 by theBalthazar

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

I'm not committed to any final decision but at this point I'm leaning towards suggesting a sliding scale for penetration, where each point above/ below defender's AR would add or subtract 5% damage (additively not multiplicatively).

I have tried to visualize this, as it's easier to get a wider view:

 

poiler]

 

 

 

Oh wow, I was not ex[ecting that kind of detailed response to my suggestion, I was just taking a stab. Honored to get that kind of response!

 

Overall I actually prefer your v2 suggestion to mine (it seems less dramatic) BUT I think there's one issue that would need to be dealt with either way: the high and low end of the scale.

 

Two examples from the current beta:

 

 

 

1) The Sand Blights have a penetration of 9 on their fire damage attack. A wizard wearing Padded Armor would have a Burn AR of 3. She casts Bulwark Against the Elements for an additional 5 DR -- and it, like goggles, does nothing, because it only brings her up to 8 Burn AR.  Similarly, without the spell, switching from Padded to Leather also does nothing, because even though Leather has 2 more AR vs Burn, that doesn't matter at all because it's way below enemy PEN regardless.

 

 2) The Skulking Terror has a Penetration of 11 for some ungodly reason. I'm not sure exactly what the threshold for the 30% bonus damage is, but I strongly suspect that most adventurers in the beta would actually be better off fighting it naked, because they'll get hit with the 30% penalty either way and so all their armor is accomplishing is to slow their recovery time.

 

Capping the extremes would keep that problem in -- in the first example, there's no reason to switch from Padded to Leather, and in the second, there's no reason to wear armor at all, you're taking max capped damage regardless.

 

So that's the reason I was suggesting a sliding linear scale rather than one with capped extremes; with a slidiing linear progression, players always know that (for example) casting Bulwark Against the Elements and increasing their fire AR by five will always reduce incoming fire damage by 50%; there' s no weird gully where abilities or items become pointless because they player has failed to meet an invisible threshold. 

 

That said I'm not at all married to the five percent number -- I don't really care if it's 1% or 10% or a parabola function or the fibonnaci sequence, as such, so long as there aren't weird non-intuitive holes where sensible player actions like switching armor types or casting a Bulwark spell suddenly become pointless.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[MaxQuest]

Finally, 30 % of damage only is also for boost the fighter. : p

 

It seem  like Obsidian create Pillars 2 for the Fighter and tanks : p

 

But with this attitude, you punish team glass canon like the one I have on POE1.

Ayee indeed.

 

I always felt that PoE1 encourages us to:

- either build a tanky party

- or a dps heavy with lots of hard cc

 

My own preference was going for the second route. But being 4h into Deadfire Beta, it feels to be hardly even viable now.

Looks down at Mercenary Wizard.

 

So far feeling pushed towards 5 high-armored dual-wielders, 3 of them multi-classing in fighter and 3 in lifegiver/priest/wayfarer.

 

---

Edit: added reply to Dr. Hieronymous Alloy:

 

Oh wow, I was not ex[ecting that kind of detailed response to my suggestion, I was just taking a stab. Honored to get that kind of response!

Well... There it is)

 

Overall I actually prefer your v2 suggestion to mine (it seems less dramatic) BUT I think there's one issue that would need to be dealt with either way: the high and low end of the scale.

I understand what you are saying. But I think lower cap of 75% damage reduction should not be touched. This guarantees that 25% of damage always goes through. That's 5% more than in PoE1, and 5% less than the 30% threshold set by Josh.

 

As for upper cap - tbh I haven't made my mind yet. It would be better to roam across Eora for a little more =)

But so far, I think 175% or 200% (tops) is fair. As it would require PEN-AR to be greater than 8, or greater than 12 respectively; which will come mostly from crit's x1.5 multiplier.

 

I have examined your examples, and v2 is suiting them well too:

- e1. In case of Sand Blight, casting Bulwark would decrease PEN minus AR from 6 to 1. And incoming damage would be reduced from 125% to 100% (according to v2); or from 130% to 105% (according to v1).

And if you had Leather, casting Bulwark would decrease PEN min AR from 4 to -1. This would reduce incoming damage from 125% to 75% (according to v2); or from 125% to 95% (according to v1)

- e2. According to current PEN system it's indeed better to fight him naked... unless you can get 12 AR, or substantially debuff his PEN. While in both of our suggestions, the AR will still be useful.

Edited November 20, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

Edit: added reply to Dr. Hieronymous Alloy:

 

Oh wow, I was not ex[ecting that kind of detailed response to my suggestion, I was just taking a stab. Honored to get that kind of response!

Well... There it is)

 

Overall I actually prefer your v2 suggestion to mine (it seems less dramatic) BUT I think there's one issue that would need to be dealt with either way: the high and low end of the scale.

I understand what you are saying. But I think lower cap of 75% damage reduction should not be touched. This guarantees that 25% of damage always goes through. That's 5% more than in PoE1, and 5% less than the 30% threshold set by Josh.

 

 

 

 

This took me a second but then I realized you meant the other lower end! Low DR being high Pen and low pen being high DR etc.

 

What exactly is the trigger for the 30% bonus damage? I suspect that not just the skulking terror, but a *lot* of enemies in the beta, you're probably better off fighting them wearing nothing but clothing (3 base AR, 0% recovery penalty) than bothering with armor.

 

For example, all Xaurip weapons have a penetration of 5. From what I can tell of the chart above, there's no point in wearing leather or padded against Xaurips; just wear clothing. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[MaxQuest]

This took me a second but then I realized you meant the other lower end! Low DR being high Pen and low pen being high DR etc.

You lost me

 

Just in case: in those charts I have indicated the percentage of damage that goes through.

So if only 25% is going through, this means there was a 75% damage reduction.

 

What exactly is the trigger for the 30% bonus damage?

You take extra 30% of damage if attacker's PEN is x2 or higher than your AR.

In case of the mentioned Geist that would be: if you have 5 or less AR.

 

For example, all Xaurip weapons have a penetration of 5. From what I can tell of the chart above, there's no point in wearing leather or padded against Xaurips; just wear clothing.

Under the current system, you would take:

> 30% of incoming damage, if you have AR of 6 or higher

> 100% of incoming damage, if you have AR equal to: 5, 4 or 3

> 130% of incoming damage, if you have AR equal to 2 or less

Edited November 20, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Nail]

Finally, 30 % of damage only is also for boost the fighter. : p

 

It seem  like Obsidian create Pillars 2 for the Fighter and tanks : p

 

But with this attitude, you punish team glass canon like the one I have on POE1.

 

Except if there a tone of penetration that stack for reach x2 (only +30 % damage boost...), glass canon is actually punish. favor in attack : Average. Favor in defense : Very high. It is a actual game and system design.

 

the system asks us to create a character with average stats and the biggest armor.

 

Combos are limited, since simply to reach 100%, no more, no less (In attack. Give full attack, sufficient) or to be below 100% no more no less (In defense, 30 % sufficient to tank). We turn around the average. 

 

The game does not push to take risks and is very closed. Curious to see the fights against the big bosses ...

I've reached 13 penetration as fighter with warhammer...

[hilfazer]

 

But this is hardly happening, as it adds extra micro. We as players, like a flowing river will always try to find the easiest and fastest way. Usually it's just learning/listing all the AR values and plan the most optimal weapon for every member from the start.

 

 

Your first playthrough won't be spoiled with metaknowledge and you'll be switching weapons.

To know all AR values you need to complete the game at least once. And if you are replaying the game it is a developer's success.

 

BTW: you're too smart for 'most optimal' 

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

What exactly is the trigger for the 30% bonus damage?

You take extra 30% of damage if attacker's PEN is x2 or higher than your AR.

In case of the mentioned Geist that would be: if you have 5 or less AR.

 

For example, all Xaurip weapons have a penetration of 5. From what I can tell of the chart above, there's no point in wearing leather or padded against Xaurips; just wear clothing.

Under the current system, you would take:

> 30% of incoming damage, if you have AR of 6 or higher

> 100% of incoming damage, if you have AR equal to: 5, 4 or 3

> 130% of incoming damage, if you have AR equal to 2 or less

 

 

 

Ok, thanks. 

 

So against Xaurips, yeah, clothing is just as good as padded / leather. Against the Blights (fire, penetration 9) you'll take the 30% bonus damage if you wear padded (3x2 =6) but not if you wear leather (5x2=10). Against the Engwithan Titan,  who I could be wrong but I believe has 10 penetration on his attacks, clothing will get you hit with the 30% bonus damage, as will leather (since it's weak to Crush), but any other armor in the beta from padded on up is equally good because all it does is prevent the 30% malus. 

 

Against the skulking terror you'd need six points of (piercing?) armor rating to avoid the +30% damage malus, so padded and leather are out entirely and you're better off with clothing, not sure without a chart in front of me what other armors would be worthwhile. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[ghostwriter]

Do you think 1 point of difference = 10% damage would work better?

Like pen 5 VS armor 5 = 100% damage.

pen 5 vs armor 4 = 110% damage.

pen 4 vs armor 5 = 90% damage.

And so on?

 

I would say -15% damage per point of penetration below armor level, capped at -75%. No boost for penetration above armour level except for +30% damage if it's double.

 

Of course this is based on nothing other than "it feels right". 

[MaxQuest]

Your first playthrough won't be spoiled with metaknowledge and you'll be switching weapons.

Yeah, usually I try to experience the first playthrough without looking for metaknowledge.

But in case of PoE1 there were a few immersion-breaking things for me, so... I've found pleasure in trying to come up with an OP and time-efficient party)

 

To know all AR values you need to complete the game at least once. And if you are replaying the game it is a developer's success.

It's enough for just one player to post the list ;D

 

BTW: you're too smart for 'most optimal' 

I know it's the incorrect usage as optimal is already superlative.

But just can't think of it as such)

We had a professor that was explaining us the Bisection method, and he was permanently repeating that there is a real solution (like x = 0.245645645645646...) and an optimal solution (when we know the approximate value and the error range is less than a predefined epsilon). And it's optimal because we got the value at a suiting precision, without wasting resources for computation of remaining part that we would round anyway.

So it's kinda sticked from there. Nowadays, calling something optimal I mean that is not farther from ideal by +/- 10%, and most optimal by uhh, let's say +/- 1%

Edited November 20, 2017 by MaxQuest

[theBalthazar]

Go explain this new system to beginners, it will be hard... : p

 

It's not that subtractive, it seems that there should be an armor rack ready to optimize its recovery / protection.

 

Big problem is that in Pillars at first meet : Fortitude : ??? Pierce : ???

 

And personnally in POE1 I have never remembered through and through all the tendance of DR and Défenses for each type of ennemy. In this game : that will be the same.

 

It is problematic because ressources are often limited. So if you enchanting an armor plate, it is difficult to legitimate two armor (max upgrades) by characters.

 

And to conclude, by default, if it is admitted that the strongest enemies will all have strong penetration. Everybody will enchant the biggest armor for the hardiest battles... Hum... Everything will depend on the stats of the strongest enemies.

Edited November 20, 2017 by theBalthazar

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Suspect the phrasing you're looking for is "most optimized." The most optimized solution is the optimal solution; it's not just that optimal is superlative, it's that it's definitionally a unique solution; there can be only one optimal solution to a given problem.