Removing non class specific talents was a bad idea

[kanisatha]

 

A classless system essentially is about giving players the appearance and feeling of being empowered with choices, but where at the end of the day those choices don't have much value because everything ends up being the same.

Perhaps I'm just tired, but aren't there more choices and more possibilities if you're allowed to create the character just the way you feel like as opposed to picking between a few "classes" and rigid talent trees?

Certainly. But the way I see it, choices should be about consequences, and the truest consequences are ones that close off some options because of other options you chose. Being able to take a little of everything may give you the widest range of choices, but if nothing is ever closed off as a result of your choices then the choices are not truly meaningful imho.

[JerekKruger]

Sorry, maybe it wasn't clear that I was just using fighter versus wizard as only an example to make my points. All of this can absolutely apply to some other classes as well, especially the other melee classes such as barbarian and rogue.

 

Sure. I guess to be annoying I'll answer your question with another question: "why should Fighters get the ability to be more skillful at dual wielding when previously (in PoE) it was universal?" You're asking why Fighters are losing something but to me the question is why every other class lost it in the first place.

 

As for why Wizards get to cast spells that Fighters don't: the same reason Fighters get stances, and knockdown and all their other abilities.

[kanisatha]

 

Sorry, maybe it wasn't clear that I was just using fighter versus wizard as only an example to make my points. All of this can absolutely apply to some other classes as well, especially the other melee classes such as barbarian and rogue.

 

Sure. I guess to be annoying I'll answer your question with another question: "why should Fighters get the ability to be more skillful at dual wielding when previously (in PoE) it was universal?" You're asking why Fighters are losing something but to me the question is why every other class lost it in the first place.

 

As for why Wizards get to cast spells that Fighters don't: the same reason Fighters get stances, and knockdown and all their other abilities.

Well, but here you are merely asking me to comment on whether or not PoE1 had everything perfectly right. And of course for me, the answer is definitely not, because I always felt the fighter class got screwed exactly because everything they did other classes could also do, and for the most part about as well. So my unhappiness is exactly because it seemed like finally the fighter class was being given some well-deserved respect in PoE2, but now that maybe going away. And all this comes from the fact that over my almost thirty years of playing D&D-style RPGs the pure fighter is my all-time most favorite class-type of all. I just wish at least one stinking cRPG would give them their due <sigh>.

[JerekKruger]

Well, but here you are merely asking me to comment on whether or not PoE1 had everything perfectly right. And of course for me, the answer is definitely not, because I always felt the fighter class got screwed exactly because everything they did other classes could also do, and for the most part about as well. So my unhappiness is exactly because it seemed like finally the fighter class was being given some well-deserved respect in PoE2, but now that maybe going away. And all this comes from the fact that over my almost thirty years of playing D&D-style RPGs the pure fighter is my all-time most favorite class-type of all. I just wish at least one stinking cRPG would give them their due <sigh>.

 

Well if it's any consolation, I do hope Obsidian do more than simply allow the Fighter to take weapon styles as both proficiencies and passives to make up for this change.

[Breckmoney]

If nothing else this seems like a pretty big buff to the Devoted subclass.

[MortyTheGobbo]

They'd better, otherwise it's not going to work out super well. Fighters are meant to be masters of battlefield control and lock-downs, according to Josh. Passive bonuses to things don't exactly spell that out, even if they were exclusive or semi-exclusive to the class.

[Answermancer]

I'm definitely on the side of the minority in this thread. The complaints about single class talents and especially fighter talents (yes those are "fighter" talents) seem rather over the top. Essentially it boils down to wanting fighter talents to be available to all classes but the talents of other classes to not similarly be available for all classes.

 

Okay I really don't understand why some people are insisting that these are "Fighter" talents. It doesn't boil down to people wanting Fighter talents because they were never fighter talents until someone arbitrarily decided they were!

 

Do I need to scan in the feats from 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition D&D? Because I can.

 

Why are you so hung up on these totally generic talents which represent someone's preferred fighting style, and ignoring actual Fighter defining abilities? Or advocating for Fighters to get much cooler passives and/or actives in their place?

 

If you're so convinced that Fighters need to be masters of all fighting, why not give them 1 passive that gives the effect of all 4? Now that would make a Fighter a master of weapons, able to use any fighting style effectively due to their mastery. But a rogue training with 2 weapons is too much? Or a Paladin with a sword and shield? Or a barbarian with a two-hander? They just have to be rank amateurs? Please.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Answermancer

[kanisatha]

 

I'm definitely on the side of the minority in this thread. The complaints about single class talents and especially fighter talents (yes those are "fighter" talents) seem rather over the top. Essentially it boils down to wanting fighter talents to be available to all classes but the talents of other classes to not similarly be available for all classes.

If you're so convinced that Fighters need to be masters of all fighting, why not give them 1 passive that gives the effect of all 4? Now that would make a Fighter a master of weapons, able to use any fighting style effectively due to their mastery. But a rogue training with 2 weapons is too much? Or a Paladin with a sword and shield? Or a barbarian with a two-hander? They just have to be rank amateurs? Please.

Well firstly, nothing I've said is mutually exclusive with what you're saying. I can get behind what you're saying. But it's your definition of "amateur" that perplexes me. Here's a simple example:

1) Fighters get +5 deflection w/ a sword & shield class talent. Paladins don't get the talent so no bonus.

2) Fighters get +8 deflection w/ a sword & shield class talent. Paladins get a +3 deflection w/ a sword & shield cross-class talent.

 

For you it seems condition 1 above represents the paladin being "untrained" or an "amateur." For me both conditions are exactly the same and I don't see condition 1 representing being an amateur. But if condition 2 makes you feel better about the non-amateur status of paladins, I can live with that.

[Answermancer]

I'm confused where you are getting the +3 disparity?

​I don't have the beta open now but I do happen to have Pillars 1 open with W+S style on Eder and Pallegina and it gives +6 to both there.

 

Now if Obsidian give Fighters "greater weapon style" or something that makes it better then I guess that's one way to go, and at least Paladins would "feel" like they get some training.

 

But I was more saying "fighters get all styles for 1 passive instead of 4, letting them truly be masters of all fighting styles". (Probably too powerful, but could be tweaked so they get 2 of them in one passive or something).

[Lamppost in Winter]

Would it be super unbalanced for Fighters to be able to take the Weapon talents twice, to make up for their "thing" being made available for everybody? 40% speed boost for dual wielding, +12 Deflection with Shields, +30% damage with two-handers, etc. Perhaps if there was a way for the Fighter to take the passive twice, but the second time provides a smaller bonus.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Lamppost in Winter

[Gromnir]

I hope you are all happy now

 

Now everyone can metagame, get a single weapon proficiency for the chosen endgame weapon and fill the rest of the proficiencies with the dire needed passives. Have fun with the power creep...

 

At the same time, you missed the opportunity to campaign for more class related talents rather than a pool of generic talents.

I'm also looking forward to all the complaints about the fighter being a boring / weak choice for (multi)class.

is still beta, but am actual surprised obsidian pulled the trigger so fast.  people cannot know what choices they have in deadfire.  less than a week of gameplay. believe or not, but Gromnir has 54 hours invested in the beta.  no joke.  shoulda' let folks delve a bit more 'cause discovering what they got in deadfire is less obvious than realizing what they lost from poe. am knowing one thing for certain after dozens of hours in the beta: we have only scratched the surface o' deadfire options. rather than give the community a chance to see what can be done with deadfire, obsidian is caving and repeating the same mistake they made in poe: offering universal talents, a handful o' which will be functional compulsory.  worst o' all, the addition o' the talents folks want (not field triage) is not even increasing customization as folks hope. by offering talents/abilities which only a brainless twit would fail to choose, there is no increase in meaningful customization. anybody other than a pure caster is gonna take the weapon focus talents, just as they did in poe. heck, with the way spiritual weapons and former universal weapon spells such as firebrand is current implemented, a few pure casters may feel the need take such talents.

 

is not good design, but maybe the developers think it is good business.

 

HA! Good Fun! 

[kanisatha]

I'm confused where you are getting the +3 disparity?

Those are made-up numbers. I was just using a made-up example to illustrate my point.

 

But, thinking on this further, ultimately it matters not one bit to me what happens in others' games. Only what happens in my own games matters to me. Thus, if in the process of taking what in my opinion are fighter talents and making them available to other classes, they compensate fairly by taking spellcasting abilities and make them available to fighters and other melee classes, that would actually be pretty awesome for me. If the melee classes can also cast some heals, buffs and debuffs, then I won't need to drag along any spellcasters in my party, and that would be ideal. I only love the melee classes and can't stand the stupid weenie spellcasters, but in PoE1 it was just not possible to get through the game without having casters in my party (as the non-hardcore casual gamer that I am). If PoE2 will allow me to run an all-melee party and still beat the game and do most of the side quests and do all of this without having to be a hardcore player, I would be VERY ok with that.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

I'm confused where you are getting the +3 disparity?

Those are made-up numbers. I was just using a made-up example to illustrate my point.

 

But, thinking on this further, ultimately it matters not one bit to me what happens in others' games. Only what happens in my own games matters to me. Thus, if in the process of taking what in my opinion are fighter talents and making them available to other classes, they compensate fairly by taking spellcasting abilities and make them available to fighters and other melee classes, that would actually be pretty awesome for me. If the melee classes can also cast some heals, buffs and debuffs, then I won't need to drag along any spellcasters in my party, and that would be ideal. I only love the melee classes and can't stand the stupid weenie spellcasters, but in PoE1 it was just not possible to get through the game without having casters in my party (as the non-hardcore casual gamer that I am). If PoE2 will allow me to run an all-melee party and still beat the game and do most of the side quests and do all of this without having to be a hardcore player, I would be VERY ok with that.

 

There you go! Yup! Different strokes for different folks. I really hope that you get to create the party you want in Deadfire.

[Answermancer]

 

 

is still beta, but am actual surprised obsidian pulled the trigger so fast.  people cannot know what choices they have in deadfire. 

 

is not good design, but maybe the developers think it is good business.

 

 

It's week one of beta and the game is not out for at least 6 months. Relax, if it sucks they can change it again, plenty of time.

 

A huge part of game design (or any design) is iteration. If they just leave everything the same for the whole length of the beta then it's just a fake "Beta" like AAA studios do these days (which is just an early demo).

 

And I think if it makes people feel more in control of their character's archetypes then it is good design.

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

is still beta, but am actual surprised obsidian pulled the trigger so fast.  people cannot know what choices they have in deadfire. 

 

is not good design, but maybe the developers think it is good business.

 

 

It's week one of beta and the game is not out for at least 6 months. Relax, if it sucks they can change it again, plenty of time.

 

A huge part of game design (or any design) is iteration. If they just leave everything the same for the whole length of the beta then it's just a fake "Beta" like AAA studios do these days (which is just an early demo).

 

And I think if it makes people feel more in control of their character's archetypes then it is good design.

 

game is current scheduled to be released by end of 2018 first quarter... 4 months at most.  could run longer depending on how smooth is the beta, and Gromnir almost invariably guesses longer rather than shorter... which is why we managed to guess closest to actual poe release date in the s'posed official release date thread.

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66536-guess-the-release-date/?p=1470995

 

is too early for us to guess if deadfire is on schedule.  give us a couple build releases and then we will give a serious prediction.  even so, is current an approx 4 month release... which is also why we predicted the deadfire beta would begin late november 2017.  similar window when looking at initial announced late 2014 release date for poe. 4 months.

 

 

*shrug*

 

so, what if obsidian does the obvious and increases all adversary deflection and health to counter the increase in weapon efficacy o' all classes?  from a practical pov, weapon power is currently much more effective than offensive spells.  based on our play o' deadfire, weapon effectiveness clear didn't need a boost from a balancing pov.  so it makes sense to balance new proficiency tiers by increase all enemy resistance to weapons.  end result is players got 0 net gain in power, and by needing utilize the tiered weapon proficiency talents to keep pace with stronger foes, players would actual lose customization opportunities by functional giving up a broader range o' weapon proficiencies. feels or not, players would actual have less customization options.  sure, most folks wouldn't realize they had been duped, but options would actual be reduced.

 

am all for making changes during the beta, but less than one week? am also a bit less enthusiastic 'bout obsidian response to fan feedback during the beta than most.

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/71242-interview-with-josh-sawyer-tomorrow-thursday-the-19th-at-8-pm-est-on-my-twitch-channel/?p=1589870

 

am thinking obsidian gots great feedback during the years after the release o' poe, but the poe beta feedback, when looked at with the benefit o' hindsight, were a mess, and as often as not led to the diminution o' the game.

 

so less than a week passes and instead o' the broad universal options people claimed they were wanting, obsidian struck at the heart o' the matter (as Gromnir insinuated earlier) and is providing a functional boost to the potential weapon powha of all classes... and the people rejoiced, not realizing that their approval were little more than a tacit admission o' their desire for a handful o' specific poe power talents from the very start.

 

huzzah.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited November 22, 2017 by Gromnir

[anfoglia]

 

 

  people cannot know what choices they have in deadfire.  less than a week of gameplay.

 

I agree with this much. I don't have a problem with Obsidian announcing what they're thinking for the next update. Nor do I in particular object to their proposal (as I share some of the concern about universal talents). But it is true that the meta needs time to breath and to absorb changes to other systems. I wonder if the current class trees/weapon profs. would have felt better with the revised PEN numbers and a few new or buffed class abilities. Granted, balance changes wouldn't help people who want certain talents to be part of their single-class concept for aesthetic reasons. And another month wasn't going to persuade anyone with that sort of objection.

[spartacus]

 

 

 

 

is still beta, but am actual surprised obsidian pulled the trigger so fast.  people cannot know what choices they have in deadfire. 

 

is not good design, but maybe the developers think it is good business.

 

 

It's week one of beta and the game is not out for at least 6 months. Relax, if it sucks they can change it again, plenty of time.

 

A huge part of game design (or any design) is iteration. If they just leave everything the same for the whole length of the beta then it's just a fake "Beta" like AAA studios do these days (which is just an early demo).

 

And I think if it makes people feel more in control of their character's archetypes then it is good design.

 

game is current scheduled to be released by end of 2018 first quarter... 4 months at most.  could run longer depending on how smooth is the beta, and Gromnir almost invariably guesses longer rather than shorter... which is why we managed to guess closest to actual poe release date in the s'posed official release date thread.

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66536-guess-the-release-date/?p=1470995

 

is too early for us to guess if deadfire is on schedule.  give us a couple build releases and then we will give a serious prediction.  even so, is current an approx 4 month release... which is also why we predicted the deadfire beta would begin late november 2017.  similar window when looking at initial announced late 2014 release date for poe. 4 months.

 

 

*shrug*

 

so, what if obsidian does the obvious and increases all adversary deflection and health to counter the increase in weapon efficacy o' all classes?  from a practical pov, weapon power is currently much more effective than offensive spells.  based on our play o' deadfire, weapon effectiveness clear didn't need a boost from a balancing pov.  so it makes sense to balance new proficiency tiers by increase all enemy resistance to weapons.  end result is players got 0 net gain in power, and by needing utilize the tiered weapon proficiency talents to keep pace with stronger foes, players would actual lose customization opportunities by functional giving up a broader range o' weapon proficiencies. feels or not, players would actual have less customization options.  sure, most folks wouldn't realize they had been duped, but options would actual be reduced.

 

am all for making changes during the beta, but less than one week? am also a bit less enthusiastic 'bout obsidian response to fan feedback during the beta than most.

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/71242-interview-with-josh-sawyer-tomorrow-thursday-the-19th-at-8-pm-est-on-my-twitch-channel/?p=1589870

 

am thinking obsidian gots great feedback during the years after the release o' poe, but the poe beta feedback, when looked at with the benefit o' hindsight, were a mess, and as often as not led to the diminution o' the game.

 

so less than a week passes and instead o' the broad universal options people claimed they were wanting, obsidian struck at the heart o' the matter (as Gromnir insinuated earlier) and is providing a functional boost to the potential weapon powha of all classes... and the people rejoiced, not realizing that their approval were little more than a tacit admission o' their desire for a handful o' specific poe power talents from the very start.

 

huzzah.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I love everything about this post. Kinda bummed that things seem to have worked out this way. I don't foresee this helping with the issue of single class characters not having enough options, but will instead just make a weapon style or weapon focus mandatory for every class to take :/

 

That being said, I still have faith in the designers, and I don't think this will make or break the game, just change the flavor a bit.

[Boeroer]

Hm, if passive talent + passive abilities of fighter stack that would solve the problem that the fighter feels stripped now. Maybe too powerful? What about making them a little distinct then?

 

The talent could be Weapon & Shield Style (+x deflection and reflex) while the fighter's ability would grant something else that is a nice addition to that, like additional graze to miss conversion when using a shield. Same with two handed (hit to crit for example or more PEN) and so on.

 

By the way: does Bill's Will/Bear's Fort and so on from different classes (when multiclassing) stack?

Edited November 22, 2017 by Boeroer

[Lamppost in Winter]

Hm, if passive talent + passive abilities of fighter stack that would solve the problem that the fighter feels stripped now. Maybe too powerful? What about making them a little distinct then?

 

The talent could be Weapon & Shield Style (+x deflection and reflex) while the fighter's ability would grant something else that is a nice addition to that, like additional graze to miss conversion when using a shield. Same with two handed (hit to crit for example or more PEN) and so on.

 

By the way: does Bill's Will/Bear's Fort and so on from different classes (when multiclassing) stack?

 

 Rolled up a quick Ascetic and apparently, yes it does.

 

 

As for the proposed solution, I'm a bit ambivalent. Seems like a band-aid for lack of class passives. I could go either way on the weapon styles. The generic defense talents I feel definitely should be generic, though perhaps leaving in the "Resistance to X Affliction" in the classes wouldn't be a bad idea. 

 

Mainly, I'd just like to see more Utility stuff.

 

The idea seems to be "you can purchase this as a class passive OR as a Talent", so I doubt you could purchase them twice. 

Edited November 22, 2017 by Lamppost in Winter

[Answermancer]

Hm, if passive talent + passive abilities of fighter stack that would solve the problem that the fighter feels stripped now. Maybe too powerful? What about making them a little distinct then?

 

The talent could be Weapon & Shield Style (+x deflection and reflex) while the fighter's ability would grant something else that is a nice addition to that, like additional graze to miss conversion when using a shield. Same with two handed (hit to crit for example or more PEN) and so on.

 

By the way: does Bill's Will/Bear's Fort and so on from different classes (when multiclassing) stack?

 

I had assumed that they would come up with some new passives for Fighters, if not, they should, they have time.

 

They could put something more interesting there easily.

[KDubya]

Maybe Fighters will get something but history shows Fighters generally taking it in the ass. The early versions in PoE of Fighters were good but the Defender update put a fork in them. This version of Fighter looked promising at giving them a distinct advantage compared to the other martial classes but that looks to be blurring. 

 

Is Barbarian's weapon specialization being given to everyone as well? If so that'll be a must pick like it was in PoE.

[Boeroer]

Yes, that was my thought as well. Invent some passive bonuses that are easy to implement and add up nicely to the corresponding "talent", but can also stand on their own. That would make fighter truly the master of weaponry while giving the other classes access to some basics. Just to express that they are "proficient" with that style of fighting. Fighter would still be better then and everybody might be happy because there's more choice to single class chars while nothing was taken away from the fighter (or barb or whomever).

 

That's a good opportunity to alter the Single Weapon Style ability of fighter by the way. At the moment it's underwhelming for a fighter who can already get high accuracy and can have auto graze capability. Here a hit to crit conversion like in PoE for example would make more sense I think (didn't do any math though nor did I playtest this - just gut feeling - so it may be wrong). At the same time a single weapon style proficiency that lets you turn some misses to grazes with a single weapon that you are proficient with should be pretty nice for not-so-accurate weapon users.

 

Crits are more powerful than in PoE now because they also raise PEN which can lead to the 0.3 damage multiplier when "overpenetrating". This could make fighter's own single weapons style more appealing as it was in PoE1.

 

Maybe at the same time nerf the upgraded Barrage conversion a bit because that seems to be awfully strong atm (50% hit to crit, phew). Somebody already combined that with a Berserker and got 100% conversion when frenzied. Maybe a little over the top.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Boeroer

[CottonWolf]

 

Rolled up a quick Ascetic and apparently, yes it does.

 

As for the proposed solution, I'm a bit ambivalent. Seems like a band-aid for lack of class passives. I could go either way on the weapon styles. The generic defense talents I feel definitely should be generic, though perhaps leaving in the "Resistance to X Affliction" in the classes wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

Yeah, the Resistance to X Affliction skills sound like they're too good to be general.

[Boeroer]

I would def. leave the resistance talents in the classes. Bull's Will and friends are no resistances but only raise the defense by 10. Resistances automatically lower all fitting afflictions by one tier (dominate to charm to confused to nothig). A paladin with resistance to intellect afflictions, multiclassed with a Berserker means that the character is not confused while frenzied anymore. Bull's Will can't do such things. But those add up pretty nicely I guess. So, the more powerful resistances should be class specific. It's ok for me if Bull's Will and so on will become talents. But does that mean that a druid/monk can pick Bull's Will three times?

Edited November 22, 2017 by Boeroer

[JerekKruger]

Yes, that was my thought as well. Invent some passive bonuses that are easy to implement and add up nicely to the corresponding "talent", but can also stand on their own.

 

Something like Weapon and Shield Mastery? Sounds good to me. I assume Fighter's old Weapon Specialization and Weapon Mastery talents will remain unique to them so I can't see any reason why they shouldn't get similar abilities for weapon styles as well.

 

I would def. leave the resistance talents in the classes. Bull's Will and friends are no resistances but only raise the defense by 10. Resistances automatically lower all fitting afflictions by one tier (dominate to charm to confused to nothig). A paladin with resistance to intellect afflictions, multiclassed with a Berserker means that the character is not confused while frenzied anymore. Bull's Will can't do such things. But those add up pretty nicely I guess. So, the more powerful resistances should be class specific. It's ok for me if Bull's Will and so on will become talents. But does that mean that a druid/monk can pick Bull's Will three times?

 

Agreed, the resistance to affliction talents are, in my opinion, very powerful so probably shouldn't be universal, the bonus defence talents are much less so. I think (hope) that Bull's Will stacking with itself is a bug and that it will change so that you can only benefit from it (and pick it) once.