Might attribute and the flimsy wizard

[esyvjrt]

Hello! i get frustrated every time i remember that physical and spiritual strength are inevitably related, 

The other characteristics included on the other attributed are more logically related, but physical and spiritual strength? Someone else bothers this? Hope this is changed.

 

I had this idea:(sorry, cant avoid it :v)

Might having two branches, one for physical strength and one for spiritual, if you have 16 might, you have 16 on physical and 16 on spiritual, you can relocate points from physical to spiritual and vise-versa, of course the bonuses on combat would be really small, but now there would be physical and spiritual strength attribute checks, so you can role a pure muscular with arcane dysfunction or a flimsy arcane genius wizard

 

[Leeuwenhart]

Hello! i get frustrated every time i remember that physical and spiritual strength are inevitably related,

The other characteristics included on the other attributed are more logically related, but physical and spiritual strength? Someone else bothers this? Hope this is changed.

 

I had this idea:(sorry, cant avoid it :v)

Might having two branches, one for physical strength and one for spiritual, if you have 16 might, you have 16 on physical and 16 on spiritual, you can relocate points from physical to spiritual and vise-versa, of course the bonuses on combat would be really small, but now there would be physical and spiritual strength attribute checks, so you can role a pure muscular with arcane dysfunction or a flimsy arcane genius wizard

 

A fighter lifts with his muscles

A wizard lifts with his magic

 

Both lift something. Different power source

 

 

Degree in that source= might level

 

Think of it as Darth Vader force choking. Not using his real muscles now is he

 

 

Same with might in convos..

 

You could intimidate by clamping down hard on a shoulder; muscles bulging and looking down in that persons eyes as a giant fighter.

 

 

Or you could make a fist that violently catches blue flame while your voice brims over with arcane power and the air singes around you.

 

 

Both got might.

Its just not the same might.

 

Youre right in that they are different.

But they dont need a seperate stat.

 

Remember. Its MIGHT.

 

Not Strength or Brawn. Which are a lot more connected to physical aspects.

 

:D

[rjshae]

It's just a different interpretation of how magic works than in D&D. I just think of physical body power in PoE as the battery for unleasing destructive magic. In that sense it's similar to the east Asian concept of life energy: a low life energy (chi) equates to sluggishness and fatigue. A wimpy wizard needs to focus more on other forms of magic, increasing their control of the battle through non-physical attacks and larger AoE. In contrast, a battle mage needs a stronger body to directly attack enemy warriors.

[draego]

I thought the attributes were a good way to make them all mean something to every class. It wasn't always completely successful. As for wizards you can make a great wizard with no might. Your wizard could be "flimsy arcane genius wizard" as you say easily. I don't see the issue.

[injurai]

"the pen mightier than the sword"

​

​see, it makes sense

[Heijoushin]

There is reason behind the madness. Obsidian's design philosophy was that they wanted no "dump stats". If you seperate the sources of magical and physical strength, one inevitably becomes a dump stat.

 

However, I do agree with you. On a role-playing level, it was a annoying in Pillars to get all the "brute force" options for your supposedly intellectual wizard. As Leeuwenhart says, we could look at this as "force choke", but I do hope Obsidian is a bit more careful writing these parts in the future.

[injurai]

Attributes are arbitrary in my mind. They aren't there to role-play, they are their to build the up the machinations that underly the game.

[blotter]

I agree that it's not a particularly big deal as long as they properly differentiate between sources of Might for different classes. As far as making attributes harder to dump goes, I think folding physical strength in with Constitution and calling it Vigor makes more sense conceptually. And what about multiclassed fighters/wizards, my poor bruiser priest of Magran, and/or dwarven boar druids who actually want to physically plow through obstacles rather than blast them? With Strength/Constitution as Vigor, magical potency could emerge from Resolve or Intellect, and the choice between options would exist for anyone with sufficiently high scores in them. 

 

If there were still worries about caster types plunging Vigor down to the point where they can barely breathe or something, then they could've also tied the attribute to how much a character could heal from spells or potions used on them or just made effects tied to Fortitude nastier if necessary. Granted, I don't think that this would truly result in undumpable stats, but I don't think any game in the Pillars series will either.

[Silent Winter]

There is reason behind the madness. Obsidian's design philosophy was that they wanted no "dump stats". If you seperate the sources of magical and physical strength, one inevitably becomes a dump stat.

 

However, I do agree with you. On a role-playing level, it was a annoying in Pillars to get all the "brute force" options for your supposedly intellectual wizard. As Leeuwenhart says, we could look at this as "force choke", but I do hope Obsidian is a bit more careful writing these parts in the future.

Josh mentioned in one of the Dev-commentary plays on Youtube/Twitch that he wanted to slightly alter these in the future to distinguish "your muscles bulge as you push on the wall" v. "You use magic to knock the wall down".  Of course, which one should a druid use?  "Shapeshift to boar form"

[Baramos]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it mentioned somewhere that most Wizards are physically fit due to Magic being physically demanding?

[blotter]

The line you may be thinking of is: "Far from being occult or protected knowledge, most wizards' spells are just so incredibly complex and physically demanding that even practiced wizards cannot invoke them without the use of expensive, specially-enchanted tomes." (http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Wizard)

[ericdy]

I have no problem to might as it is now. Whenever I build a "weak" character it is constitution that determines the physical condition

[Heijoushin]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it mentioned somewhere that most Wizards are physically fit due to Magic being physically demanding?

 

Yeah, they did possibly mention that. And I agree that brawns and brains shouldn't be mutually exclusive (adventurer wizards should definitely hit the gym occasionally!) But at the end of the day, they still shouldn't be quite as strong as a fighter, because they're dividing their time between exercise and book studies, whereas a fighter or barbarian is just doing exercise.

 

 

There is reason behind the madness. Obsidian's design philosophy was that they wanted no "dump stats". If you seperate the sources of magical and physical strength, one inevitably becomes a dump stat.

 

However, I do agree with you. On a role-playing level, it was a annoying in Pillars to get all the "brute force" options for your supposedly intellectual wizard. As Leeuwenhart says, we could look at this as "force choke", but I do hope Obsidian is a bit more careful writing these parts in the future.

Josh mentioned in one of the Dev-commentary plays on Youtube/Twitch that he wanted to slightly alter these in the future to distinguish "your muscles bulge as you push on the wall" v. "You use magic to knock the wall down".  Of course, which one should a druid use?  "Shapeshift to boar form"

 

Good to know! But yeah, some classes could go either way.

[Ninjamestari]

Hello! i get frustrated every time i remember that physical and spiritual strength are inevitably related, 

The other characteristics included on the other attributed are more logically related, but physical and spiritual strength? Someone else bothers this? Hope this is changed.

 

I had this idea:(sorry, cant avoid it :v)

Might having two branches, one for physical strength and one for spiritual, if you have 16 might, you have 16 on physical and 16 on spiritual, you can relocate points from physical to spiritual and vise-versa, of course the bonuses on combat would be really small, but now there would be physical and spiritual strength attribute checks, so you can role a pure muscular with arcane dysfunction or a flimsy arcane genius wizard

 

You're not the only one, but apparently such criticism is considered a sort of blasphemy here so watch your back. All in all I think their decision to go with this system alienates way more people than it attracts, and was, and still is, one major reason I didn't back the first game and I'm not going to back this one. I'll buy it if it seems good enough, just like I did with the first game.

[Heijoushin]

 

Hello! i get frustrated every time i remember that physical and spiritual strength are inevitably related, 

The other characteristics included on the other attributed are more logically related, but physical and spiritual strength? Someone else bothers this? Hope this is changed.

 

I had this idea:(sorry, cant avoid it :v)

Might having two branches, one for physical strength and one for spiritual, if you have 16 might, you have 16 on physical and 16 on spiritual, you can relocate points from physical to spiritual and vise-versa, of course the bonuses on combat would be really small, but now there would be physical and spiritual strength attribute checks, so you can role a pure muscular with arcane dysfunction or a flimsy arcane genius wizard

 

You're not the only one, but apparently such criticism is considered a sort of blasphemy here so watch your back. All in all I think their decision to go with this system alienates way more people than it attracts, and was, and still is, one major reason I didn't back the first game and I'm not going to back this one. I'll buy it if it seems good enough, just like I did with the first game.

 

 

lol, blasphemy? Take a chill pill mate. There are loads of whinners on this forum that criticize every single decision made by Obsidian, and also a portion of board members that defend those decisions. In other words, you're quite entitled to your opinion.

[Mikeymoonshine]

All it requires is a slight change of wording for certain classes, tho I quite liked that my Druid could do that stuff it suited her character. I guess you don't actually have to pick those lines anyway. 

[Ninjamestari]

Yeah, maybe blasphemy was a bit melodramatic word, but the people defending the system seem to go through rather extensive mental gymnastics to come up with rationalizations on why "there is no problem", and since everyone and their mother is whining about people not respecting their 'opinions', I merely find it rather hypocritical that they themselves don't then respect the views of those they disagree with. I'm merely pointing that out, since the difficulty is often due to a failure in making a proper distinction between what is real and what is an opinion.

[Bluedemonfox]

It did bother me in scripted interactions where my wizard would use physical strength to move some huge boulder, or push a wall down with his bare hands, or lift people with his fist... why do all that when you have awesome magic at your disposal!? I choose Wizard because...Magic!

 

The might system is fine as is. They just need to change some wording in interactions involving wizards. If a flimsy wall blocks my way then I should be able to blast it down with a fireball or something. etc...

 

Now in most scripted interactions using physical strength used up fatigue which is why I think spells should also use up fatigue. In fact I think it might be better to remove the whole "per encounter" or "per rest" mechanic and replace it entirely with fatigue. It would make more sens and feel more natural and can still accomplish the same thing. They can keep per rest mechanic for usable items like the ones used to summon minions and such.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Bluedemonfox

[Caeyrii]

Intellect is pretty good at being useful for both physical and magical classes, so I don't think there'd much hate if it becomes the "magic" stat. The problem is where will it leave Might for non-physical classes? With, as much as I understand it, PoE's core principle for its attribute system, there should still be a reason for a Wizard to dip a bit in the Might, sans being multiclassed to a physical class.

[amazeing4art]

I have to agree with the OP... basically in this game every wizard or priest or Druid that casts strong spells has to look like Conan the Barbarian, because they use that same might to bend bars (such as at Raedrics) and other things.

 

I think it's a good system from the point of view of stat balance and 'no dump stats', having Might work for both spells and physical strength does achieve this. So I understand the motivation. But the end result is slightly comical -- in my imagination at least... I just picture all casters as Conan with little pointy hats and wearing a colorful robe/dress.

 

This could be solved by changing the text in scripts so that if a wizard is at raedrics, it would say 'try to use your strong magic to bend open the gate' or something like this. However the entire idea of having only physically strong characters being able to do certain things, which I think is a good, common sense idea... like bend bars or bash down a door, is kind of defeated if anyone else with 'magical strength' can do it too. Then there really is no physical strength check in the game at all (like there are for athletics, survival, dexterity, intelligence, etc).

 

Also I thought there were stat balance issues with casters in general, I always maximized might and intelligence for wizards, priests and druids and that seemed to be clearly the best choice on POTD anyway. So everyone had high might, except maybe the tanks in plate armor. Which if you think about it is totally funny and backwards... the big guy in 75 pounds of plate armor getting repeatedly crushed by giant ogre clubs is the one guy with the least physical strength in the party. No amount of fancy argument can make that understandable.

[Ninjamestari]

I really don't see why they even changed the system that worked for D&D so well. Strength describes a physical trait of a character perfectly, and there are consequences for having low or high strength. And since there is one other attribute that is problematic, namely perception because through providing accuracy, it is necessary for everyone. So remove perception, add Willpower that improves the power of spells and spell like abilities akin to Might, and split accuracy between accuracy for spells that comes from intelligence and an accuracy for physical attacks that comes from dexterity. Problem solved.

[Leeuwenhart]

 

Hello! i get frustrated every time i remember that physical and spiritual strength are inevitably related,

The other characteristics included on the other attributed are more logically related, but physical and spiritual strength? Someone else bothers this? Hope this is changed.

 

I had this idea:(sorry, cant avoid it :v)

Might having two branches, one for physical strength and one for spiritual, if you have 16 might, you have 16 on physical and 16 on spiritual, you can relocate points from physical to spiritual and vise-versa, of course the bonuses on combat would be really small, but now there would be physical and spiritual strength attribute checks, so you can role a pure muscular with arcane dysfunction or a flimsy arcane genius wizard

You're not the only one, but apparently such criticism is considered a sort of blasphemy here so watch your back. All in all I think their decision to go with this system alienates way more people than it attracts, and was, and still is, one major reason I didn't back the first game and I'm not going to back this one. I'll buy it if it seems good enough, just like I did with the first game.

 

"I always feeeeel liiiikee..

..somebodyyyy'sss watching meeeee..."

[draego]

I really don't see why they even changed the system that worked for D&D so well. Strength describes a physical trait of a character perfectly, and there are consequences for having low or high strength. And since there is one other attribute that is problematic, namely perception because through providing accuracy, it is necessary for everyone. So remove perception, add Willpower that improves the power of spells and spell like abilities akin to Might, and split accuracy between accuracy for spells that comes from intelligence and an accuracy for physical attacks that comes from dexterity. Problem solved.

 

It didn't work well in baldur's gate d&d. you couldnt make a low int wizard or a low might fighter. This is the point you didn't even have a choice. At least in POE there is some choice. And no perception is not necessary for everyone. I've made builds with leaving perception even or slightly below. POE was a step in the right direction. If they tweek it i hope they dont go back to BG style for sure. 

Edited February 20, 2017 by jnb0364

[Fardragon]

Some tank builds don't need perception.

[Archaven]

 

I really don't see why they even changed the system that worked for D&D so well. Strength describes a physical trait of a character perfectly, and there are consequences for having low or high strength. And since there is one other attribute that is problematic, namely perception because through providing accuracy, it is necessary for everyone. So remove perception, add Willpower that improves the power of spells and spell like abilities akin to Might, and split accuracy between accuracy for spells that comes from intelligence and an accuracy for physical attacks that comes from dexterity. Problem solved.

 

It didn't work well in baldur's gate d&d. you couldnt make a low int wizard or a low might fighter. This is the point you didn't even have a choice. At least in POE there is some choice. And no perception is necessary for everyone. I've made builds with leaving perception even or slightly below. POE was a step in the right direction. If they tweek it i hope they dont go back to BG style for sure. 

 

 

I take it that it has pros and cons. Pros being fail safe that no one will build a bad character. Cons being possibly stats being "irrelevant" and solely for min-maxing. And if they decided to not off balance, might as well remove ability scores all together. Like many "simplified" RPGs ala Dragon Age Inquistion.