Walking Part 2

[Lord_Mord]

 

Unless it was a walking simulator then you should have started from implementing and developing core game mechanics which would make the base for the rest of the experience ;-P

 

Actually it kinda was. It was an experimental stop motion game. We had great expectations, but it was really hard to just get our main character to walk. In the end all we had was a small level, a guy walking around and some awesome interactions with a real rabbit skull, a puppet cupboard (with a little man inside) and a creepy girl in the woods that did a kind of experssionistic dance. Unfortunately we never got to the point where it all started to make sense. Wait ... I just remembered, that the opening sequence is on vimeo:

 

 

And two pictures:

 

 

 

Edit: He had this cool idle animation, where he stepped nervously from one leg to another. I think that kind of stuff is important. It gives characters life. Just think of Eder and his smoking animation.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Lord_Mord

[Karkarov]

How many people had activated BHM for the whole game because they wanted to laugh all the way through the hours and days of playing, and how many switched it on, had a good laugh, and switched it off again?

Also again there is the gameplay use, sometimes combat gets really hectic, and as stupid as it sounds you can use big head mode to get a better view of who is where in some chaotic fights.  I know this because I have done it before.

[Varana]

Well, I can think of a few very specialised gameplay uses for walking, as well - like more precision when positioning your party just beyond the edges of an enemy's visibility range, or when circumnavigating complex trap layouts in a tight corridor: you've got better chances to quickly hit the pause button before the character does something stupid.

[Baltic]

Well, I can think of a few very specialised gameplay uses for walking, as well - like more precision when positioning your party just beyond the edges of an enemy's visibility range, or when circumnavigating complex trap layouts in a tight corridor: you've got better chances to quickly hit the pause button before the character does something stupid.

Whilst I'm in favour of a walking toggle, scouting mode is what you'd use in these cases. It would be practically essential in the case of staying out of an enemy's visibility range.

[oddrheia]

So,  Divinity Original Sin 2 was properly released yesterday, and the party there can walk as well as run (and sneak, of course).

 

Just wanted to point out there is another  development studio out  there (that makes amazing RPGs, btw) who do not consider the feature low priority or a waste of resources.

 

Now, if you excuse me, I am going to go and get myself thoroughly lost in the world of Rivellon!

Edited September 15, 2017 by oddrheia

[daven]

So,  Divinity Original Sin 2 was properly released yesterday, and the party there can walk as well as run (and sneak, of course).

 

Just wanted to point out there is another  development studio out  there (that makes amazing RPGs, btw) who do not consider the feature low priority or a waste of resources.

 

Now, if you excuse me, I am going to go and get myself thoroughly lost in the world of Rivellon!

You've pushed me one step closer to purchasing it!

 

I haven't played the first but this looks pretty good, not sure if it's worth waiting a few weeks for the obligatory patch.

[Wormerine]

So,  Divinity Original Sin 2 was properly released yesterday, and the party there can walk as well as run (and sneak, of course).

 

Just wanted to point out there is another  development studio out  there (that makes amazing RPGs, btw) who do not consider the feature low priority or a waste of resources.

 

Now, if you excuse me, I am going to go and get myself thoroughly lost in the world of Rivellon!

Cool. Have fun.

[anameforobsidian]

If big head mode is in, this should be.

 

I imagine less people will have used big head mode. What absolutele nonsense including that bollocks.

 

Big head mode is something they stumbled on by accident when testing character models.  Keep in mind I tepidly support both, but it's not like they put a ton of extra work in to put it in.

[Guest 4ward]

 

Well, I can think of a few very specialised gameplay uses for walking, as well - like more precision when positioning your party just beyond the edges of an enemy's visibility range, or when circumnavigating complex trap layouts in a tight corridor: you've got better chances to quickly hit the pause button before the character does something stupid.

Whilst I'm in favour of a walking toggle, scouting mode is what you'd use in these cases. It would be practically essential in the case of staying out of an enemy's visibility range.

 

 

 

that‘s a good point which kind of makes me curious why Obsidian decided to go with a running speed and a sneaking speed and abandoned walking speed. Couldn‘t Obsidian have left walking as in BG2 as default and then when the player goes into stealth mode just added the sneaking animation but left the walking speed? So that the player has the same default speed no matter if he walkes or is in stealth like it was in BG2? And then added running as a special talent tied to endurance?

[Osvir]

Sneaking = Stealth
Walking = Default
Sprinting = Per Encounter Use

Would've been my preference, but too late now.

Sprinting "Per Encounter" to position, or get a decreased chance of getting hit by an AoO (Attack of Opportunity).

Some form of walking toggle would be nice now that running/jogging has been already established

[Messier-31]

This.

 

Dr Lephystone, I presume.

[Lephys]

*adjusts spectacles... opens clipboard pad to fresh sheet of paper*

 

*clicky* ... Why don't you just relax and tell me why you think you feel the need to run everywhere, and when this all started. Your childhood, perhaps?

[Wormerine]

*adjusts spectacles... opens clipboard pad to fresh sheet of paper*

 

*clicky* ... Why don't you just relax and tell me why you think you feel the need to run everywhere, and when this all started. Your childhood, perhaps?

Well Doctor... I suppose I want my character to be what I can't be in real life. He gets all the attractive women. He is an asset to the comunity. He is important and respected. He fights injustice and evil when he sees it. He is also more... well... fit. You see I am always late. And it is not because of poor planning... there just aren't enough hours in a day. Now, if I could only move faster. Sadly with a backpack and violin in hand I can't run very far. So after leaving work I am late for a bus I could have caught. I could sleep in on weekends if I could do my errands quicker. So when I am gaming I want my character to run. Always. Not because he has to. But because he can.

[Lephys]

Interesting, interesting... *places butt-end of pen against lips in deep thought*.

 

I too have such desires. But I have naught the time for running, you see. It's so... primitive. I wish for my character to simply teleport instantly to any place on the map I'd like. And I also wish for a "reveal entire map and slay all creatures" button, so that I'm not bothered with time-consuming exploration at a finite speed like I would be in real life.

 

If Run_Speed < infinity

       ++Run_Speed;

 

Am I right?

[Wormerine]

Interesting, interesting... *places butt-end of pen against lips in deep thought*.

 

I too have such desires. But I have naught the time for running, you see. It's so... primitive. I wish for my character to simply teleport instantly to any place on the map I'd like. And I also wish for a "reveal entire map and slay all creatures" button, so that I'm not bothered with time-consuming exploration at a finite speed like I would be in real life.

 

If Run_Speed < infinity

       ++Run_Speed;

 

Am I right?

Yes, Doctor! Yes, Yes, YESSSSSSS!!!!

 

But wait.... now I want to be able to teleport everywhere in Deadfire. What have you done? YOU CHARLATAIN! YOU MADE THINGS WORSE!!!

[Messier-31]

Well, that escalated quickly.

 

For the record, me saying "Dr Lephystone, I presume" was not implying that Lephys is a walk-doctor. It was a reference to the famous greeting of Henry Morton Stanley upon locating David Livingstone in Africa. Dude's been missing for a long time.

[Hertzila]

I'll just repeat what I said last time: I'm not opposed to a mechanics-neutral walk toggle, be that a "walk/run everywhere" button or a Divinity: Original Sin 2 style "walk short distances" toggle in the Gameplay menu (or somewhere). I'll most likely never touch that (in favour of running everywhere) but some people seem to really like the option and it seems harmless and easy enough, so why not.

 

However, the moment you start introducing mechanical differences to it is the moment I vote against it. Introducing something like fatigue penalties for running too much or trap-spotting penalties or, Magran forbid, guards getting pissy and bothering you for running everywhere is not something I want to deal with. Sure, it might look weird, but so do a lot of things when you start looking for it. Why should a player be forced to move slower than they can if they are just moving somewhere?

[Lephys]

Ahhhh. I did not catch that reference. My apologies. .

 

I have been missing for a while... haha. Not in the wilds of Africa, though.

[FlintlockJazz]

Well, that escalated quickly.

 

For the record, me saying "Dr Lephystone, I presume" was not implying that Lephys is a walk-doctor. It was a reference to the famous greeting of Henry Morton Stanley upon locating David Livingstone in Africa. Dude's been missing for a long time.

Yeah, that's what I thought you were referencing, and have no idea wtf they were doing...   Crazy punks.

[Wormerine]

 

Well, that escalated quickly.

 

For the record, me saying "Dr Lephystone, I presume" was not implying that Lephys is a walk-doctor. It was a reference to the famous greeting of Henry Morton Stanley upon locating David Livingstone in Africa. Dude's been missing for a long time.

 

Yeah, that's what I thought you were referencing, and have no idea wtf they were doing... Crazy punks.

Improv... I don't think I am a very good comedian.

 

https://youtu.be/huJ81Mq2y34

Edited September 20, 2017 by Wormerine

[Lephys]

However, the moment you start introducing mechanical differences to it is the moment I vote against it. Introducing something like fatigue penalties for running too much or trap-spotting penalties or, Magran forbid, guards getting pissy and bothering you for running everywhere is not something I want to deal with. Sure, it might look weird, but so do a lot of things when you start looking for it. Why should a player be forced to move slower than they can if they are just moving somewhere?

 

That's all just superficial stuff, though. Simulation for simulation's sake is silly. For what it's worth, I tend to favor the "everyone moves at the same speed until combat is entered" notion for party movement, as it's almost pointless for different characters to suffer different movement speeds in general travel. And I agree that having guards or people get mad and actually detriment you for trying to sprint all over the place is a bit pointless. The cons outweigh the pros. It's kind of like the weapons-sheathed thing. "Oh, hey, you can't have your weapons out in-town!". I get that it simulates a real reaction, but to what end? Now, if your party had to PEACE-TIE their weapons upon entering town... that would be a significant difference. Maybe with a good enough Sleight-of-Hand (or something similar) check, you could make the guards THINK your weapons were peace-tied, but when you got into trouble in town with ruffians who obviously wouldn't obey the law, you could draw them quickly. Otherwise, getting into trouble in a city/town would require time for your characters to cut the peace ties/untie them. Etc.

 

Anywho, the point is, if it's not accomplishing something gameplay-wise or affecting the player's decision-making in an interesting way, it's not worth putting in. That's why I wouldn't be happy with just a walk-toggle slapped into the game. I mean, I guess that'd be 3% better than just-running everywhere, but it wouldn't provide much benefit for its own sake. I want there to be mechanical differences, but not just superficial stuff. Honestly, I think there should be a RUN-toggle, and running would use stamina. You can say that's a punishment, but it's no more a punishment than a limit on anything else in the game. Finite health isn't a punishment. Non-instant casting times aren't a punishment. So, basically, I'd be fine with your being ABLE to sprint all over the place, with very little down-time, but you'd make a lot more noise and draw a lot more attention to yourself. Not to mention that the sheer speed with which you move would make it much more likely for you to sprint straight into a dangerous situation. That's not even the game punishing anyone, that's just a natural consequence of moving faster. Not only are you not going to sneak up on anyone, but you're going to have nearby groups of bandits go "Hey, what's that? Sounds like people overtly clomping down the path nearby! Let's set up an ambush!". Of course, not every foe would react the same way, so it's not just a blanket "everything ambushes you" consequence.

 

But, yeah, the reason you should want to move more slowly than you can is because there are actual reasons to do that. If there's no reason to ever move more slowly than you can, then there's never any reason to even have options. That's like asking "Why should you ever use a less-powerful ability than your most powerful ability?" Because it's limited, and you should probably use it when you need it, and don't use it when you don't. It's up to you, though. You can use it all the time if you want (as much as possible), then be without something when you need it (in the case of running, you'll be without stamina in this example). It's a trade-off, and not just one for its own sake. It's there to make your choices significant. If you had infinite powerful spells, then what would be the point in any other options? That's like having a puzzle in which doing ANYthing is the solution. It defeats the point of the puzzle.

 

I mean, if you want a game in which nothing has to be managed or considered, that's not inherently a bad game. It could be enjoyable to some. But, in its own context, the game has reasons to limit certain things, and require consideration and management of these finite resources. Again, limits and resource management for their own sake do nothing for such a game. i.e. "survival" mechanics, in which you must have food and water, etc., simply to avoid penalties or death. If your only choice is between death or a chore, then there's no point. However, in that example, if different kinds of food and water could affect the rest of the gameplay, and there were more robust choices within that survival mechanic, then it could be pretty cool.

[Wormerine]

I agree completely. The problem is the system you are talking about already exists. Except instead of walking there is sneaking. You move slower but are in the "sneak" mode. As PoE had a noise simulation I imagine running is noisy and if you run in hostile situation you can attract enemies. We know for sure that spells make various amount of noise, meaning if you are sneaking through a castle and attract a guard and you decide to dispatch him with a fireball you might attract nearby patrols.

 

What people are asking is literally a fluff option to walk for immersion sake for role playing purposes.

[Lephys]

Ehh... it exists, but sneaking is not the same thing as normal walking (and not just "RP" walking). That's like saying, in a driving game, that a lower gear is already provided for you. You can just drive around in reverse if you don't want to drive around in 5th gear all the time! But that obviously isn't the same thing. No one wants to creep around sneakily everywhere they go. But they also don't want to power-sprint every second of every day like it's just normal.

 

If this weren't the type of RPG it is, I'd say don't even worry about it. And I know many are asking for the fluff toggle, but on-topic I'm asking for it to be slightly more substantial. Walking does not equal super-slow-speed. It's just slow-ER than running. And running/sprinting is a distinct thing from just getting around. There are essentially 3 intuitive speeds with which we move around:

 

1) at our normal pace.

2) in a hurry

3) cautiously

 

So, it makes sense for walk to be the default, then run/sprint to be used when you need more speed and care less about noise/caution, and sneak to be used when you care much more about caution than speed.

 

The fact that 2 different movement speeds already exist in the game is, in some ways, MORE reason to go ahead and put all 3 in. No one's asking for 17 movement speeds or anything. Being able to run as opposed to walking, and having it matter, would be useful and would serve a purpose, rather than just being something nice to have because roleplaying.

 

 

EDIT: I had to change "slowe-ER" to "slow-ER"... it was bugging me furiously.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Lephys

[Wormerine]

Ehh... it exists, but sneaking is not the same thing as normal walking (and not just "RP" walking). That's like saying, in a driving game, that a lower gear is already provided for you. You can just drive around in reverse if you don't want to drive around in 5th gear all the time! But that obviously isn't the same thing. No one wants to creep around sneakily everywhere they go. But they also don't want to power-sprint every second of every day like it's just normal.

 

If this weren't the type of RPG it is, I'd say don't even worry about it. And I know many are asking for the fluff toggle, but on-topic I'm asking for it to be slightly more substantial. Walking does not equal super-slow-speed. It's just slowe-ER than running. And running/sprinting is a distinct thing from just getting around. There are essentially 3 intuitive speeds with which we move around:

 

1) at our normal pace.

2) in a hurry

3) cautiously

 

So, it makes sense for walk to be the default, then run/sprint to be used when you need more speed and care less about noise/caution, and sneak to be used when you care much more about caution than speed.

 

The fact that 2 different movement speeds already exist in the game is, in some ways, MORE reason to go ahead and put all 3 in. No one's asking for 17 movement speeds or anything. Being able to run as opposed to walking, and having it matter, would be useful and would serve a purpose, rather than just being something nice to have because roleplaying.

As a big fan of stealth genre I can see benefits of multi-layered walking speed.

[ShadySands]

Walking is in