Should the UK leave the EU?

[Volourn]

 Why should I care what people who  I'll never meet think about me.  There are many reasons why the EU  is a nazi organzaition. It doiesn'tt ake a genius to know why.. Look at  how they rule.

[BruceVC]

 Why should I care what people who  I'll never meet think about me.  There are many reasons why the EU  is a nazi organzaition. It doiesn'tt ake a genius to know why.. Look at  how they rule.

Do you mind going into specifics because I dont understand how you can compare the EU to the Nazi's 

[FlintlockJazz]

As a resident Brit finding out actual facts about staying or leaving the EU is like looking for the leprechaun I keep in my pants.  Nothing can be found that isn't pure bias or distorted beyond recognition.  Not entirely sure why its come up to be honest, and its divided the Conservative party quite badly, makes me think someone's brought it up as part of some agenda.  

 

My personal opinion is that we need to be all in or all out: its our prancing around wanting in on the good stuff but also wanting to remain a special snowflake that has destroyed our voice in the EU more than anything else.  If instead of a standoffish attitude to the EU we went and tried to take a leadership role in it we would probably find ourselves having a huge voice, instead we have UKIPpers bragging about how they stick it to the EU by not attending the EU parliament at all, instead going down the pub instead of voting for their country and still pocketing the money.  Yeah, that will really show the EU, not giving us a voice...

 

We need to be all in or all out.  All this coy foreplay is getting us nowhere, we need to go all in and ride that crazy whore or pull out, do up our zip and walk on, because all anyone on both sides is getting at the moment is frustration.

[BruceVC]

 

 

We need to be all in or all out.  All this coy foreplay is getting us nowhere, we need to go all in and ride that crazy whore or pull out, do up our zip and walk on, because all anyone on both sides is getting at the moment is frustration.

Well you can be committed to the EU but separate on certain issues, remember Cameron got all those EU concessions recently and now  he prudently  supports EU:In

[FlintlockJazz]

 

 

 

We need to be all in or all out.  All this coy foreplay is getting us nowhere, we need to go all in and ride that crazy whore or pull out, do up our zip and walk on, because all anyone on both sides is getting at the moment is frustration.

Well you can be committed to the EU but separate on certain issues, remember Cameron got all those EU concessions recently and now  he prudently  supports EU:In

 

Well, we could debate those concessions and their value, but the fact that we went to try to get concessions is kinda the problem: we shouldn't be fighting to be 'let off' from things, we should be striving to lead the EU!  Instead of fighting the domination of France and German agendas in the EU we should be putting our own agendas in, we could have as much influence as either those countries, perhaps even more, but instead we try to act like the rebel child of Europe, squandering our power on getting 'let-offs' instead of deciding the rules in the first place.  

 

We could be quite influential in a European Federation, and the issues affecting the EU right now is because everything is a half-measure: the countries are all, not just the UK, trying to have all the benefits of being in a superstate without actually being so.  That is the cause of most of the EU's problems, the member states are pretty much the same as the UK, wanting to be in without fully being in.  We all need to be in, to be headed for true union, or we should just call it a day.  I prefer the former, fear the latter.

Edited May 24, 2016 by FlintlockJazz

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

The core values of the EU -is nazism. I oppose those values as should anyone who believes in freedom.

So do you  mind naming a few points how the EU is like the Nazis?

 

I'm trying to understand this view

 

Here you go : https://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2016/05/21/greetings-slaves/

[Guard Dog]

Well here is a rotten onion for the stew: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/plans-to-create-an-eu-army-kept-secret-from-voters/

[majestic]

 

 

The core values of the EU -is nazism. I oppose those values as should anyone who believes in freedom.

So do you  mind naming a few points how the EU is like the Nazis?

 

I'm trying to understand this view

 

Here you go : https://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2016/05/21/greetings-slaves/

 

 

Ah, Hayek, the second worst thing to come from pretty Austria right after the little guy with the funny moustache.

Edited May 28, 2016 by majestic

[Raithe]

And of course, Spain is threatening to close the border with Gibraltar if the UK does exit the EU. Setting up for that potential land grab once more.

[Oerwinde]

 

Haven't finished it yet, but interesting so far.

[Hiro Protagonist]

Great video.

[213374U]

And of course, Spain is threatening to close the border with Gibraltar if the UK does exit the EU. Setting up for that potential land grab once more.

 

Really. If anything, these pathetic antics actually reinforce Gibraltar's position. Just take a look at what happened with FIFA admitting Gibraltar as a full-fledged member and the EU vindicating Gibraltar's territorial water claims -- in violation of the terms of the Treaty of Utrecht. If Spain hadn't become (even more of) an international joke, both would have been decided otherwise, as had been the case up until now.

 

You have to understand, the current (acting) government is under heavy attack, politically, but also judicially with several important corruption cases being investigated and some high-profile figures indicted and currently in prison. They desperately need to divert attention away from these issues, and pretty much anything goes. This is more an internal propaganda thing aimed at their die-hard voters than an actual declaration of intentions.

 

Regarding Gibraltar itself, I wouldn't worry about it up until the time when Spain is ready to take Gibraltar back by force of arms, as that's all that matters in international affairs in the end (cf. Crimea). And even then, I doubt anyone in their right mind would actually want a conflict with the UK over that rock. Slapping that assclown Picardo across the face, though, might just make it all worthwhile...

 

So yeah, not bloody likely.

[Raithe]

Eh, the way the reports are going the locals in Gibraltar really don't want to deal with the hassle of Spain tightening the land border and thus giving 10,000 people major delays in getting to work. The last time there was that kerfluffle, all the added difficulties that the Spanish did caused 6 hour delays in getting across the border. Which really does screw up your work day.

[213374U]

Eh, the way the reports are going the locals in Gibraltar really don't want to deal with the hassle of Spain tightening the land border and thus giving 10,000 people major delays in getting to work. The last time there was that kerfluffle, all the added difficulties that the Spanish did caused 6 hour delays in getting across the border. Which really does screw up your work day.

 

This mostly impacts Spanish workers in Gibraltar, but the problem is compounded by the fact that Gibraltar -like other British Overseas Territories- is a tax haven where they don't even pay VAT and unsurprisingly notoriously opaque in their fiscal and labor administrations. The last time border crossing restrictions were enacted, there was a fast track pass one could obtain to avoid these, but it was required that a passport/residence permit and work contract were presented. Out of ~7k Spaniards working in Gibraltar, less than 200 applied for the pass, because this forced them to declare earnings and pay taxes in Spain.

 

Undoubtedly, this is yet another political tug-of-war. However, it's not a land grab they fear in Gibraltar. It's the very real possibility of no longer having their cake and eating it too. You'll forgive me if I don't shed a tear for the plight of tax evaders.

 

Of course, there's also Andorra, which is another infamous tax haven. There is apparently no problem here despite it being in the spotlight as a result of some of the aforementioned corruption cases, mostly because it cannot be so easily made into a political weapon. Ugh.

Edited May 28, 2016 by 213374U

[Oerwinde]

Overall, I don't understand why getting out of the EU's regulations and freeing business up would negatively affect the economy.

[BruceVC]

Overall, I don't understand why getting out of the EU's regulations and freeing business up would negatively affect the economy.

There are plenty of potential negative developments that can occur if the UK leaves the EU

 

For example just not having the same access to  the EU free trade zone or having additional tariffs on UK goods exported to the EU would be economically detrimental to the UK?

[Raithe]

 

Overall, I don't understand why getting out of the EU's regulations and freeing business up would negatively affect the economy.

There are plenty of potential negative developments that can occur if the UK leaves the EU

 

For example just not having the same access to  the EU free trade zone or having additional tariffs on UK goods exported to the EU would be economically detrimental to the UK?

 

 

But as they say, our export into the EU is minimal, while our exports to non EU countries are much bigger.

 

Plus, the EU exports more to us then to other countries in the EU. So if they start raising the tariffs on those, it'll cause issues with the Germans and the rest who rely on us buying from them... Because we'll start looking at other non EU countries to get the stuff from if they cause issues.

You don't need treaties to trade between countries.

 

Also, other note. The biggest companies in Europe? The majority of them are Swiss. Guess what, the Swiss aren't part of the EU.

 

But the key thing that I think comes out, would you rather have a great economy, but absolutely no say in your government? Or would you rather have a potentially shaky economy, but some actual democratic government?

Edited May 29, 2016 by Raithe

[Elerond]

Overall, I don't understand why getting out of the EU's regulations and freeing business up would negatively affect the economy.

 

Because those EU regulations are actually there to lower amount of bureaucracy and free the business.

 

They make rule and laws to be similar in every member state and they tell how money, products, taxes, services, and people can move from one members state to another.  They are there to make it possible that if you can do business in one member state you can do it also in another with as little as possible paper work.

 

And because those regulations has cut so much of that red tape that there was it has created possibilities for behavior that some member states feel to be abuse of the system which has lead to creation of regulations that are meant to prevent member states and business to do those things which has lead to situation where some member states feel that EU's regulations prevent them doing what they want to do.

 

And then to answer itself Getting out from EU don't remove any regulations, although it gives illusion for country that they have more freedom to decide what those regulations are, but as those regulations are almost wholly about international things, which means that getting out from EU only means that those things need to be renegotiated and how much country has say so what goes in those negotiations depends quite lot how independent their economy is. And you don't free business by denouncing international trade agreements, but instead it will put your business in more difficult position as they need to adjust themselves to red tape that comes to move goods, services, money, and people over borders. 

 

Of course rich countries like UK are most likely are able to make quite good two way agreements with EU member states and general agreements with whole EU, but even their business most likely will get more red tape added to all their operations in EU.

[Darkpriest]

UK needs EU more than anti-EU crowd thinks, but at the same time UK needs EU less than what EU wants them to think.

[JadedWolf]

Brexit would be a huge gamble, and anyone claiming to know what would follow it is lying through their teeth.

 

I mean, sure, it could end very well for the U.K. If all parties stay rational, and there is an amicable split where there are no hard feelings. Favourable trade agreements between the U.K. and the E.U., and indeed other countries outside the E.U. framework, could undo any potential economic damage from leaving the E.U. framework. Scotland could be convinced not to hold another referendum as leaving the U.K. would be too much of a risk and Scottish oil isn't worth what it used to. Relations with commonwealth nations could intensify and lead to more trade. Etc. Etc.

 

Or trade could take a hit, as the E.U. is forced to make sure that the U.K. does not get any favourable trading position in Europe as they are forced to make an example out of the U..K. for fear of the U.K. doing so well that other countries want to leave the E.U.

 

Or it could start the collapse of the E.U., and a global economic recession from which the whole of Europe would never recover. Once one country leaves, another might. Then the Euro fails. Stock markets crash. People become even more nationalistic and paranoid and vote in autocratic leaders with rather funny ideas.

 

One good from the last scenario though. No more immigration. The immigrants wouldn't want to be here anymore.

[BruceVC]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/28/economists-reject-brexit-boost-cameron

 

Guys nearly 90 % of UK economists said Brexit is bad idea, lets listen to the experts on this matter ?

[Meshugger]

As we all know, the great majority of economists are always right in their predictions, and they have always the best interests of the nations they operate at heart.

 

If anything, the housing market in 2008 showed that they were right in getting a third mortgage because the rising pricing will always pay themselves back and the panama connection proved that they are ever vigilant in serving their countries and their tax laws.

 

It must be great to be in the club of economics. They are like the Paladins of our times.

[Gorgon]

We are still wheeling from an economic recession, weak growth everywhere. A paltry 1% in Denmark last year and the English want their freedom. Can't have that, too costly.

 

 

The scaremongers have oversold their point, lets just hope people understand that there actually IS a point and a serious cost to just picking up and leaving. 

[Chilloutman]

whats problem with low growth of economy, it feels natural

[Rosbjerg]

The problem is that the system needs an almost constant infuse of debt created capital to stay afloat, otherwise it 'oscillates' off into hyper inflation or recession.

It's gonna blow one day though - right now we're just prosponing the mother of all financial breakdowns. Seeing as we went right back to buisness as usual.