Now, get rid of crafting this time around!

[TMZuk]

Remove it! Don't have it! Kill it with fire!

 

Read this excellent article about why:

 

Heroes! Don't! Craft!

 

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/02/29/rpgs-crafting-pc-games/

[tinysalamander]

No.

 

[Boeroer]

The article doesn't fit PoE. The crafting system is very simple, the game doesn't force you to craft nor does it push you, all recepies are known from the start and you only have to press two buttons in order to enchant things, bake a cake, brew a potion or write a scroll. And you can totally skip it. You don't miss fancy things when you don't craft. Except durgan steel maybe.

 

So if you don't like it, don't use it. It's already in the game engine and I think it doesn't give us or OBS any advantage when they remove it.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Boeroer

[injurai]

Heroes don't craft? What the hell is that horse ****.

 

A hero probably cooks a gourmet meal from self-collected ingredients. A hero probably collects flowers to not scare the little girls when he/she comes into town with scars and bloodstains. A hero probably is probably more independent than you're average commoner.

 

Crafting should stay.

Edited February 16, 2017 by injurai

[demeisen]

PoE is one of the few games that more or less got crafting right... or at least, not completely wrong.

​

[pi2repsion]

I'd like to see crafting in CRPGs die and never come back, but I'm afraid it is a lost cause. With regards to game mechanics I like the optimization game of having to make do with what I can find or buy in-game and then having to mix and match based on that rather than being able to tailor make equipment to my requirements, and with regards to the roleplaying experience I like the thrill of finding magic items that aren't just something that I can create with a click of the mouse and some basic resources and find it much more rewarding when in-universe creating something that is the work of a master craftsman actually requires a master craftsman and a long time.

 

It sounds ridiculous, but I can completely understand people who'd be willing to pay more towards a stretch goal that removed crafting and I would even be tempted to join in funding that myself as it is utterly detrimental to my own enjoyment of CRPGs, since whenever a CRPG includes crafting it is balanced around it, which means that even those who dislike it have a hard time ignoring it.

 

But there are a lot of people who, for whatever reasons of their own and I'm not going to reject them out of hand, find crafting fun - heck, some of them probably even like collecting dozens of different ingredients in as large quantities as they find just in case they become useful for crafting something along the road to be fun, where I consider that to be thoroughly detrimental to immersion. That's just how it goes: different strokes for different folks.

 

 

At least Pillars 1 kept crafting/enchanting at a fairly low level even if it reduced every magic weapon or armour to "what basic enchants does it have, and is it one of the 'good' ones that doesn't 'waste' enchantment limit on something suboptimal when I start enchanting it myself" rather than "this is something special that I like as it is" or "this is something I'll only use until I get something better", though I consider it telling that the only things that couldn't be crafted, the soulbound items, were some of the most talked about items even if they were in many cases poorer than optimally enchanted items that people preferred using.

 

Though as regards the mass production of Potions of DAoM and scrolls that could trivialize any encounter, the less said the better.

 

...But yes, I'd much rather kill it with fire, returning to the items I find actually being worthwhile in and of themselves rather than for how they can be modified to something useful. I can still remember the names of some of the better weapons from the Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale series nearly two decades on and roughly what they did, and I still recall faintly where I found some of the better magic items in games such as Pools of Radiance going back three decades, but I doubt I'll remember the weapons of Pillars of Eternity for anything like that long because they were, in the end, just something to check for "does it have the speed enchant? Does it have room for superb enchanting? And a lash? is there anything that is actually special about it to distinguish it from how I can put quality/lash/slayer on everything to my taste?" etc... Once my party had weapons and armour with the best basic enchants, and some of those came very early in the game, almost all armour and weapons looted or found in shops after that were irrelevant and never used as the only thing that could improve on what I was already using was killing dragons to acquire ingredients to upgrade the quality.

 

Since killing crafting with fire is unlikely to happen, the only thing I can hope for is that Obsidian at least won't enlarge the crafting aspect for Deadfire.

Edited February 16, 2017 by pi2repsion

[Sedrefilos]

Just don't craft OP. Problem solved. That's what I do in most rpgs and never bothered me.

 

Only game I seriously crafted was Skyrim.

[Messier-31]

Just don't craft OP. Problem solved. That's what I do in most rpgs and never bothered me.

 

Only game I seriously crafted was Skyrim.

 

Seriously, this "crafting" that we have in PoE in the only thing similar to crafting in other games that I actually tried and sorta enjoyed. I never do these tedious tasks in other games, Skyrim is no exception. Shun it, shun, shuuuunnnnaaaaaa.

[mumbogumshoe]

I was pretty skeptical about crafting when they put it as a stretch goal in the first game. Most often it's a stupid grind. There's nothing less fun than to create hundreds of iron daggers to level up your smith skill in Skyrim and while it can be fun for a while to just walk around hunting mushrooms and picking berries, at some point you're wondering if you're playing a hiking simulator, not a fantasy RPG. Bethesda generally does an abysmal job with crafting systems. Fallout 4 was awful in this regard. While it might seem like a good and immersive idea to use all that trash lying around everywhere to MacGyver something useful, what it basically meant for a compulsive person like me is that I had to pick up every piece of junk, thinking that I'd probably have need for it later. Played havoc with the limited inventory, especially in survival mode or what it was called. Wasted so much time because of course I have to have the latest upgrades for my sniper rifle.

 

Anyway, the crafting system in PoE wasn't half as bad I found. Generally you had enough, or could easily get enough, crafting materials. That meant you didn't have to grind for them. As for rare materials, they were really rare, only two to four specimens of the most high end materials in the game. Prevents grinding as well because you can't do anything to get more of those anyway. No stupid hard to find recipes, no crafting skills that take skill points away from the skills you want your character to actually have. That was a big annoyance for me in NWN2. Crafting in PoE is extremely basic and hassle free. That makes it much less annoying than in many other games. I didn't mind it, in fact I quite liked it. I'm also looking forward to the changes that Josh has been talking about. Not being able to throw just any effect on a weapon but to upgrade an existing one is cool I think.

Edited February 16, 2017 by mumbogumshoe

[Doppelschwert]

I agree with pi2repsion.

 

Crafting is always in a bad spot - either it is ultimatively better than stuff you find, which makes it mostly mandatory for high-end content, which is often balanced around it, or it isn't and then why bother in the first place.

 

In general, but in particular in JRPGs, crafting often just reduces to a tedious grind to make your numbers go higher, especially when it becomes mandatory if you can't access stronger equipment otherwise.

 

Crafting in PoE did not fall into this category, but was rather bland as well. For the most part, it was just a way to make the numbers go up, so pretty unexciting.

 

The only game I played where crafting worked well (apart from the quest crafting in BG2) imho was gothic 2. Crafting there costs skill points, but the weapons are one of the best at the point where you can afford them. It's a tradeoff between a temporary power boost (you will replace those weapons at some point) and lasting character advancement. And if you don't want to invest into your strength all the way, they give an incentive to stop at specific breakpoints, where its cheaper to smith a proper weapon than investing more into strength, while resulting in the same power increase.

 

That being said, crafting in PoE2 seems to go into a good direction, if what they said so far will hold true. They described crafting as taking a piece of equipment with special properties, and then upgrading/expanding those properties in various ways, instead of adding new ones. That sounds like it just boils down into little "upgrade-trees" for each unique property - I think thats fairly interesting and will probably end up more balanced overall.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Doppelschwert

[Sedrefilos]

To make myself clear, just because I crafted in SKyrim doesen't mean I like crafting in general. Most of the times I don't. I just don't bother it being there since I'm not forced to craft.

And in Skyrim, although I liked its system, it made me quit the game in the middle of it because I saw that everything I had crafted and would craft in the future was way better that anything I find. That make me realize that there was no need to play the 80% that was the side content of the game (since the game was nothing special in terms of writing and roleplaying to balance things out - usless loot, great quest though!).

In the end, crafted never worked exactly as it should in any rpg, but I shouldn't care either. If I don't like, I don't bother with it.

[hilfazer]

I agree with pi2repsion.

 

Crafting is always in a bad spot - either it is ultimatively better than stuff you find, which makes it mostly mandatory for high-end content, which is often balanced around it, or it isn't and then why bother in the first place.

 

If only games could be party based.

Best items could then be obtainable through exploration/shopping but there would not be enough of them to equip whole party.

 

You want everyone to carry a halberd? Sure, here's an Infinity+1 Halberd that will make heads roll. You may also take this Infinity Halberd that is almost as capable. What? You want 4 more halberds? Uhm, there are other halberds but those are not quite up to the task.

But wait! You can craft your own halberds. They may not be as awesome as that Infinity+1 monster but they are surely capable enough.

 

Or simply do it like POE did. Not mandatory because there are high level items good enough for endgame content and still useful for empowering items that are not but are something that you'd like to use for whatever reasons you have.

[virgi26]

Josh said there's gonna be Alchemy skill =(

[Heijoushin]

That excellent article was a little whiny if you ask me

 

Look, its generally a weak feature, I agree. But as these things go, Pillars has done okay. Because in Pillars, its less "crafting", and more "upgrading". If you have exra cash to burn, and there are no magical weapons you want to buy, at least you can upgrade the stuff you have. And I appreciate the fact that I can make magical flaming swords on a whim.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Heijoushin

[rjshae]

I would like to be able to tag unusual crafting items that I need, then have them flagged '+' when they show up (such as in a store). Just saying...

[algroth]

I think crafting is one of those things where the exception kills the rule. It is frequently awful, yes, but it's a mechanic that has the capacity of being really interesting, useful and fun if done right. In this regard I definitely feel that a game should *not* have a crafting system just became "other similar games have it", but so long as you plan it through and seek to differentiate it from the norm, I'm all for it. So far what's been said about it for Deadfire intrigues me, and in any event I know I can ignore it if I don't end up liking it.

[Silent Winter]

I'd like to be able to rename my crafted weapons and armour.

I generally dislike crafting but PoE made it simple enough and in a 'take it or leave it' way - so I crafted a bit in PoE, even though I mostly used found equipment.

It's there if you want it, but you don't need it.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Silent Winter

[Aranduin]

I want crafting. And I hope see a better crafting in PoE2

Edited February 17, 2017 by Aranduin

[AwesomeOcelot]

I hate that every game has crafting and it's powerful enough that you can't just ignore it. Crafting has its place in Elder Scrolls or Don't Starve, but PoE and Mankind Divided didn't need it. Adding another system to design and balance, it's just not the best use of a devs time. It could easily be replaced by chef, mage, and blacksmith vendors plus quests for unique and powerful effects. Crafting is just a mindless trend in development, a feature box to tick, the only reason PoE had it is because all the other RPGs do, and they only have it because WoW and Oblivion sold tens of millions.

[stiven]

Remove it! Don't have it! Kill it with fire!

 

Read this excellent article about why:

 

Heroes! Don't! Craft!

 

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/02/29/rpgs-crafting-pc-games/

No. This is just silly, for first - crafting helps players customize they gear, make it more fit to their characters/builds. And for 2nd, craft may play big role in overall story, and be a money source. Srsly you need to be an neanderthals from stone age, to strongly hate crafting. It's like rioting aginst central heating in 2017, and demand to go back live into caves. You know, in old times games haven't crafting only cause it was too hard to implement it properly? And also some of old games have craft regardless. Also your point even more atlandish, since no one forced you to craft. I have beated PoE on PoTD without crafted even single scroll. If you don't like craft - just don't use it.

[ThatUndeadLegacy]

I enjoyed crafting and if you don't like it, well ignore it. 

[LordoftheMoo]

I like the level of crafting PoE had, as it was little more than making small improvements in the equipment you found, rather than creating things from scratch. I do like crafting a lot in general, but for a game like this it's just the right touch. Where the improvements aren't game breaking nor required to survive, it's just an optional touch for anyone who wants to, and can be safely ignored with no real impact on gameplay. I'm hoping that in PoE2 it's near the same, and hopefully not tied to a skill or similar. I don't want to have to grind out skill just to make minor upgrades to my current gear.

[Guest Blutwurstritter]

Crafting often hurts immersion. How on earth can my cheaply crafted sword beat an ages old magical artifact of might ? That just doesn't make any sense. This happens in alot of games that have crafting that scales. Pillars had a similar problem, where crafted weapons where often on par with found items. I liked the kind of crafting that Baldurs Gate 2 offered, where it was directly bound to adventuring and often quests with a limited amount of return in items. This way the items and crafting felt special and rewarding. I think PoE lacked memorable items and most weapons felt generic and replaceable while crafting was an uninspired clicking through menus. 

[Aotrs Commander]

It's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

BG2-style quest-crafting is great except for the fact that half the time, you end up an item that might be really powerful, but which is completely useless to anyone in your party. Whohoo, I crafted this really super-awesome axe; except no-one in my party has axe proficiency (or has picked weapon focus in weapon groups which do not include axes) or no-one uses two-hand weapons or something...

 

Same applies if you do the BG1 thing and have no crafting - you will very likely end up in a position of mandating to the player what weapons and armour the party will have to use (and likely make some weapon types just a poor choice). Even if you have some weapons for every weapon type, there's no garentee they'll be enough. Imagine if you have a couple of characters the player wants to have dual-wielding handaxes. If they aren't enough decent handaxes, the player has to either just not do that or has to live with a suboptimal choice because they though having a particualr weapon choice was cool or something.

 

PoE's crafting system had the problem that the uniques weren't really unique enough... But if, for example, you made the unique enchantment on top of the regular enchantment, then the argument would be that nobody ever uses anything but the uniques because they are better, so all you've done is move the goalposts and slightly added some option as to what elemental/slaying damage your default baseline weapon has,

 

(The other - and not very appropriate in this instance - solution is to do the Diablo thing where it becomes a luck-based loot generator.)

 

 

 

On top of all that, most heroes in literature tend to have either no special weapons or find one which sticks with the for the whole adventure - something you can't do in most tabletop RPGs without some sort of special mechanical effort.

 

 

 

I think PoE's choice was a reasonable compromise (though I very much wanted to have been able to craft stat boosting items, since playng musical chairs with all the stat boosters and the fixed bonus from armour (usually crafted) was mind of a nuisence... But then again, you might argue that would depreciate the value of found treasure (which was, by mid-late game, mostly "funny-shaped cash" anyway.

 

Like a lot of things. there is simply going to be no good answer, only a least bad one.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Aotrs Commander

[Osvir]

I thought Barik was fun, and that's the sort of "Crafting" I'd like to see honestly. But with more flavor, being able to choose various upgrades differently. Disassemble common loot automatically, and use that as Resource points to upgrade Weapons, Shields, How many Quick-Slots, How many Weapon Slots etc. all done in the Inventory screen. It'd be amazing.

1.Right-Click, (Equipment Slot) ​

2.Pick Option​ (See Resource Cost)

​3.Create New/Upgrade Item (Replaced Item disassembles back into Resource Pool).
​
​Enchant that Leather Armor, or add some scale or plate to it? Carve in elements into your Staff. Powerful, Legendary or Named items wouldn't be disassembled, but could.

​In Eternity and the IE games you get like 10'000 useless swords to sell just to buy a better weapon. Why? I'd rather have resources to make my gear better, and spend money on ship upgrades and faction or quest related events. Tolls and taxes. Food, Medical, Salaries, etc. etc.

​*dreams on*

​EDIT: Speaking of dreams... Hiravias has a backpack on his portrait, and the Neck accessory slot is a thing, and capes exist... any tiny chance that...? No? :D

Edited February 17, 2017 by Osvir