List of Subclasses as we learn about them.

[MaxQuest]

You mean it's better to avoid making a subclass being specialized into melee or ranged because it limits the way it can be played?

 

You know.. you have a point.

 

Ghost Heart, Black Jacket, Troubadour, Beckoner, Nalpazca indeed do not seem to limit the range at which the character should operate.

Although Soulblade and Spiritshift subclass do. And there are also Barbarians as a class, who can not be really effective at range, even if we wished to.

Edited July 6, 2017 by MaxQuest

[smjjames]

Soulblade isn't specialized to any specific weapon type, which is mostly what I meant, and the spiritshift focuses on a specific class feature, and spiritshift is limited to using the natural weapons anyway.

[Gromnir]

 

 

- Priest of Berath (closer to Paladin) passive bonus to 2H; 

- Priest of Scaen (closer to Rogue) passive bonus to dual-wielding;

"Passive bonus to weapon type" was a thing in Pillars?

 

 

Priests do have the 'favored weapon' thing, which is the closest it gets, but I've read that the bonus is pretty small, almost inconsequential.

 

 

 

inconsequential? underappreciated? perhaps.  inconsequential?  hardly.  puts the priest on equal accuracy footing with fighters with 1-2 weapons.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[MaxQuest]

Soulblade isn't specialized to any specific weapon type, which is mostly what I meant, and the spiritshift focuses on a specific class feature, and spiritshift is limited to using the natural weapons anyway.

Ah so it's not that much about range, as about weapon types. Understood. Edited July 6, 2017 by MaxQuest

[injurai]

I think some specializations should be be about range or melee. A Cipher as a nuke vs a tank. Druid as caster vs tank. Not every class should have paradigms split out that way, but some should.

[MortyTheGobbo]

Probably wouldn't want to specialize too much because one of the great things about PoE is that you can do a melee wizard or a ranged rogue* (or a ranged monk*) if you really wanted to, and I fully expect Obsidian to keep to that.

 

*Obviously, you'd be missing out on some of the class functions/abilities, but the thing is that there is absolutely nothing stopping you from doing so if you absolutely wished to, and a ranged rogue and monk could still be pretty functional.

 

Rogues don't actually lose any abilities by going ranged. Other than that, I agree.

[SaruNi]

 

Probably wouldn't want to specialize too much because one of the great things about PoE is that you can do a melee wizard or a ranged rogue* (or a ranged monk*) if you really wanted to, and I fully expect Obsidian to keep to that.

 

*Obviously, you'd be missing out on some of the class functions/abilities, but the thing is that there is absolutely nothing stopping you from doing so if you absolutely wished to, and a ranged rogue and monk could still be pretty functional.

 

Rogues don't actually lose any abilities by going ranged. Other than that, I agree.

 

Except for riposte, which was severely underpowered.

 

But in general ranged rogue was actually more powerful (or at least easier to play) than melee rogue.

 

If anything, I'd expect a riposte-oriented melee rogue subclass. But that's a bit predictable....

 

On second thought, a subclass that not only has an improved melee riposte, but can also use riposte with ranged weapons, could be interesting... a "Swashbuckler" who uses guns and/or swords and makes multiple "riposte" attacks while evading shots/blows.

Edited July 6, 2017 by SaruNi

[Quillon]

Rogues don't actually lose any abilities by going ranged. Other than that, I agree.

Really? Do all those "X Strike" abilities work with ranged weapons?

Edited July 6, 2017 by Quillon

[SaruNi]

 

Rogues don't actually lose any abilities by going ranged. Other than that, I agree.

Are all those "X Strike" abilities works with ranged weapons?

 

 

Yes. Backstab works with ranged weapons too, but you have to be within 2 meters of your target.

 

Riposte iirc is the only one requiring that a melee weapon be equipped, since otherwise gun ripostes would be ridiculous. But for a Swashbuckler-esque rogue, that could be fun (with balancing so it's not OP and so that melee riposte is good too... a different take on the "Swashbuckler" archetype to match the pirate theme)...

Edited July 6, 2017 by SaruNi

[smjjames]

 

 

Rogues don't actually lose any abilities by going ranged. Other than that, I agree.

Are all those "X Strike" abilities works with ranged weapons?

 

 

Yes. Backstab works with melee weapons too, but you have to be within 2 meters of your target.

 

 

I think you meant ranged there, and needing to be within 2 meters kind of nullifies the point of ranged.

[injurai]

Do you mean "range weapons too"?

 

It would be cool if backstab had no range limitation, but instead you had to be behind the target. But range attacks would still work.

[SaruNi]

Do you mean "range weapons too"?

 

It would be cool if backstab had no range limitation, but instead you had to be behind the target. But range attacks would still work.

 

Yes, that was a typo. Edited it.

[SaruNi]

 

 

 

Rogues don't actually lose any abilities by going ranged. Other than that, I agree.

Are all those "X Strike" abilities works with ranged weapons?

 

 

Yes. Backstab works with melee weapons too, but you have to be within 2 meters of your target.

 

 

needing to be within 2 meters kind of nullifies the point of ranged.

 

 

Not completely. Unlike melee backstab, you can still run before getting engaged. And you can get off a high-powered firearm shot. They changed backstab so that your first *two* consecutive strikes count as backstabs, so a quick-firing bow could let you get in two backstabs before having to escape. (Or, with sufficiently good defenses and/or CC, two firearm backstabs.) 

 

Similarly, I guess they'd feel obliged to balance ranged riposte so that firearms aren't clearly far superior to bows. Maybe adjust the % chance of riposte to 90% for melee, 70% for ranged non-firearms, 50% for firearms. (Maybe a separate % category for two-handed too... 95% one-handed special riposte weapons, 85% regular one-handed, 70% two-handed, 60% bow, 45% crossbow, 30% firearm (or just make it dependent on attack speed and whether melee or ranged)... and/or accuracy bonuses or penalties etc. Lots of options.)

Edited July 6, 2017 by SaruNi

[MortyTheGobbo]

There's also the Escape ability, that you can use to get out of engagement. I beat the game with a crossbow rogue. Stacking the right conditions and performing a surgical strike from stealth could result in pretty obscene damage.

 

This is all a good thing, mind you. There's no reason rogues shouldn't be able to be snipers. But it is perhaps too good in comparison to melee. I wonder what Deadfire will do about that. We know that rogues will be tougher overall, and that there will be an assassin subclass that requires positioning and is flimsier, but can do a lot of damage if positioned properly. I suspect it will be melee-specific, since otherwise we run into the same problem.

Edited July 6, 2017 by MortyTheGobbo

[SaruNi]

There's also the Escape ability, that you can use to get out of engagement. I beat the game with a crossbow rogue. Stacking the right conditions and performing a surgical strike from stealth could result in pretty obscene damage.

 

This is all a good thing, mind you. There's no reason rogues shouldn't be able to be snipers. But it is perhaps too good in comparison to melee. I wonder what Deadfire will do about that. We know that rogues will be tougher overall, and that there will be an assassin subclass that requires positioning and is flimsier, but can do a lot of damage if positioned properly. I suspect it will be melee-specific, since otherwise we run into the same problem.

 

Instead of making Assassin melee-specific, they could just make the bonuses dependent on weapon type, with melee getting a significantly larger bonus than ranged, and certain melee weapon types getting more of a bonus (that could also solve the issue with stilettos etc. being underpowered for backstab).

[SaruNi]

For Assassins, extra damage for melee weapons could be explained as a "twist the knife" type ability. And since the bonuses will already be dependent on positioning, bonuses could scale with proximity to target (for both melee and ranged weapons... so you could walk up to someone and stick a gun to some vital area, but you wouldn't be able to "twist the knife" with a gun, or shift it once you've made contact to target vital areas... and if you have a melee weapon with a long reach, you can backstab from farther away, but you may be less accurate in striking vital areas and less able to "twist the knife" for extra damage).

 

Edit: Or, if they want to keep the subclass bonuses relatively simple, they could just make the Assassin bonus dependent on position (behind to get effect + scaling with proximity) and give melee rogue backstab a buff with a "Twist the Knife" type ability that gives a bonus to melee weapon backstab and sneak attack. Maybe another backstab ability that adds a very brief stun (or other very disabling) effect too so stilettos can get in a second backstab but not long enough for a second pistol backstab (without risking interrupts...).

 

Also, remember they've said that rogues will be "sturdier" in PoE 2, which means there probably won't be as much of a defensive advantage to ranged over melee---so melee rogue is already getting a relative buff.

 

In addition to supporting melee-only and ranged-only playstyles, PoE 2 should support mixed melee and range characters. Designated "melee-only" or "ranged-only" subclasses should be limited to cases where the base class already includes a focus on abilities of the other type---most obviously casters whose spells and abilities are almost exclusively ranged, like ciphers with Soulblade. Or a ranged barbarian subclass (since ordinary carnage is melee weapon only), like what the gun-wielding orlan barbarian/cipher companion appears to be.

Edited July 7, 2017 by SaruNi

[SaruNi]

Ranger obviously has some abilities that are ranged-only, so a melee ranger subclass would be good. Preferably not just a stereotypical old D&D dual-wielding DPS ranger... what about a tankier ranger who uses the environment? Maybe prevents enemies from disengaging (% chance to prevent disengagement through ordinary movement, and lower % chance to prevent special abilities from causing disengagement)... and gets extra bonuses against elemental or terrain-related (from improved balance and aim on specific terrain or in specific weather conditions, etc.) attacks (maybe choosing a specific terrain or set of weather conditions, or learning them over the course of the game)? 

[smjjames]

I wonder how a ranged Barbarian would work though, like MORE DAKKA or something.... The dual weilding the pistols is definetly of help and a ranged barbarian is going to want to take talents/skills that reduce weapon switchout time.

 

Also, given the variety of terrain and weather conditions that Deadfire is supposed to have and the player is going to be in, specializing to specific weather conditions or terrain types doesn't seem like a great idea because then players will want to try and maximize the amount of specialization skills.

[SaruNi]

I wonder how a ranged Barbarian would work though, like MORE DAKKA or something.... The dual weilding the pistols is definetly of help and a ranged barbarian is going to want to take talents/skills that reduce weapon switchout time.

 

Also, given the variety of terrain and weather conditions that Deadfire is supposed to have and the player is going to be in, specializing to specific weather conditions or terrain types doesn't seem like a great idea because then players will want to try and maximize the amount of specialization skills.

 

Maybe instead of just choosing one terrain / weather type to specialize in for the whole game, let the subclass learn about different terrain / weather conditions by exploring them in the game and base the bonuses on that. (With maybe one initial terrain / weather type they've already got a high degree of knowledge about.)

 

The anti-disengagement Ranger could then get a bonus to the number of enemies that can be engaged, depending on knowledge of the terrain... and disengagement attacks could include a stun, prone, maybe a blind, et cetera. And there could be other ways of learning about different terrains / weather conditions (from wise people, from trainers, from books maybe, from spirits or visions or ciphers or gods, etc.).

 

Another boost to melee ranger would be making the ability that gives the Ranger a bonus to attacking enemies the pet  has engaged also give the pet a bonus for attacking enemies the Ranger has engaged....

[smjjames]

The 'incrementially learning about the environment' sounds like it would work if Deadfire had skill xp like the way Tyranny does (not the only example, just an example), but PoE1 doesn't have that and PoE2Deadfire definetly won't have that.

 

Being able to take advantage of the environment however, does make sense for Ranger because two of the archetypes are scout and hunter. It's just a case of 'how do you implement that in the PoE system'.

 

Did we ever find out what they were doing with the Survival skill? I know something was mentioned about redesigning it completely or even scrapping it.

Edited July 7, 2017 by smjjames

[SaruNi]

The 'incrementially learning about the environment' sounds like it would work if Deadfire had skill xp like the way Tyranny does (not the only example, just an example), but PoE1 doesn't have that and PoE2Deadfire definetly won't have that.

 

Being able to take advantage of the environment however, does make sense for Ranger because two of the archetypes are scout and hunter. It's just a case of 'how do you implement that in the PoE system'.

 

Did we ever find out what they were doing with the Survival skill? I know something was mentioned about redesigning it completely or even scrapping it.

 

It's not "XP allocated to individual skill", it's a skill that scales with areas you've explored. Like the way PoE 1 Bestiary has a % that increases as you kill more of that particular entry. And the way PoE keeps track of which areas you've explored. They'd just have to also count terrain type and weather type, make it like the Bestiary as a %, and use that to determine bonuses / penalties. 

 

And for the melee-focused, anti-disengagement Ranger: to counter special abilities that result in disengagement (like Rogue's Escape, or shadowing beyond/invisibility, or even teleport abilities), an enemy could be "marked" so that the Ranger has a % chance to follow them wherever they go, scaling with familiarity with the terrain and/or weather conditions.

Edited July 7, 2017 by SaruNi

[SaruNi]

If a Ranger subclass got (extra) bonuses for specific weather / terrain types, druid or other caster could also create them (or Ranger could multi-class)... maybe a proc-on-hit effect relative to weather / terrain too (for example, if there's already a weather/terrain effect the proc on hit could increase the chance of it applying to those not yet affected---prone in an earthquake, hobbled in brambles or vines, lightning in storm). 

 

Even with many different types of weather and terrain, they could be grouped into general enough categories (as with creature types in PoE 1)---or categories could be combined (as with weapon types in PoE 1)---so a Ranger subclass like the Blackjacket but for weather/terrain could be doable. Could be combined with specializing in different creature types (bonus defending against them, and extra bonus when attacking their weaknesses---which again creates synergy with casters, for example flaming weapons vs. a creature vulnerable to fire) and learning from bestiary. So maybe just as the Blackjacket starts with an extra weapon proficiency and the quickswitch ability, the environment / creature specialist Ranger could start with one environment, one weather, and one creature type, and gain more through bestiary and its environment / weather equivalents....

Edited July 7, 2017 by SaruNi

[Osvir]

Regarding Sub-Classes... isn't "throwables" a thing in Deadfire? (I recall something about it earlier in campaign)

 

Wouldn't that unlock more variables for sub-classes? (An axe throwing Barbarian, or a potion brewing Wizard).

 

Edit: Asked Josh a question about in on tumblr, we'll see if we get an answer.

 

I can see how a potion wielding Wizard could work, but would require perhaps some mechanical adjustments.

 

A potion belt instead of a Grimoire, and spells being infused into the potions (Fireball potion for instance).

 

And instead of limited uses, consumables, it could simply be explained "The Alchemist brews new potions during Rest" (in essence: Per Rest abilities).

 

Will probably not happen but would be pretty darn cool. Or a potion user who shoots potions from a sling.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Osvir

[Boeroer]

Last time this question was asked during a Twitch stream Josh said that they don't plan to introduce throwing weapons.

 

I think that's sad because it could be easily done with mechanics which are already in the game - like X uses per encounter on an item. Let's say you have a spear which is also suitable for throwing. It could give you 3 uses of "throwing spear" per encounter. 

Edited July 7, 2017 by Boeroer

[Osvir]

Why? It's not like it's "3 Arrows" per encounter with a bow. If it's a ranged weapon it should function like all other ranged weapons (Wand, Gun, Bow, Crossbow) etc. meaning, "Throwing Axes" and "Javelins" would be considered "Ranged Weapons" (in Tyranny that's how it works, Throwing Daggers and Javelins).

But oh well, nevermind... why and where did I get the recollection that they would include throwables? Hm, I don't remember. Maybe it was a very loose "maybe include".

I agree it is sad for several reasons. Personally because "Marauder" would fit so well with a Barbarian Axe Thrower (Total War: Warhammer Chaos units, Axe Throwers on Horses = Marauders).

Throwing Daggers = Rogue Sub-Class Focus
Throwing Axes = Barbarian Sub-Class Focus
Throwing Spears/Javelin = ??? Ranger? (I'm instantly associating it to Amazon but I'm also thinking it could fit into Throwing Axes~ a Barbarian Sub-Class that focuses on both Javelins and Spears, or Throwable weapons in general~)
Throwing Potions = a Wizard sub-class, but it could also be an entirely new class (Alchemist, with Potion Belt instead of Grimoire, or a Wizard Sub-Class with Potion Per Rest abilities, and even Per Encounter Potions, brewed in-between fights)

IIRC in Baldur's Gate 2 or Icewind Dale there were even Throwable Hammers (I seem to remember outfitting one of my dudes with a "Returning Throwable Hammer"). Again, it's just opening up doors for more Sub-Classes, but I also understand it'd open up more doors to developer hell.

Last final straw of hope, though, is that a "Throwing" weapon (as of old) is not actually a "Throwing" weapon, but rather, it is more accurately regarded (today) as a "Ranged" weapon. The difference is very vague... in games of Old, Throwing Weapons were pretty much always "consumable". Daggers in Baldur's Gate for instance, functioned like Ammunition. They were expendable. Same with arrows, but they were still dependant on a bow, and the bow wasn't expendable.

And in Tyranny, Throwing Daggers and Javelins aren't expendable, so... are they not simply "Ranged" weapons then? Am I being too hopeful to say that when Obsidian says "There won't be any throwable weapons" they actually say "You won't be able to throw Halberds, Swords, Axes, Wands, at your opponent and expend them" but they aren't saying "Tyranny-like ranged throwable weapons won't exist in Deadfire?"       

EDIT: Speaking of throwing weapons and expendable items xD....... I just had an idea of a Wizard ability that would be epic!

Grimoire Bomb = Channel all your magic into your Grimoire and throw the Grimoire at the opponent. What ensues is all the chaos and magic that exist within that Grimoire, exploding and manifesting at the thrown location. The Grimoire will dissipate and disappear after its awesome display. Follow all Safety Guidance measures for your own safety.

Anyways, enough brainstorming from me, if it's out it's out.... too bad

Edited July 7, 2017 by Osvir