Sleep scumming.

[kensu]

It seems that the developers of both Pillars of Eternity and Tides of Numenera have got a real bug up their ass about people "abusing rest".

Personally this has never bothered me, and frankly I'm not sure if it happens because of lack of foresight on the player's part, or poor game design. (I suspect the latter, because I had to do it in Icewind Dale, and I planned all of my battles ahead of time like General MacArthur in that game).

 

So I'll accept that they're going to continue making it difficult for players to do this, but frankly I'm rather dismayed at the dull way they've chosen to do it. ToN only allows you to sleep in certain locations, and then for a price (bastards). PoE requires you to carry around firewood (I guess they didn't get the memo from the forestry service about only using local firewood to prevent giving destructive insect colonies a vector into other forests), and naturally this is the one item you can't keep in the stash, and it has an arbitrary limit.

 

So here is what I suggest they do instead. Allow the player to sleep anywhere, but add realistic penalties for doing so.

For instance...

- Do not allow them to fall asleep until fatigue is over a certain level. Otherwise they just toss and turn and their fatigue continues to build at a slower rate. (they did this back in Ultima V, 30 years ago!)

- Have you ever heard of Exploding Head Syndrome? This is what happens when you fall asleep when you're in a state of anxiety. If you try to sleep in a forgotten corner of the evil overlord's sentinel, you could suffer a minor (but temporary) reduction in mental facilities and alacrity.

- If the player sleeps more than a given percentage of a day (for instance if they deplete their fatigue intentionally using booze or something so they can sleep again), they'll end up getting infected bedsores, which they'll need a doctor to treat.

- In addition oversleep will lead to grogginess, where mental and agility scores take a hit.

 

In general I prefer an approach where the designer doesn't say: "you can't do this", but instead says: "you can do this, but there's a cost."

 

 

 

[tinysalamander]

So, you (as it seems) don’t rest spam which means you won’t be affected by penalties that you propose. Therefore you gain nothing while others, who need it for some reason, suffer more. What’s the point?

[Tigranes]

Personally, I wouldn't mind that - but you will find a million exploding heads on the forums about people who complain how the game "forces them to wait 10 minutes" so that they can rest, or how the game "forces them to go back to a doctor to treat explosive bedsores every 30 minutes". I think it would satisfy you, but it would piss off other people - and really, I feel like no matter what they do a sizable minority will be unhappy.

 

Resting excessively was always a crutch pseudo-exploit players used to get ahead when they weren't good enough to play on otherwise. That's no skin off their back, nobody needs to be hardcore supergood. The consequence, though, is that people now expect to be able to magically heal everybody instantly after every single battle if they should so choose, and feel it is bad design if they can't. *shrug*

Edited March 20, 2017 by Tigranes

[MountainTiger]

Aren't ToN's paid resting locations and quest expiration while sleeping exactly "you can do this, but there's a cost"? For that matter, isn't the same true of camping supplies?

 

I though Tides of Numenera handled resting really well, actually: you shouldn't be able to just lay down in the middle of town and have a snooze anywhere you please, and quest advancement when resting both increases immersion IMO and puts a more interesting mechanical restriction on rests than requiring a bit of money or an item.

[kensu]

Where do you get the impression that I'm in favor of limiting resting? What I said was that the devs are dead-set against it, and what I'm suggesting here is to mitigate their draconian approach. Although my approach has its drawbacks, certainly it's preferable to the way it is in PoE or ToN where you simply can't rest whenever you want.

[Sedrefilos]

Resting is an outdated mechanic in such games imo. Dragon Age Origins did the right thing: you either survive the encounter or not. And if you do, those that fell during it suffer from injuries. That said, I believe Pillars did a nice job with it. Thematically and strategically right.

 

Resting is more imortant in pure tactical games. Like Darkest Dungeon for example.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Sedrefilos

[Katarack21]

Rest spam is, in my mind, just another playstyle. And I don't give two ****s how *anybody* chooses to play the game.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

So you want to remove a hard limit(camping supplies and inns) and replace it with a series of complicated mechanics? I don't see the point, especially with all abilities being per encounter and the implementation of a new health system based on surviving particular encounters.

Resting is an outdated mechanic in such games imo. Dragon Age Origins did the right thing: you either survive the encounter or not. And if you do, those that fell during it suffer from injuries.

I disagree, it's a good idea but the sheer amount of trashmobs ****ed it up. Hopefully PoE2 has significantly less trashmobs though.

[Gfted1]

Ive rested 2-3 times just clearing the basement of rats. Who cares? The internet.

 

Regenerating Health and a portable portal and Im a happy camper. Also, iirc, a "no camping supply limit" mod is usually one of the first to be made too.

[tinysalamander]

Where do you get the impression that I'm in favor of limiting resting? What I said was that the devs are dead-set against it, and what I'm suggesting here is to mitigate their draconian approach. Although my approach has its drawbacks, certainly it's preferable to the way it is in PoE or ToN where you simply can't rest whenever you want.

 

In the old system I can rest without problems as long as I have some resources. In the proposed system even if I rest there is going to be a problem. Too much hassle for no real gain, IMO.

[Katarack21]

I am one of those people who rest-spammed my way through BG and BG2, and was under the impression that it was how you were supposed to play those games.

It....it just made *sense*.

[eselle28]

I guess I saw the firewood as a "you can make this choice, but there's going to be a cost" mechanic. In POE's case, the cost was a couple of minutes spent in load screens to go back to an inn or find some firewood. Personally, I'd rather have that cost than a debuff. Tastes may vary, of course.

 

I don't have a problem with unlimited resting, either, at least not in this style of a game. Achievements can be available for those who want to be encouraged not to rest much. For that matter, I have no problem scrapping rest altogether.

[rjshae]

The BG1/2 rest mechanic is a total kludge anyway. Realistically, you'd need several weeks to rest up following a brutal combat, and you'd want to do that somewhere reasonably safe. The camping supplies represent a reasonable compromise for what's essentially a logistical issue. Games are about dealing with challenges. Deal with it, I say.

[Tigranes]

Games aren't made to let you do literally whatever you want. Maybe that would be nice, but that's not how games work - not video games, not sports, not chess, not even pen and paper, CYOA or two children playing make-believe. There's always a set of rules, hard or soft, that govern what you can and can't do. Why? Because as long as you are playing with someone else, or someone else is designing content for you, those shared rules are the ground upon which you can have meaningful challenges and fun encounters. Maybe you and your mates make up a rule where someone can pick up the ball with their hands in football, or your DM lets you be a Dragonborn Bard-Monk, or you mod the game so you have infinite uses of Quivering Palm. There's nothing wrong with that, that's fine! But the actual game developer making a game for a million people can't and shouldn't cater to every person, and so they have to make some decisions about what they are going to allow and restrict,and use that to design challenges that they believe are the most fun. 

 

So. "I think resting limits should be banished from the Earth because of X Y Z"? Legitimate argument. "I think POE as a game would be perfectly fine with infinite resting because of X Y Z, so there should be an option"? Also legitimate. "Make your game to let people do whatever they want and anybody arguing against this total freedom is just interfering"? Doesn't make practical sense, and is yelling at strawmen.

 

---

 

In terms of legitimate arguments then, I'm not actually married to camping supplies. I think they can be pretty clumsy, and they do offend people who are coming off IE games. I do think, however, that it's important for the game to say "hey, you're in a dungeon, not some magical fake arena where after every fight you are instantly healed so you never have to worry about attrition and it's like each fight happens in a separate universe." While resting limitations of any kind will annoy some people some of the time, I appreciate their added value, which is that you get an additional layer of tactical decisions and resource management, and they help me get less tired of combat because even smaller trash mobs becoming meaningful, instead of "haha i feel so good i blast these guys in 0.5 seconds". 

 

And no, don't tell me I could just stop myself from resting - of course, but that's the same as me telling you, "thou must not argue, if you really want there's a very simple cheat in POE that lets you rest". I'm not telling you how to play the game, I couldn't care less. I'm arguing for what I think would make a good game, because that's the kind of game I want to buy. I respect that you will do the same. And when the game comes out, if it doesn't have resting limits, I'll either deal with it (by, say, putting in house rules), or I'll play a different game.

[Katarack21]

You see added value. I don't; I see only "added annoyance". Complaining about rest limitations isn't bitching about lack of total freedom; that's the archetypal strawman. I'm complaining about a specific limitation that has specific consequences which I specifically dislike.

I don't need to be able to do *anything* I want. I don't want to serial murder prostitutes in PoE, that's what GTA is for. I don't want to set people on fire and piss on their bodies, that's what Postal is for. I don't want to hack computers and fight corporations, that's what Shadowrun is for.

I just don't want to have to **** around with rest mechanics. Very specific.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Katarack21

[MountainTiger]

The BG1/2 rest mechanic is a total kludge anyway. Realistically, you'd need several weeks to rest up following a brutal combat, and you'd want to do that somewhere reasonably safe.

 

This is how the BGs work, though: the natural recovery rate of a character without superhuman constitution is minimal. It just happens that the setting has lots of readily available magical healing, so 1-2 rests worth of spells will fix whatever ails you (up to and including death once you unlock those spells).

[kensu]

What really bothers me is that the devs were so gung ho about "fixing" this, I remember when I read about it in the dev notes, it was like I was on another planet or something.

When they're changing fundamental game mechanics AFTER the game has been released, perhaps they shouldn't be prioritizing "fixing" a gameplay pattern they don't agree with.

They can't be bothered to add ammunition to the game, but you can't rest without firewood?

 

What are they going to do next, restrict the places you can save and the number of times you can save to prevent Save Scumming?

[Katarack21]

The lack of ammunition is an anti-frustration feature; not a "can't be bothered" deal. Thing is, to me rest-anywhere-at-any-time is *ALSO* an anti-frustration feature, so I'm a little confused myself.

[rjshae]

The lack of ammunition is an anti-frustration feature; not a "can't be bothered" deal. Thing is, to me rest-anywhere-at-any-time is *ALSO* an anti-frustration feature, so I'm a little confused myself.

 

The difference in these features is between the tactical (constantly pausing to swap arrows during combat) and the strategic (deciding whether to avoid some encounters in order to conserve camping supplies). I think the developers want low level combat to flow smoothly where possible, but throw in some logistical friction in order to provide planning challenges. But seriously, how big a challenge are camping supplies at the normal setting? I rarely found myself in situations where I needed to restock without actually traveling back to base anyway. The system worked fine for me, so I don't have much sympathy for the issue.

[hilfazer]

Time limited critical path. No workarounds. Problem solved.

[eselle28]

Time limited critical path. No workarounds. Problem solved.

 

That's a fine enough idea...for a game someone other than me can play. More generally, I can't see that going over all that well with the audience for Deadfire.

Edited March 20, 2017 by eselle28

[MountainTiger]

No need to time limit the entire critical path, just a key quest now and then

[Messier-31]

Sleep scumming is the new save scumming?

[Katarack21]

I straight won't play time-limited games or quests with time-limits. I have really sever anxiety and time-limited quests and **** give me panic attacks. So for me, that's *right* out.

[Tigranes]

You see added value. I don't; I see only "added annoyance". Complaining about rest limitations isn't bitching about lack of total freedom; that's the archetypal strawman. I'm complaining about a specific limitation that has specific consequences which I specifically dislike.

 

I don't need to be able to do *anything* I want. I don't want to serial murder prostitutes in PoE, that's what GTA is for. I don't want to set people on fire and piss on their bodies, that's what Postal is for. I don't want to hack computers and fight corporations, that's what Shadowrun is for.

 

I just don't want to have to **** around with rest mechanics. Very specific.

 

Of course - you don't see the added value, and you're arguing against its exclusion. As I said, that's totally legitimate. I was addressing the whole "you should let players rest if they want to more choice the better" line that I've seen a lot in previous discussions. 

 

Back to the issue itself, my argument is precisely that resting limits isn't just an anti-frustration issue. The ability to rest anywhere eliminates a strategic / resources layer to gameplay that, I would argue, is what makes a dungeon an actual dungeon, instead of a magic vacuum. I want each fight to matter in the context of other fights, and I want to feel intimidated by a deep dungeon that wears down my character, and I want to think about taking out enemies with a depleted party as a different kind of tactical setpiece rather than always fighting with the same full arsenal. 

 

If it was purely about adding pointless frustration, nobody would like it. (Conversely, I also accept that yes, there is frustration involved - otherwise few people would be against it.)

Edited March 20, 2017 by Tigranes