The US Election, Part XI

[Hurlshort]

"Winning with grace."

 

Like the Dems/Hill shills are losing with grace?

 

btw, he's right. Who knows what the exact number is but no doubt there was a ridiculous amount of illegal immigrants voting in this election. With all this whining about how Hillary won the 'popular vote' and all these accusations of Trump cheating to win he has every right to point out that it is the Demos who cheat.

 

 

Who cares, they lost.  I do think it is dumb that they are bothering with a recount in Wisconsin.  But there is no evidence that a ridiculous amount of illegal immigrants voted in the election.

 

We went over this whole voter fraud thing a few weeks ago.  There were handfuls of people in many states (Pennsylvania was the most common) that were either improperly registered or voted twice.  They are still a drop in the bucket.  This 3 million number is insane and not a good look for the guy who won and is supposed to lead the country in a couple months.

[Pidesco]

Trump is quoting Infowars in that tweet. Infowars.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Ah Bruce..it's about reputation and ego. Hillary will do anything to undermine her enemies, She is a sociopath who demands to get her turn. This is all about dismantling Trump's cred. That's all this is. The actual vote count is not her goal. Let me be clear: her behavior now is PRECISELY why she was not elected.

If they can delay the vote certification by demanding hand recounts past the date of the electoral college voting, it would cause all kinds of mayhem.

 

 

Who cares, they lost.  I do think it is dumb that they are bothering with a recount in Wisconsin.  But there is no evidence that a ridiculous amount of illegal immigrants voted in the election.

 

We went over this whole voter fraud thing a few weeks ago.  There were handfuls of people in many states (Pennsylvania was the most common) that were either improperly registered or voted twice.  They are still a drop in the bucket.  This 3 million number is insane and not a good look for the guy who won and is supposed to lead the country in a couple months.

No one ever checks though. And leftists are on record encouraging illegal voting. Also it's not just illegal immigrants who can vote illegally, it's legal non-citizens and felons as well.

[Hurlshort]

 

No one ever checks though. And leftists are on record encouraging illegal voting. Also it's not just illegal immigrants who can vote illegally, it's legal non-citizens and felons as well.

 

 

Except that they do check and you can find plenty of investigations into voter fraud over the last 20 years.  The allegations typically don't pan out.  It makes for great headlines, both sides can yell and claim they were wronged.  It makes all the losers feel better and the winners feel more smug.  

 

http://www.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/legacy/The%20Truth%20About%20Voter%20Fraud.pdf

Edited November 28, 2016 by Hurlshot

[Wrath of Dagon]

He presents no evidence. Top Democrat operative Creamer was caught on tape talking about massive voter fraud. That guy visited the White House some 350 times.

[HoonDing]

We will be hearing a lot about "nasty women" during Trump's twitter tenure.

Edited November 28, 2016 by HoonDing

[imaenoon]

I still see people saying that Stein is being used as a pawn. I've also seen conflicting reports about whether or not the Clinton campaign was trying to dredge this up. If Clinton were somehow behind this, I would definitely think it was a mistake. I don't know about the back room machinations, but I think I have a pretty good idea about how stuff like this plays out with the public, and I don't think this makes Clinton look good. Other than die-hard lifers, the Clinton campaign achieves something if and only if they pull off a literal miracle and overturn the elections in three states. It's not even a recount. They're going to have to prove fraud and have thousands upon thousands of votes tossed out to win, and that's just not going to happen

 

Assuming Clinton doesn't win, if there's evidence she's behind this at all, it only serves to reinforce what people already think about her, and that ain't good. Generally, you can trust the polls within a certain margin, but I've been saying since before the general election that this time was different. Trump is viewed more favorably by most Americans than Clinton. Listen here, I'm not trying to goad you guys. I'm telling you something you need to understand. Trump's unfavorable numbers were approximate to Clinton's in the polls, but the real number was a little bit off. In the polls, a little more unfavorable to Trump generally, in reality a little more unfavorable to Clinton. Not by a huge margin, but a little off. After the dreadful tape, it got worse, but the public is increasingly inured to 'ism' claims. Right now, it looks like Stein may well have come up with this ploy on her own, but if it's clear Clinton did, she's nailing home her primary unfavorable, which is distrust. Argue away, but I stand by my view on that and I've been pretty spot on about where the polls lie in regards to the actual numbers this entire cycle. I did, however, think Clinton would get her numbers high enough over Trump to win, and she almost did. She's truly a horrid candidate, thank goodness. So, if she doesn't win, she's about as close to a political done deal as anything I've seen. She can't recover from another scandal like this if she's involved, and that will come out. She probably couldn't anyway, but this would just seal the deal. Putatively, her team (and her lawyers) have been scouring the elections looking for a way to do this. As of now, I haven't seen substantiated evidence and, even for Clinton, I'd like to give her the benefit of the doubt until sufficient evidence makes it clear. Not court of law clear, just enough to make a rational conclusion clear.

 

Stein, however... if she's a pawn, she's the pawn who takes the queen. Clinton gets absolutely nothing unless she wins. Even if she wins, and I'm sure she'd like to, she's going to get a country where about everyone hates everyone else and the recount will only make that worse, and worse than worse if the public thinks about 100k votes can be tossed out after an election. Stein? No one would care about Stein if it weren't for this. She's already said the excess will go to Green party training. She's already surpassed her original goal for raising money. Where's the downside for her? She'd be a footnote if not for this recount. I don't care whether the Clinton campaign somehow colluded with her or not, she's the one playing them. At best, the Clinton campaign would be a willing accomplice.

 

As for people who see an avenue of attack against Trump via his holdings and conflicts of interest, this recount buries that attack. The irony that a recount muddying the waters so much that something that is far more of a substantive issue is mind boggling. I don't think even the conflict attack makes much difference anyway. The public won't care about the conflicts and there's nothing in the law that requires Trump to divest. However, there could be a way to prevent Trump and his family from actually administering his holdings while he is in office, and this recount and the 'throw accusations like spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks' approach is going to inoculate Trump against legitimate lines of attack. Don't die on every hill, people. Die on the hill where your death might actually bring a victory.

[Elerond]

 

At least we can say that upcoming president of USA is quite different compared to current president when it comes to tweeting things

[Meshugger]

Maybe Bannon knows something that we don't.

[Azdeus]

 

So much for "draining the swamp".

[Hurlshort]

 

USA public education is extremely bad.

USA private education is at the top.

So privatizing public education is a great idea and voucher program could be the answer for people who cannot afford education.

 

 

Yeah, no.  That is dumb.  It is the equivalent of moving out of your house because it is dirty.  You know, instead of doing the logical thing.

 

Do yourself a favor and look at how charter schools are a failed experiment. 

Edited November 29, 2016 by Hurlshot

[imaenoon]

I don't think there is some fundamental flaw in vouchers. The idea of vouchers didn't arise out of a vacuum. There are major systemic problems with public education. However, I think the best way to combat vouchers is to fix the problems and the push for vouchers will diminish. The video is horribly slanted, as one would expect from our screaming Turkish friends, but most of the facts seem to be right. The arguments don't reach out past the base, but... *shrug.* DeVos is a believer in it for her beliefs, not tax evasion.

 

Since she's a cabinet appointee, write, call, telegraph, and smoke signal your senator. Don't think that's wasted. Enough people call the senator and (strongly but not angrily or violently) state their view on the issue, the more the senator will take notice. Conversely, if hardly anyone contacts him, you're pretty much stuck with ideology, which makes it harder since Reid decided to buck a couple hundred years of Senate rules. I've been telling my Democrat friends why that was a mistake since before Reid actually went ahead with it. When the Republicans only need a majority for cloture on cabinet and Supreme Court nominations, you can thank Reid.

[Hurlshort]

 

 

USA public education is extremely bad.

USA private education is at the top.

So privatizing public education is a great idea and voucher program could be the answer for people who cannot afford education.

Yeah, no. That is dumb. It is the equivalent of moving out of your house because it is dirty. You know, instead of doing the logical thing.

 

Do yourself a favor and look at how charter schools are a failed experiment.

I disagree with the analogy. Putting money in failed public schools is like putting a bucket under the leaking pipe and wiping the floor instead of exchanging the pipe.

 

As for research:

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/knowledge-bank/2015/03/19/new-study-shows-charter-schools-making-a-difference-in-cities

 

I don't see a failure from this report and it's fresh - 2015. Also charter schools in nearly all countries are better than public ones. I never saw any studies that showed charter or private schools doing worse than public ones. If you have such I would check them out.

 

In my opinion instead of giving the taxpayers money to schools it would be far better to give them to students in a form of voucher or bon. This will allow for the parents to choose the best school for their kid and competition between schools to recruit and keep the students will only benefit the quality of education.

 

 

I'll get to the evidence a little later, but as wonderful as it sounds to have parents choosing the best schools and having competition for recruitment, in reality is just means you are going to create a much greater divide between the have's and have-nots.  The biggest problem in public education is not the teachers, the facilities, or even the bureaucrats running the districts.  The biggest problem is the parent communities themselves.  When you have a strong parent community that supports the school and the students, you will have success.  When you have a school in the inner city dealing with gangs, drug abuse, teenage pregnancy, etc., it is because you have that in the home.  Vouchers aren't going to solve any of these problems, and instead will take away the scant resources that these schools have to try and make a difference in these troubled areas.

[imaenoon]

The biggest problem in public education is not the teachers, the facilities, or even the bureaucrats running the districts.  The biggest problem is the parent communities themselves.  When you have a strong parent community that supports the school and the students, you will have success.  When you have a school in the inner city dealing with gangs, drug abuse, teenage pregnancy, etc., it is because you have that in the home.  Vouchers aren't going to solve any of these problems, and instead will take away the scant resources that these schools have to try and make a difference in these troubled areas.

Okay, assuming these are the problems, what is the solution? ...And is the first step fighting the DeVos nomination? ...Or can you come up with *gasp* a compromise?

 

I would submit the weakest point is the billionaire non-sense. You can get traction attacking her dearth of experience in public education as anything other than an advocate, but the best argument is to come up with a solution that has enough broad appeal to pass. ...And, if we're really talking about DeVos, what's the strategy for keeping her out of the cabinet, or is it all over except the grousing? Wife's a teacher of some three decades, so I get hell over this specific issue all the time, so I understand all about compromises.

[Wrath of Dagon]

 Vouchers aren't going to solve any of these problems, and instead will take away the scant resources that these schools have to try and make a difference in these troubled areas.

Except that public schools don't make a difference in those areas, they just warehouse kids until they're ready for prison.

[Hurlshort]

 

 Vouchers aren't going to solve any of these problems, and instead will take away the scant resources that these schools have to try and make a difference in these troubled areas.

Except that public schools don't make a difference in those areas, they just warehouse kids until they're ready for prison.

 

 

Did you feel good about this when you typed it?  Because it is terrible.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I don't feel good, but it's the truth, it can't be denied.

[Hurlshort]

 

The biggest problem in public education is not the teachers, the facilities, or even the bureaucrats running the districts.  The biggest problem is the parent communities themselves.  When you have a strong parent community that supports the school and the students, you will have success.  When you have a school in the inner city dealing with gangs, drug abuse, teenage pregnancy, etc., it is because you have that in the home.  Vouchers aren't going to solve any of these problems, and instead will take away the scant resources that these schools have to try and make a difference in these troubled areas.

Okay, assuming these are the problems, what is the solution? ...And is the first step fighting the DeVos nomination? ...Or can you come up with *gasp* a compromise?

 

I would submit the weakest point is the billionaire non-sense. You can get traction attacking her dearth of experience in public education as anything other than an advocate, but the best argument is to come up with a solution that has enough broad appeal to pass. ...And, if we're really talking about DeVos, what's the strategy for keeping her out of the cabinet, or is it all over except the grousing? Wife's a teacher of some three decades, so I get hell over this specific issue all the time, so I understand all about compromises.

 

 

I'm not all that worried about DeVos.  As a parent, student, or teacher, the list of authorities that you should concern yourself with go School > District > County > State > Federal.  A great school, of which there are many, will be great no matter what weird stuff gets done in Washington.  Is it a good sign that Trump put a billionaire with no experience in an actual classroom in charge of education?  Of course not.

 

Here are some articles on charter schools, as promised.  I'll tear apart private schools a little later.  As a teaser, let me tell you that on average teachers at charter schools make less and have less education.  

 

http://billmoyers.com/story/failing-test-charter-schools-winners-losers/

http://www.commondreams.org/views/2015/07/06/growing-evidence-charter-schools-are-failing

http://www.mercurynews.com/2016/04/16/california-virtual-academies-is-online-charter-school-network-cashing-in-on-failure/

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/29/us/for-detroits-children-more-school-choice-but-not-better-schools.html?_r=0

http://inthesetimes.com/article/18352/10-years-after-katrina-new-orleans-all-charter-district-has-proven-a-failur

 

The list is fairly endless, really.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Hurlshot

[imaenoon]

School > District > County > State > Federal.

QFT It's why inner city schools are so bad. I would suggest, however, we should add one more thing:

 

Family > School > District > County > State > Federal.

[Gfted1]

Well, the statement was designed to provoke a response-by-omission, but obviously it is devoid of facts. The vast majority of US citizens attend public schools yet somehow were not all in jail. Weird huh? Any truth in WoD's statement would be focused on the inner-city schools.

[Wrath of Dagon]

If a charter school is failing, the parent would have the choice to use their voucher in a fantastic public school, no?

 

Edit:

Well, the statement was designed to provoke a response-by-omission, but obviously it is devoid of facts. The vast majority of US citizens attend public schools yet somehow were not all in jail. Weird huh? Any truth in WoD's statement would be focused on the inner-city schools.

If you reread the exchange, we were specifically discussing "schools in these troubled areas" Edited November 29, 2016 by Wrath of Dagon

[Volourn]

"Did you feel good about this when you typed it?  Because it is terrible."

 

It is terrible. It is terrible that public schools are so horrible that parents can't trust the gov't's public schools to do the job taxes pay for instead are better off to go to private schools because they get the job done. Perhaps, instead of being so defensive, look at the facts. But, no, you blame the parents for  the public schools' failure. LMAO

 

Also, funny t that youa re so fearful of haves and have nots that you'd rather have EVERYONE be have nots.  That is like being jealous of the rich so you make sure EVEYRONE is starving on the streets. Instead of trying to bring others down you should be looking to bring people up to the higher level.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Volourn

[Wrath of Dagon]

To be fair, public schools aren't responsible for all societal problems, but the teachers' unions tend to worry a lot more about the wellbeing of their members than the children: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/06/16-new-york-teacher-accus_n_1409184.html

[Hurlshort]

 

 

 

 Vouchers aren't going to solve any of these problems, and instead will take away the scant resources that these schools have to try and make a difference in these troubled areas.

Except that public schools don't make a difference in those areas, they just warehouse kids until they're ready for prison.

 

 

Did you feel good about this when you typed it?  Because it is terrible.

 

What is? That he said it or that this is truth and nothing is done about it?

If your solution is the burden of fighting GANGS on PARENTS (sic?!) then clearly I'm baffled.

You sound like the old post soviet gov. clerks that claimed that without them the country will collapse.

Are you by any chance involved in public schooling?

 

 

 

I think you misunderstand the situation inner city schools deal with tremendously.  There are a fair amount of kids in these schools that are second or third generation gang members.  Even those that are not involved in a gang community are often dealing with other serious issues at home.  

 

However that does not mean we should just write them off as future prison inmates.  That's a terrible was to think and unnecessarily jaded.  People regularly do come out of these difficult schools and make something of themselves.  It's the best tool we have to break the cycle.  It should be something we continue to work hard to improve. 

[HoonDing]