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the thing is, when you get down to core problems with poe, am thinking the developers erred with basic vision.  unlike bg, the combat in poe were more complex and less forgiving. for the more casual crpg fan, poe combat were a slog from one brutal combat encounter to the next.

 

This is the basic and essential problem that I have with the game. The combat is a slog, and it's in virtually every battle you enter, and there are way too many battles, and leveling up doesn't help alleviate the issue. In the IE games at the low to mid-levels, if you were just a couple of levels higher than your enemies, you'd rip the vast majority of those enemies to shreds near every time, with only a few handful of encounters throughout the game where you wouldn't. This, in itself (and in my opinion), is a crappy system - battles that are too easy feel like a waste of time, and feel like something you should be able to skip over after a while. Enemies shouldn't be pointlessly throwing themselves against you if they know they're going to get destroyed in just a few seconds, but they do, and they do it over the entire course of the game(s) at way too high a frequency. It gets old after a while.

 

So what does PoE do to solve this issue? Through a variety of mechanic and system changes compared to the IE games (including not having levels mean near as much as they did in the IE games, not having a powerful spell system that allows you to mass disable/buff/damage trash mobs, making what would probably normally be considered "trash fights" many times more difficult than they would've been in the IE games, etc.), Obsidian made every freaking battle a gigantic pain in the butt to sit through...but didn't nearly enough reduce the amount of fights you have to endure through. I get it, you don't want so many trash mobs littered throughout the game that the player just immediately runs over - it makes sense, I don't really want trash mobs, either. But the thing is, if you're gonna make combat that much more of a chore to sit through, if you're gonna make every combat encounter that big of a pain in my butt, ya' also have to reduce the amount of fights there are...by like, a lot. Like, if you're giving combat that much gravitas, don't make it the main gameplay mechanic that your players are engaging with a solid 80-85% of the time they're playing the game (not accounting for just simply walking around in between locations). The combat system would be much more palatable if there were significantly less of it.

 

I also imagine the game would then be significantly shorter, too.

Edited by Bartimaeus

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I just wasn't hooked by PoE. Only complaint that I have. Which is why the game's been on hold for a couple months.

 

I just gave OPUS: The Day We Found Earth a half hour try, now that has me hooked. It has a cute little robot and everything.

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My worst issue with PoE was the rtwp combat. I just hate that stuff, because no matter what, I always end up with "mark all, click enemy, hope for the best".

"only when you no-life you can exist forever, because what does not live cannot die."

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I enjoyed the combat in PoE quite a lot, but there definitely was far too much of it. Well, it felt like too much of it anyway. I was never a fan of trash mobs at the best of times and honestly, I enjoyed encounters in PoE significantly more than similar ones in IE games where I just watched a bunch of character auto-attack for prolonged periods of time, but they're still massively lacking in variety. And I think that's their biggest issue, not necessarily their amount - but the fact that most encounters in PoE are more or less the same thing. You somewhat change your tactics as you encounter new set of foes in a new location, but that's about it. With that said, I kinda felt similarly about IE games.

 

On the other hand, rtwp RPGs are still fairly rare, and I for one somewhat dislike turn-based combat and love rtwp. So I suppose I can be quite forgiving when a game with this system gets released. Oh and the character development system is incredibly flexible. Obsidian really nailed that bit for me (I mean, just check the character builds sub-forum)

Edited by Fenixp
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Like, if you're giving combat that much gravitas, don't make it the main gameplay mechanic that your players are engaging with a solid 80-85% of the time they're playing the game (not accounting for just simply walking around in between locations). The combat system would be much more palatable if there were significantly less of it.

 

I also imagine the game would then be significantly shorter, too.

 

unfortunately, other than ps:t, the ie games were squad-based tactical combat games with rpg elements.  if you were making a game to be appealing to ie fans, am understanding why as a developer you would make combats frequent, 'cause +80% o' the ie gameplay in the bg and iwd games were combats.  the thing is, particular for ie fans who created super characters and parties, folks who re-rolled for stats and took max hps (is amazing how many folks ignore just how significant were the max hp option insofar as game difficulty were concerned) most combats were little more than an mildly amusing exercise in 1007 and xp accumulations.

 

poe combat and mechanics were different.  were no rolling for stats.  were no inflated hp/health option. were no You Win classes or kits or weapons. yeah, were still folks who complained o' poe combat ease, but such folks were likely having played the beta for +100 hours before ever playing the game itself.  particular at release, there were ways to game the game.  slicken were broken as were traps.  is any number o' spells that needed retooling.  ciphers alternated 'tween underpowered and overpowered with each build. etc.  the thing is, a very small % o' poe players who would recognize the inevitable flaws in any number-based rpg combat mechanics.  

 

a novice bg player could save-scum for character and companion max hp and give 18s in all prime attributes to his/her pc and it would take actual effort to die save for at level 1-3.  other than a handful o' encounters, use pause function in bg combat were choice rather than essential. 

 

bg2 combats did have a degree o' increased difficulty compared to bg.  but the average bg2 player had likely played bg... and perhaps ps:t, totsc, and iwd as well. the average bg2 player already had dozens o' hours o' experience with ie combat before ever loading the game.

 

obsidian made a game with 'bout the same frequency o' combat as the ie games.  unfortunately, they made combat a bit too unforgiving for many players... and story mode were too little and too late for many who were  initial discouraged.

 

...

 

am not sure what to say 'bout lexx rtwp observation.  is many folks who hate rtwp. nothing wrong with that.  the thing is, the ie games, all o' them, were rtwp.  obsidian were not hiding that poe would be rtwp.  the games most often mentioned as the inspiration for poe were the ie games.  

 

we don't like artichoke hearts.  we once got sick eating an artichoke heart dip. nowadays we can't even smell artichoke hearts w/o getting queasy.  guess what? we don't order foods with artichoke hearts as a main ingredient.  if we see "artichoke hearts" on a menu, we move on to the next option w/o a second glance.  Gromnir's behavior is reasonable, yes? to order food with artichoke hearts as a main ingredient would be a bit silly, yes?  order an artichoke frittata and then complain that the dish is ruined by artichokes would be making us seem more insane than most folks already believe us to be, no?

 

*shrug*

 

we prefer good turn-based to bad rtwp.  we prefer good rtwp to bad turn-based.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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I Hhated (capital H for maximum hatitude, second h is silent) the combat but liked most other things even though I thought it was missing that special something I don't what

 

A couple companions I couldn't take like Durance and cipher lady but most others I actually liked and enjoyed

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I finished XCOM 2, played a game called Stories which had some interesting stuff going on, and then moved on to the Deadpool game.

 

It's a bit on the dumber side of Deadpool, but has quite a few chuckles. And it's up to High Moons quality from their Transformer games.

 

How was Stories?

Unobtrusively informing you about my new ebook (which you should feel free to read and shower with praise).

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Yeah, I went there, too, through the desert of PoE disinterest, even disdain, abandoning three or four character builds after the first play. 

 

Somehow now it just works. Party-based real-time is a subliminal touchstone, I guess. I blame Cruel/Deceptive dialogue choices for the renewed interest. Which bodes well for Tyranny. 

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I tried a PoE solo run as a thief back in the day and failed miserably, only being able to kill the bear from the first wilderness zone through dumb luck, and getting slaughtered in the temple under the first town. Wonder if it's viable now with the addition of the story mode.

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Expanding my horizons a bit. Bought Metal Gear Solid V - The Phantom Pain on a Steam sale (together with the Europa Universalis IV DLC's that i didn't have yet). Played through the prologue and got to what I suppose is the actual start of the campaign. Good fun so far.

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The intro of MGS5 was a pain in itself, imo. Robbing on the floor with snail speed really had me there. And I think it took about 1 hour to get through all of this. After that the game became a lot better, luckily.

"only when you no-life you can exist forever, because what does not live cannot die."

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I finished XCOM 2, played a game called Stories which had some interesting stuff going on, and then moved on to the Deadpool game.

 

It's a bit on the dumber side of Deadpool, but has quite a few chuckles. And it's up to High Moons quality from their Transformer games.

 

How was Stories?

 

I thought it was very good. The combat system was pretty great and I liked the concept of choose-your-own-adventure where you learn a secret you can use in the next playthrough.

 

I can hardly believe I got the best ending in 3 hours. It felt much longer than that. I swore I played four hours just in the first night. And I still haven't seen 80% of the lesser endings.

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"Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater."
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I have to wonder how many months it's been since I began escorting Gorath to our urgent appointment in Krondor, still I have enjoyed every moment of our trip, even though i'm now probably over levelled and shy of challenge for the forseeable future and chapters.

Quite an experience to live in misery isn't it? That's what it is to be married with children.

I've seen things you people can't even imagine. Pearly Kings glittering on the Elephant and Castle, Morris Men dancing 'til the last light of midsummer. I watched Druid fires burning in the ruins of Stonehenge, and Yorkshiremen gurning for prizes. All these things will be lost in time, like alopecia on a skinhead. Time for tiffin.

 

Tea for the teapot!

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I tried a PoE solo run as a thief back in the day and failed miserably, only being able to kill the bear from the first wilderness zone through dumb luck, and getting slaughtered in the temple under the first town. Wonder if it's viable now with the addition of the story mode.

IIRC you can solo the game as all classes at highest difficulty, so I guess it should be quite possible at the very least due to rebalancing. It won't be easy tho.

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Yeah, I went there, too, through the desert of PoE disinterest, even disdain, abandoning three or four character builds after the first play. 

 

Somehow now it just works. Party-based real-time is a subliminal touchstone, I guess. I blame Cruel/Deceptive dialogue choices for the renewed interest. Which bodes well for Tyranny. 

due to a stacking bug with rogue reckless assault that took many months to fix, the first character with which we finished the game were a quarterstaff wielding priest o' wael.  deceptive & clever.  the han solo options? 

 

...

 

is strange that the ONLY priest o' wael specific dialogues available in the game were accessible only if the character had a high enough "honest" disposition. 

 

quick point o' clarification. use mere existence o' ie game features and mechanics to legitimize same/similar use in poe is stoopid and foolish.  the ie games did many things terrible.  the fact that the ie games had so much filler combats is a bad reason to be adopting so many combats in poe.  the thing is, we know that the obsidians did consider those aspects o' the ie games that were essential in poe. classes. rtwp. elves & dwarves & humans. etc.  am personal agreeing with bartimaeus that poe woulda' benefited from fewer combat encounters as such did become tedious.  even so, we suspect that somebody at obsidian calculated the combat encounter density o' the ie games and then used that as a guide for poe.

 

*sigh*

 

obsidian attempted to make individual poe combats more compelling than the ie counterparts. am thinking that for too many players, obsidian failed in their goal.  for the purists, poe combat were borked by numerous cain & sawyer (and other developers too numerous to mention) mechanics choices... though cain inexplicable avoids mention and blame when folks rage 'gainst the indignities that poe level'd 'pon the TRUE crpg fan. for the casual fan, attempts to make combats intense and visceral resulted in tedious and interminable. for a considerable number o' people, poe woulda' been better with less combat, but somehow the developers hit on the notion that ie combat encounter density were an essential quality.

 

we will also observe that in spite o' the fact that a noteworthy number o' poe combats were avoidable, crpgs (and the ie games in particular) has ingrained in too many players the notion that killing everything on a map is essential for Teh Win.  don't kill that group o' kobolds on level X o' the Dungeon o' Fractious Forbidding is cheating self out o' essential loot and xp, yes?   heck, we found our self doing similar at times in poe. first time we did skaen cultists under-temple, we slaughtered everybody.  well, truth-to-tell, we spent a considerable 'mount o' time getting slaughtered.  took a long time to total eliminate the skaen presence from a rather substantial map. after first clearing, Gromnir forevermore took shortcuts.  coulda' scouted and done shortcuts our firstest time, but we got our crpg training that teaches us that developers likes to put important items and quest triggers in remote map locations. stoopid.  regardless, poe has fewer essential combats than many would suggest, but am betting that many o' us nevertheless slaughtered every "enemy" in raedric's hold. tough slog indeed. more fool is Gromnir, eh?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir
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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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PoE hooked my right from the start and I really got into it once I realized sound combat tactics were a must.  

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PoE is cool, I suppose. Lots of flexibility, build options and more choice & consequence than many other RPGs, even if encounter design could use more variety and there was way too much combat in the expansions.

 

The narrative also leaves some to be desired, but it is still much above most games I played.

 

I don't regret buying it, but at the same time I find it hard to gather determination to push through parts of it at times. I have hope that PoE 2 will be better at keeping my attention.

Edited by DreamWayfarer
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The problem with POE isn't just the very frequent (but usually not that difficult combat, at least on hardcore), it's that you really don't get rewarded for it. You just find a bunch of junk equipment usually no better than what you already have, and leveling up doesn't feel particularly rewarding either. They really got the combat-loot-level up cycle wrong, which makes the combat and the game feel somewhat tedious. Compare that with how addictive that same cycle is in games like Wasteland 2 or Underrail, I literally couldn't stop playing those games.

Edited by Wrath of Dagon
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The problem with POE isn't just the very frequent (but usually not that difficult combat, at least on hardcore), it's that you really don't get rewarded for it. You just find a bunch of junk equipment usually no better than what you already have, and leveling up doesn't feel particularly rewarding either.

Eh, I disagree with the "no reward" part. The number of powerful build enabling uniques you only get after tough encounters is considerable.

 

I also wouldn't call the game easy on PoTD, but I am no minmaxer and I admit being on a area on the wrong level (which became even easier with the expansions) can change the perceived difficulty a lot.

 

And I also don't really care about games focused on looting and levelling up as rewards. Combat should be only one of multiple ways of advancing the plot, which should be the reward on itself.

Edited by DreamWayfarer
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To be fair I generally can't empathize with the notion of "I don't get rewards for gameplay, therefore gameplay is not rewarding" mentality, ingrained for the longest time in RPG players (and now starting to occupy MP shooters as well. Grrr.) Original Baldur's Gate gave you a lot of imaginary points for killing stuff, but for me, that didn't make the combat feel rewarding - I just progressed trough the game, kinda bored. Combat in Pillars is a lot more challenging tho so for me, winning more difficult encounters is the reward in and of itself, and if the game gives me entertaining new items, well that's fun progress on top of that.
 
Edit: Darn DreamWayfarer and ninja-edits saying what I wanted to in oh so fewer words.

Edited by Fenixp
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Having a tough encounter is also a way to work the cycle, if you can leave it for later and be forced to think about what abilities you'll need to get in future level ups to be able to beat it. POE doesn't do that as far as I noticed.

 

It's not really a question of an ingrained attitude, it's the fact that RPG's are designed to simulate success in real life through gameplay, where you succeed either through combat or completing quests. POE doesn't do a good job in delivering those dopamine hits IMO.

 

Edit: For the combat to be rewarding in itself, you need fewer, tougher, more interesting encounters you have to figure out like a puzzle.

Edited by Wrath of Dagon

"Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan

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wrath observations might have more impact if not for fact that he uses wasteland 2 as the contrast to poe.

 

perks and feats were only added to director's cut and they were not done particularly well.  is clear winner and loser perks and feats.  bad. previous to dc, wasteland 2 were all 'bout skills and attributes... and the skills and attributes were woeful unbalanced and lending themselves to ideal builds.  should be obvious that clear limits on viable and best builds reduces customization.  given how relative few actual customization options is actual available in wasteland 2, there is little room for bad skills and bad attributes.  nevertheless, wasteland 2 has far too many barters and mechanical repairs and shotguns skills, and is startling how little variation one sees in recommended attribute spreads for wasteland 2 characters.

 

oh, and wasteland 2 combats were highly repetitive.  the game were even more a squad-based tactical combat game than were poe, so is no surprise that combat were accentuated.  fine. that being the case, poe combats were not only more varied, but more complex compared to wasteland 2. smg available at end of game did more damage than those found at start, but they were essential the same weapons.  poe had far more status effects with which to contend and a greater variety o' the rock v. paper v. scissors concerns. weapons could do corrosive damage and stun, or any number o' different combinations. in addition, the vast catalog o' spells and abilities available to friends and foes necessarily made poe combats more complex. sure, complex is not necessarily better.  chess has a limited number o' pieces with limited move qualities that can only interact on a smallish game field.  even so, wasteland 2 ain't anywhere near as elegant as chess. is difficult to claim with a straight face that tactical challenges offered in wasteland 2 were superior to those o' poe.

 

find shortcomings in poe leveling rewards and combat redundancy is gonna be valid with appropriate support. to use wasteland 2 as a superior example o' level reward and combat variation is a dubious proposition at best.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps am not saying that wasteland 2 were a horrible game.  rather we specific not that when considering leveling rewards and combat design, wasteland 2 does not compare well with poe.  sure, some folks loathe rtwp so much that they cannot enjoy poe. even so, is no question that poe combat is more varied and sophisticated than wasteland 2.

Edited by Gromnir
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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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The thing with Pillars is (if I continue from my previous post) that I find it fun, but Baldur's Gate I & II did most things better.

 

I feel that you can make diverse builds in PoE. Stats items and leveling up is not as "fun" as in other games. Spells aren't super  exciting. But if you plan your build and choose the right stuff, you can make different types of builds with most classes. Items stats do look boring, but they are also important depending on what build you are going for.

 

When it comes to the writing, there are a lot of missed opportunities and I think a lot of things were cut. I also feel that a lot of people find the writing to be dry (if that can be used to describe it I don't know, it works in Swedish).

 

I do believe that they can improve things for a sequel and to me Pillars is a solid 8.

 

Less trash mobs, multi classing, more focused writing and maybe remake the attribute system and how skills/abilities/talents work.

 

___________________

 

Anyway... I didn't know what to play, so I grinded some achievements in Binary Domain. Then I played some Guild Wars 2. It's my guilty pleasure. (It's not even fun, I just do stuff to complete the world map %.)

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