Romance

[Aotrs Commander]

Just out of honest and genuine curiousity, what was the opinion on Obsidian including "sex with prostitutes (who have no apparent restrictions on gender of client) gives you (sometimes quite significant) stat bonuses" in PoE (and Tyranny)?

 

(I mean, I know the inclusion of prostitutes somewhere was a staple of IE games since BG 1, but I don't think, for all the (not unjustified) flack people give Bioware over their one-sex-scene-at-conclusion-of-romance-arc, they have done that (edit: clarification by "that" I mean "give stat boosts for sex," not "use protistutes," which you could do in pretty much any game beyond BG1 (where it was a little wierd they put you in a brothel but that wasn't an option) (unless they have in the post ME3 games i haven't played properly?)

 

Is that better, worse, different or what?

 

 

 

Ancillery question (because, again, I'm interested in what people think), what would people feel about being able to have sex with your companions without romance ever coming up? (I'm not suggesting that is something that should be done, but I am interested in whether people would think that was better or worse than romances, and particularly in context with the above prostitute question.)

 

 

 

Ancillery ancillery question: what about romance that did not involve sex (in the course of the game's timeline, perhaps assuming that a character in question would want to wait until after [some event] (the world is safe/marriage/somethng else etc...)? (And would thus sidestepping any possbility of Bioware's... interesting...? attempts at sex scenes.) Better, worse etc...?

Edited February 15, 2017 by Aotrs Commander

[Leeuwenhart]

Just out honest and genuine curiousity, what was the opinion on Obsidian including "sex with prostitutes (who have no apparent restrictions on gender of client) gives you (sometimes quite significant) stat bonuses" in PoE (and Tyranny)?

 

(I mean, I know the inclusion of prostitutes somewhere was a staple of IE games since BG 1, but I don't think, for all the (not unjustified) flack people give Bioware over their one-sex-scene-at-conclusion-of-romance-arc, they have done that (unless they have in the post ME3 games i haven't played properly?)

 

Is that better, worse, different or what?

 

 

 

Ancillery question (because, again, I'm interested in what people think), what would people feel about being able to have sex with your companions without romance ever coming up? (I'm not suggesting that is something that should be done, but I am interested in whether people would think that was better or worse than romances, and particularly in context with the above prostitute question.)

 

 

 

Ancillery ancillery question: what about romance that did not involve sex (in the course of the game's timeline, perhaps assuming that a character in question would want to wait until after [some event] (the world is safe/marriage/somethng else etc...)? (And would thus sidestepping any possbility of Bioware's... interesting...? attempts at sex scenes.) Better, worse etc...?

Romance without sex...

 

You mean marriage?

 

 

Bada Bing!

[Rorschach]

Hopefully they'll make the system complex enough that it wont be easy to game. The concept of "Romance Guides" is pretty inherently silly, and mostly just seemed to ruin character roleplay immersion in Bioware games, where it wasn't unusual to see people talking about "How they imagined it actually went down" because the things needed to be said and done to keep the "romance" in play didn't jive with their vision for the character.

Although I agree with you, romance guides are inevitable as long as the game is deterministic. They could add a random variable for it but I don't think that's too good for narrative. As I said, I agree 100% with the rest of the post.

[Leeuwenhart]

In the middle of the dungeon.

 

"**** guys... i gotta go home. The wife's making stew and its family night. You can take my camping gear. See yaaaa!"

Edited February 15, 2017 by Leeuwenhart

[Andraste]

Just out of honest and genuine curiousity, what was the opinion on Obsidian including "sex with prostitutes (who have no apparent restrictions on gender of client) gives you (sometimes quite significant) stat bonuses" in PoE (and Tyranny)?

 

The PC can have sex with prostitutes in both Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2 but you don't get any stat bonuses for it. I don't really care either way if they include sex workers and/or bonuses for having sex with them in the next game.

 

 

 

Ancillery question (because, again, I'm interested in what people think), what would people feel about being able to have sex with your companions without romance ever coming up? (I'm not suggesting that is something that should be done, but I am interested in whether people would think that was better or worse than romances, and particularly in context with the above prostitute question.)

 

I would love that. In fact, my ideal game relationship would be an ongoing friends-with-benefits thing where the companion breaks it off if you confess that you've developed feelings for them. I've never seen that, only characters that start out just wanting sex and develop feelings for the PC. (Not that I have anything against Zevran, Isabela or Iron Bull, etc. etc. but something different would be nice.)

 

 

 

Ancillery ancillery question: what about romance that did not involve sex (in the course of the game's timeline, perhaps assuming that a character in question would want to wait until after [some event] (the world is safe/marriage/somethng else etc...)? (And would thus sidestepping any possbility of Bioware's... interesting...? attempts at sex scenes.) Better, worse etc...?

 

There are some of those in the Dragon Age games - Sebastian and the player can have a celibate marriage in DA2 because he's made a vow to the Chantry, and the Josephine and Solas romances don't even have the fade-to-black sex scenes that are in the other romances in that game. You can also complete the Alistair romance in DAO after telling him you want to wait until after the whole Archdemon thing is dealt with. I thought those were all fine options, and wouldn't mind seeing romances that don't explicitly include sex or explicitly don't include sex.

[evilcat]

Just out of honest and genuine curiousity, what was the opinion on Obsidian including "sex with prostitutes (who have no apparent restrictions on gender of client) gives you (sometimes quite significant) stat bonuses" in PoE (and Tyranny)?

 

(I mean, I know the inclusion of prostitutes somewhere was a staple of IE games since BG 1, but I don't think, for all the (not unjustified) flack people give Bioware over their one-sex-scene-at-conclusion-of-romance-arc, they have done that (unless they have in the post ME3 games i haven't played properly?)

 

Is that better, worse, different or what?

 

Ancillery question (because, again, I'm interested in what people think), what would people feel about being able to have sex with your companions without romance ever coming up? (I'm not suggesting that is something that should be done, but I am interested in whether people would think that was better or worse than romances, and particularly in context with the above prostitute question.)

 

Ancillery ancillery question: what about romance that did not involve sex (in the course of the game's timeline, perhaps assuming that a character in question would want to wait until after [some event] (the world is safe/marriage/somethng else etc...)? (And would thus sidestepping any possbility of Bioware's... interesting...? attempts at sex scenes.) Better, worse etc...?

 

It is not about thinking what is good or bad, or how to introduce some elements into game, but about opportunity to tell other players that their opinion sucks.

Also Bioware ended on BG2.

 

Prostitutes: I think it is kind of joke. And tieing gameplay with narration. It is ok.

 

As for sex without love, and love without sex. With who? Depends on companion.

Hilvaris: i could imagine him going with the instinct and some furry quickie. Probably not long term relationship.

 

Pallegina - If we have a knight in shinny armour there is a place for chilvaric roman. But this time Knight is a chick. This character have alot of conflict potencial of duty, justice, destiny. We can make it easier adding feelings to the mix. Game story time would probably be too short to sort it all out, but we can have thing going.

 

Once narration dev get greenlight for romances all colour and shapes are possible.

Just make it not an accident, and leave safety exit "Sorry the feeling is gone" if player misclick.

[Strange_Trees]

Hopefully they'll make the system complex enough that it wont be easy to game. The concept of "Romance Guides" is pretty inherently silly, and mostly just seemed to ruin character roleplay immersion in Bioware games, where it wasn't unusual to see people talking about "How they imagined it actually went down" because the things needed to be said and done to keep the "romance" in play didn't jive with their vision for the character.

Although I agree with you, romance guides are inevitable as long as the game is deterministic. They could add a random variable for it but I don't think that's too good for narrative. As I said, I agree 100% with the rest of the post.

 

I suppose it could be interesting if some of the variables depended on who else was in the group at the time?

 

For example: Companion X triggers a conversation in regards to some recent happening in-game. Companion Y, if present, can interject with something that X finds disagreeable. Depending on how the conversation goes, the Player can side with X or Y, in each case angering the other, or neither, angering both. Let's say without some high stat check, it is not possible to resolve the conversation amicably with both X and Y. Of course, if Companion Z was present instead of Y, maybe things would go differently. And these could be significant factors, not just a throwaway interaction.

 

With that, something like a "Romance Guide" would be less of "Select answers 1, 3 or 4, but NOT 2, give cake, kiss, congrats" and end up looking more like a Let's-Play in text form.

[ThatUndeadLegacy]

Do you guys think it will Reach 3m? 

[Leeuwenhart]

Do you guys think it will Reach 3m?

It already has exceeded tbat.

 

Investments just need to be processed.

 

I think were at 3.5 now in reality

[Amentep]

To Aotrs Commander's questions.

Just out of honest and genuine curiousity, what was the opinion on Obsidian including "sex with prostitutes (who have no apparent restrictions on gender of client) gives you (sometimes quite significant) stat bonuses" in PoE (and Tyranny)?
 
(I mean, I know the inclusion of prostitutes somewhere was a staple of IE games since BG 1, but I don't think, for all the (not unjustified) flack people give Bioware over their one-sex-scene-at-conclusion-of-romance-arc, they have done that (unless they have in the post ME3 games i haven't played properly?)
 
Is that better, worse, different or what?
 
Its a way to add an element of gameplay to what is otherwise an economic sink in a game and thus give a cost-benefit rationale to go/not go with a prostitute while allowing the game to support the inclusion of element that probably would exist in the setting.
 
Ancillery question (because, again, I'm interested in what people think), what would people feel about being able to have sex with your companions without romance ever coming up? (I'm not suggesting that is something that should be done, but I am interested in whether people would think that was better or worse than romances, and particularly in context with the above prostitute question.)
 
 If it makes sense for the NPC and the player the PC created to pursue that avenue, then it makes sense in the game.
 
Ancillery ancillery question: what about romance that did not involve sex (in the course of the game's timeline, perhaps assuming that a character in question would want to wait until after [some event] (the world is safe/marriage/somethng else etc...)? (And would thus sidestepping any possbility of Bioware's... interesting...? attempts at sex scenes.) Better, worse etc...?

 

I don't think relationships between NPC-PC or NPC-NPC need to be "resolved" in the same way.  Maybe the PC-NPC have sex at the beginning and it never progresses past that.  Maybe they never have it.  The important thing is to make it a rich and interesting character interaction between PC and NPC that does not sublimate the NPC to the will of the PC.

[Yellow Rabbit]

It's kinda funny how J.Sawyer just grazed possibility of romantic feelings in his companions relationship talk and people immediatly went "Yay, Romances, LGBT-gays-bioware-sux, what-can-change-the-nature-of-a-romance" conundrum. Honestly, if I'd be in his place, I'd just tuned the system so any resemblance of PC's romantic relationship with any companion could be reached only somewhere near the end of the game and went off without any real resolution. Just to screw with this trend of romantics being somehow blessing of the RPGs in the eyes of some vocal groups of people.

 

P.S. Sorry for my broken language, non-native speaker here.

[Amentep]

It's kinda funny how J.Sawyer just grazed possibility of romantic feelings in his companions relationship talk and people immediatly went "Yay, Romances, LGBT-gays-bioware-sux, what-can-change-the-nature-of-a-romance" conundrum. Honestly, if I'd be in his place, I'd just tuned the system so any resemblance of PC's romantic relationship with any companion could be reached only somewhere near the end of the game and went off without any real resolution. Just to screw with this trend of romantics being somehow blessing of the RPGs in the eyes of some vocal groups of people.

 

P.S. Sorry for my broken language, non-native speaker here.

 

I actually think its more exciting that they're working on deeper relationships in general.  I'm happy that romance can be a part of that, but honestly a handful of really well written companions with a lot of reactivity is the goal in my eyes whether there's any sort of romance attached to the NPCs relationships (with PC or other NPCs) or not.

 

And I'd be completely okay with romance being an unresolved end game element provided it was interesting getting there.  Heck I could see with the right execution something where the PC and NPC have a lot of "you know when all this is over lets get dinner..." kind of dialogue, and have an end slide that just says the PC and NPC did go to dinner and leave it for the player to decide how that went outside of the game.  There's no real reason that a romantic subplot needs to be 'resolved' before the final boss fight or resolved in a positive or concrete way, IMO.

[tinysalamander]

…should be represented in somewhat realistic ways and numbers (aka, if you have six companions and four are gay/bi you're doing it wrong).

 

A party of 6 is way too small of a sample to claim any “realistic numbers,” IMO.

[Mikeymoonshine]

the realism of gay wizards is a serious issue tho.

[Sylvus_Moonbow]

I REALLY CANNOT BELIEVE HOW THIS THREAD WENT FROM BEGGING FOR ROMANCE TO FIGHTING OVER LGBT RATIOS AND ACCEPTIBLE FREQUENCIES IN 1 DAY AFTER A VALENTINE ANNOUNCEMENT OF THESE ROMANCES.

 

 

WTF PEOPLE LOL.

HAHAHA

 

lol.

 

It has been a crazy ride, that's for sure but there are much more important questions that need discussing.

 

Will the sex scenes be fade to black with some sound and music, a storyboard with pencil sketch and options based on our skills, or a cutscene?

[Strange_Trees]

Will the sex scenes be fade to black with some sound and music, a storyboard with pencil sketch and options based on our skills, or a cutscene?

 

Tyranny had a pretty amusing thing going when you, ahem, enjoyed the company of a prostitute: Fade to black, accompanied by the sounds of a furiously hammered anvil.

[Leeuwenhart]

 

Will the sex scenes be fade to black with some sound and music, a storyboard with pencil sketch and options based on our skills, or a cutscene?

Tyranny had a pretty amusing thing going when you, ahem, enjoyed the company of a prostitute: Fade to black, accompanied by the sounds of a furiously hammered anvil.

So...

 

Options for being hammer or anvil confirmed?

[Flouride]

I have faith in Obsidian that they don't make the relationship into a cheap gimmick where you can just buy gifts to your companions ala Dragon Age to get them to like you. Same goes to playersexual characters. Nothing against lesbians, trans, gays, animals or golems but if everything in the game wants to **** you, it comes out as really stupid and cheap

 

I still remember my "shock" when pretty much every damn companion wanted to sleep with my Grey Warden.

It totally ruined my "immersion" into the game. Had there been some clues, flirting etc. from my character then I would have understood it, but everyone just suddenly started hitting on my poor character and I had to turn them down one by one. Ugh, that was just awful.

[illathid]

Getting back to the subject of romances, one thing I was thinking about was requiring the player to sacrifice something to achieve them. That way they're not so fan-service-y. Like maybe you have to chose between getting a powerful item or pursuing the relationship.

[ThatUndeadLegacy]

 

Will the sex scenes be fade to black with some sound and music, a storyboard with pencil sketch and options based on our skills, or a cutscene?

 

Tyranny had a pretty amusing thing going when you, ahem, enjoyed the company of a prostitute: Fade to black, accompanied by the sounds of a furiously hammered anvil.

 

got the same sound when you pleasured yourself. 

[Azarkon]

 

So then, how do you make a respectable romance? What, even, should be the goal? Presumably it still has to revolve around wish fulfillment, but of a more sophisticated kind.

 

I disagree; making the romance an explicit wish fulfillment is leading down the path of creating a feel good mini-game at the expense of your NPC. I think what needs to happen is that the game needs to allow the player to make a choice and have the game react to the consequences of that choice.

 

How I'd approach making a respectable romance -

1. Romance should not lock out the player from having an interesting traveling companion if they don't pursue the romance and should not lock players out of essential elements (ie items, xp)
2. The NPC's goals and interests should not be subsumed for a romance
3. A pursued romance shouldn't fail only because the PC ends it; the NPC should be able to end it as well
4. Each romance shouldn't end in the same place
5. It is okay to have the PC make a choice to pursue a romance with a character that will never end well
6. The game should react to the romance in a way that makes the romance meaningful as a choice/consequence regardless of the ultimate disposition of the romance
7. All rules are mutable with the right idea and good writing.

 

 

In my opinion, which I will not elaborate too much so as to avoid side tracking, all games - but especially CRPGs - have a kernel of wish fulfillment. We experience CRPGs vicariously, and it is not an accident that people often emotionally identify with their characters. This is not to say all games should make you feel happy. Aristotle emphasized the importance of pathos and catharsis as functions of drama. Tragic stories can also fulfill emotional needs.

 

But the central reason I bring up wish fulfillment with respect to romances in games, is that I want to warn developers against creating characters that no one wants to vicariously romance. There's that word again. As I mentioned above, romance is fundamentally a function of attraction, mostly physical, but also psychological and spiritual. You can't fake attraction, just as you can't fake excitement about a dramatic situation that ought to be exciting, but isn't because of the way it's presented, the competence of execution, etc. You would never say that the action segments of a game being boring is the fault of the player not being able to put themselves in the character's shoes, so by that same argument, you should never say that romantic characters being unattractive is the fault of the player putting too much of themselves & their own standards into their character.

 

Thus, foremost in a romance designer's mind must be the appeal of the character of interest. Attraction is, unfortunately, a deeply personal experience for which general principles can only serve as guidelines. Nonetheless, I'd say that, unless your purpose is to troll the player base, being too flippant about the nature of attraction is a bad idea. Romances can be experimental. They can involve subversion. They should be original. But they should never take the player's interest as granted. You need to earn that interest, and Obsidian especially should be cautious, because they already have a reputation for being reluctant to introduce romantic relationships, which could become a self-fulfilling destiny should they fail to create compelling interests. That would reflect poorly on the company, and would also reinforce its negative association with romantic themes, to the detriment of all.

[Ninjamestari]

No gays please, I have a too strong mental association between gays and poorly written Bioware characters to handle them ^^

 

Seriously though If it fits the character, go with it. I trust that if they write a romance it'll be because it felt natural for that character. In past Obsidian games, there have been deep feelings between characters even without a romance. That Blind Sith from The Sith Lord, Visas I think her name was, is a good example. I genuinely felt for her even without a romantic connection, and to me that character was beautiful, and a shallow kissy-kissy romance would've completely butchered the experience. The worst offence Obsidian has ever done with characters has been boring characters, I've yet to see them come up with an actually bad one, so I think we're in good hands with this.

[injurai]

Prostitution is legal in germany, the liberal bastion of the world. So check mate liberals.

​

​Women putting in a honest days work. That should please the conservatives.

​

​The naysayers left over are just being brats. Go burn copies of GTA or something.

[Aotrs Commander]

Prostitution is legal in germany, the liberal bastion of the world. So check mate liberals.

​

​Women putting in a honest days work. That should please the conservatives.

​

​The naysayers left over are just being brats. Go burn copies of GTA or something.

 

I can only assume that was directed at me, since I beleive I was the only one to bring prostiution up; and I was not taking a stance on it at all, merely interested in what people thought about Obsidian's idea of making sex with them have a concrete mechanical bonus in comparison to the oft-complained-about Bioware romances not having any mechanical benefit).

 

 

 

Aside: Given PoE's (and Tyranny's) mechanical function for sex, should we expect in PoE2, IF the Watcher can partake in a sexual relationship (and not necessarily a romnatic one...) with a companion, likewise a bonus? Or will that be solely reserved for ladies and gentleman of the working profession? (Is it, like, a class feature..?) Does the Watcher, in fact, confer a bonus to their partner on sexual union (which would obvously never have been a visible issue in PoE?)

 

It asks a whole mess of serious (and hilarious) possibilites, does it not...?

[Leeuwenhart]

 

Prostitution is legal in germany, the liberal bastion of the world. So check mate liberals.

​

​Women putting in a honest days work. That should please the conservatives.

​

​The naysayers left over are just being brats. Go burn copies of GTA or something.

I can only assume that was directed at me, since I beleive I was the only one to bring prostiution up; and I was not taking a stance on it at all, merely interested in what people thought about Obsidian's idea of making sex with them have a concrete mechanical bonus in comparison to the oft-complained-about Bioware romances not having any mechanical benefit).

 

 

 

Aside: Given PoE's (and Tyranny's) mechanical function for sex, should we expect in PoE2, IF the Watcher can partake in a sexual relationship (and not necessarily a romnatic one...) with a companion, likewise a bonus? Or will that be solely reserved for ladies and gentleman of the working profession? (Is it, like, a class feature..?) Does the Watcher, in fact, confer a bonus to their partner on sexual union (which would obvously never have been a visible issue in PoE?)

 

It asks a whole mess of serious (and hilarious) possibilites, does it not...?

I dont know about you guys... but i always get a bonus BEFORE having sex

 

You know whattamsayinnnn'

 

 

You only get a bonus with a pro. Bz that HER class feature. XD

 

If you do it once a bonus.

Twice a bigger bonus but some minor fatigue.

Three times still bigger bonus major fatigue.

Four times? You need constitution or might 18 and you get critical fatigue.

Only five times with resolve 18. And you get an injury.

 

Six?

 

Boy there is no six. The girl has to do laundry too you nutter.

 

 

If you made a female character you just get bonuses and go to 10x. Life aint fair deal with it! XD

Edited February 16, 2017 by Leeuwenhart