Does Aloth spoil the twist or am I missing something?

[Miquel93]

I've brought Aloth for the first time with me to talk to the Delemgan sisters in Twin Elms in my replay, and after finishing the conversation, Aloth comes to terms with his awakening. But, all of a sudden, he talks about the delemgan sisters mentioning the gods not being real:

 

 

As far as I know, and after doing the conversation three times choosing different options, the delemgan sisters don't mention anything remotely similar to this. 

Is this intended? Am I missing something here?

 

This is the big reveal of the game, it's really weird to have it mentioned somwhere before talking to Iovara, even if it's only talked as a possibility.

[Guest FlorianGh]

by the time I reached Twin Elms I always remove Aloth from my party Interesting find.

[Teioh_White]

I remember seeing that on first playthrough, (only one I've used Aloth), and just skimming over it. So, even though it spoiled the 'twist', I didn't even notice it. Which I think it's sorta the problem. Unlike say, DA:I spending much of it's time subverting the in-game lore, in PoE we haven't been submerged in the lore long enough something like that to seem like a big deal.So, when he said 'oh, gods aren't real.' I was just, 'ah, cool, kthx'. I was still in the 'I don't know anything about this game, so just accepting everything I hear as truth' mode.

 

If this comment had come in the middle of a 3rd game, after two games of dealing with Gods and all that nonsense, I would seized on it an instant as it woulda been a big deal. Instead of just picking the hilarious 4th option.

[FlintlockJazz]

There's quite a few things at the end there that kinda come out of left field.  Durance's conclusion to his questline after Teir Evron and talking with the gods assumes some huge leaps of logic in my opinion.

[rivmusique]

I posted it on the Codex where you asked earlier, but might as well do so here as well: 

 

It could come from the Twins saying that the Court of Penitents was for the judgement of souls that refused to acknowledge the gods. It's still a little strange, the dialogue with Aloth seems to suggest that the Twins themselves put forward the idea that the gods aren't real, when all they really say is "some people were punished for believing/saying so long ago". 

 

Still, I don't think it really spoils what happens later. It is just an idea, you already know that there were others that thought similarly in the past. Iovarra speaks with far more certainty and authority and even then it's only with the "help" of Thaos that we're fully convinced.

[Miquel93]

I posted it on the Codex where you asked earlier, but might as well do so here as well: 

 

It could come from the Twins saying that the Court of Penitents was for the judgement of souls that refused to acknowledge the gods. It's still a little strange, the dialogue with Aloth seems to suggest that the Twins themselves put forward the idea that the gods aren't real, when all they really say is "some people were punished for believing/saying so long ago". 

 

Still, I don't think it really spoils what happens later. It is just an idea, you already know that there were others that thought similarly in the past. Iovarra speaks with far more certainty and authority and even then it's only with the "help" of Thaos that we're fully convinced.

 

Yes, that's the only segment of their dialogue that I've seen even remotely approach to the secret of the gods, but it's known information for the player, and the leap from this to the gods aren't real is almost impossible to do, and it doesn't work well within the narrative (it should cause a response from the player if something as big as this was implied, not just an optional conversation with Aloth).

 

This stuff really confuses me. it's really difficult for this to be a mistake, some kind of dialogue nod that shouldn't be there, as this is the conclusion to Aloth's arc and has passed almost a year since the game's release. It doesn't seem to be something that would be easy to miss, neither by the QA team or us.

On the other hand it just doen't make any kind of sense to have that conversation there, none. If I had brought Aloth to the delemgan sisters during my first playthrough I would have gone crazy trying to find what had I missed, and of course, because the reveal is what allows you to conect the dots to understand the full picture, it would have probably ruined the ending for me, and I really liked the ending.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Miquel93

[Guest FlorianGh]

devs should fix this with a patch. It's a huge spoiler. It's something like the Nameless One finds right from the begining that he lived several lives before and that he will have to fight with himself in the end or that Ravel is in love with the Nameless One

Edited March 4, 2016 by FlorianGh

[FlintlockJazz]

Makes me think it was a change in the narrative of the main plotline.  That the sisters would reveal it instead of Iovara maybe or talking with the gods in Teir Evron would somehow make it clear.  If that's the case I'm intrigued as to what the original plotline would have been like and why they changed it.

[Luckmann]

There's quite a few things at the end there that kinda come out of left field.  Durance's conclusion to his questline after Teir Evron and talking with the gods assumes some huge leaps of logic in my opinion.

 

This. So much ****ing this. The whole Magran-was-working-with-Woedica felt like a completely random thing to me when it came up, and you get stuck in a conversation loop with Durance with only one way out: either you convince him Magran was working with Woedica, which feels like complete and utter nonsense, given what we've heard in game up until that point (or any other point, really), or the quest remains unresolved.

 

It makes it feel like there's a GM sitting there, telling you "No, you can't do that." like the worst kind of railroading, and then flat-out telling you what was going on in the background, even though the GM in no way conveyed that to the player in any actual way. I was a huge fan of Durance up until that point, and it just sorta ruined everything for me. No option to reaffirm his faith, no option to go for anything less extreme, just huge, nonsensical leaps in logic in a completely railroaded conversation, in a quest that can only be resolved one way.

 

Sometimes PoE shines, but a few times thoughout the game - being a Priest/ess of Eothas at the Temple of Eothas, or speaking with Durance as one, not being able to send the lord's niece back to the lord in Dyrford, Bleak Walkers just being blackguards-by-any-other-name after all, the fact that you *must* oppose Raedric, the fampyr woman at Heritage Hill being as railroad-y as can be, and the thing with Aloth just suddenly talking about things that haven't been said at all yet (and won't be confirmed for quite some time), and more - the game just flat-out fails horrifically.

 

I've been asking for a narrative/reactivity pass since day 1, and it's safe to assume that there's just not going to be one. If there was going to be such a patch, it probably would've been long before DLC #2.

[Ignatius]

Dumb question maybe, but if the God's aren't real, then who the heck are they? They were created by mortals? I was always confused by that point, because even after all this concluding of the God's nonexistence, you still had Woedica and Galawain telling you to do things for them.

 

I would enjoy a dialogue option to them, in which I say, "Ha! But you're not even real!" Then they just -- poof -- disappear. But I know it's not as simple as that...

 

I think all this talking to god's is because Zahua slipped something into your food.

 

You kind of a get a huge amount of info in this game in short spans of time.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Ignatius

[WorstUsernameEver]

Uh. I distinctly remembering the delemgan sisters mentioning the possibility of the gods not being real to my character near the start of the dialogue with them. I don't think I have a save from around that time, though.

[Miquel93]

Uh. I distinctly remembering the delemgan sisters mentioning the possibility of the gods not being real to my character near the start of the dialogue with them. I don't think I have a save from around that time, though.

 

I don't remember specifics from my first playthrough, but as I said, I didn't got that impression then. Definitely not in the dialogue as it is now.

 

Dumb question maybe, but if the God's aren't real, then who the heck are they? They were created by mortals? I was always confused by that point, because even after all this concluding of the God's nonexistence, you still had Woedica and Galawain telling you to do things for them.

 

I would enjoy a dialogue option to them, in which I say, "Ha! But you're not even real!" Then they just -- poof -- disappear. But I know it's not as simple as that...

 

I think all this talking to god's is because Zahua slipped something into your food.

 

You kind of a get a huge amount of info in this game in short spans of time.

 

The gods are creations of the engwithan, made from the souls of their people. They're real, they exist, and they have plenty of power, but their origin comes from man (or, well, kith). 

[house2fly]

Basically the gods are real, but they aren't gods.

[Teioh_White]

Hmm...the Gods are made from the souls of a dead, advance tech civ from the past, ruling over a backwards future. I'm getting some FFX flashbacks.

[White Phoenix]

As the others say,yes gods exist, they fulfill the function of a god (worship, powers) but their origin is unnatural (they were made by mortals of Engwithan culture with advanced animancy).

[Faerunner]

I wouldn't call it a direct spoiler so much as... foreshadowing? There a bunch of little optional hints you can find all over the game hinting at what ends up becoming the ultimate reveal.

 

For example, I'm in Raedrick's dungeon this playthrough, and I actually talked to Osrya for the first time instead of just attacking her on sight. She talks about how her research has led her to believe that Waiden's Legacy is not due to punishment from the gods or other such superstition, but that souls are being snatched and hoarded away somewhere away from new bodies, much like a biawic snatch souls away from mortal bodies and hoard them elsewhere. She doesn't "spoil" the ultimate reveal of Waiden's Legacy per se, but she does point to a root the player can follow through the game that'll ultimately lead to the big tree of events that have been happening.

[zered]

Dumb question maybe, but if the God's aren't real, then who the heck are they? They were created by mortals? I was always confused by that point, because even after all this concluding of the God's nonexistence, you still had Woedica and Galawain telling you to do things for them.

 

I would enjoy a dialogue option to them, in which I say, "Ha! But you're not even real!" Then they just -- poof -- disappear. But I know it's not as simple as that...

 

I think all this talking to god's is because Zahua slipped something into your food.

 

You kind of a get a huge amount of info in this game in short spans of time.

They do have all the power of gods, the difference is they are kith-made. They exist, they are real. Their origins are not exactly what the people think to be but that doesn't make their power anything lesser.

Edited March 5, 2016 by zered

[InsaneCommander]

IIRC when I spoke with the gods for the second time Durance didn't react about some revelations (Magran siding with Woedica, for example). So I replayed that part but left Galawain for last and it was different. Then Durance reacted.

 

I don't remember the details, so I'm sorry if I'm not explaining this properly. But this is something that could be corrected (if it hasn't been yet),

[Luckmann]

I wouldn't call it a direct spoiler so much as... foreshadowing? There a bunch of little optional hints you can find all over the game hinting at what ends up becoming the ultimate reveal.

 

For example, I'm in Raedrick's dungeon this playthrough, and I actually talked to Osrya for the first time instead of just attacking her on sight. She talks about how her research has led her to believe that Waiden's Legacy is not due to punishment from the gods or other such superstition, but that souls are being snatched and hoarded away somewhere away from new bodies, much like a biawic snatch souls away from mortal bodies and hoard them elsewhere. She doesn't "spoil" the ultimate reveal of Waiden's Legacy per se, but she does point to a root the player can follow through the game that'll ultimately lead to the big tree of events that have been happening.

 

It's not foreshadowing, though. He flat-out states it as a matter-of-fact as if you've had it confirmed. If he was going "Could it be that..." or "This has some startling implications, that maybe..." I think that nobody would've had a problem with it. As it is now, it largely comes off as nonsense.

 

He literally says "That reminds me of something else the delemgan said. About the gods not being real." The delemgan literally never says that. He could've said that he had concluded that the gods may not be what we think they are, or speak of his own conclusions regarding what has been said, but he doesn't. He says we were told the gods weren't real, long before we know for a fact that the gods aren't real. This is arguably worse than the old bug where Sagani says the name of Thaos long before you learn the name.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Luckmann

[house2fly]

 

 

Dumb question maybe, but if the God's aren't real, then who the heck are they? They were created by mortals? I was always confused by that point, because even after all this concluding of the God's nonexistence, you still had Woedica and Galawain telling you to do things for them.

 

I would enjoy a dialogue option to them, in which I say, "Ha! But you're not even real!" Then they just -- poof -- disappear. But I know it's not as simple as that...

 

I think all this talking to god's is because Zahua slipped something into your food.

 

You kind of a get a huge amount of info in this game in short spans of time.

They do have all the power of gods, the difference is they are kith-made. They exist, they are real. Their origins are not exactly what the people think to be but that doesn't make their power anything lesser.

Yes it does. Gods are implicitly creators or progenitors; the POE "gods" are just freakish weird kings with magic powers who were bolted onto existing systems.

 

Think of it like the difference between Obsidian making an isometric CRPG and them claiming to have invented the genre.

[falchen]

 

 

Dumb question maybe, but if the God's aren't real, then who the heck are they? They were created by mortals? I was always confused by that point, because even after all this concluding of the God's nonexistence, you still had Woedica and Galawain telling you to do things for them.

 

I would enjoy a dialogue option to them, in which I say, "Ha! But you're not even real!" Then they just -- poof -- disappear. But I know it's not as simple as that...

 

I think all this talking to god's is because Zahua slipped something into your food.

 

You kind of a get a huge amount of info in this game in short spans of time.

They do have all the power of gods, the difference is they are kith-made. They exist, they are real. Their origins are not exactly what the people think to be but that doesn't make their power anything lesser.

Yes it does. Gods are implicitly creators or progenitors; the POE "gods" are just freakish weird kings with magic powers who were bolted onto existing systems.

 

Think of it like the difference between Obsidian making an isometric CRPG and them claiming to have invented the genre.

 

 

That's not really different from most gods in fantasy though, hence why the "twist" doesn't come of as all that significant to many players I think. God just makes me thing powerful being that mortals worship.

[zered]

 

 

Dumb question maybe, but if the God's aren't real, then who the heck are they? They were created by mortals? I was always confused by that point, because even after all this concluding of the God's nonexistence, you still had Woedica and Galawain telling you to do things for them.

 

I would enjoy a dialogue option to them, in which I say, "Ha! But you're not even real!" Then they just -- poof -- disappear. But I know it's not as simple as that...

 

I think all this talking to god's is because Zahua slipped something into your food.

 

You kind of a get a huge amount of info in this game in short spans of time.

They do have all the power of gods, the difference is they are kith-made. They exist, they are real. Their origins are not exactly what the people think to be but that doesn't make their power anything lesser.

Yes it does. Gods are implicitly creators or progenitors;

Says who? I mean in our world sure, you are right. But we are in a fantasty setting. Here anything is possible and it doesn't matter that much to the average Eder. It's an interesting subject for the intelectuals of Eora but only that. I still don't know how that does their power any lesser? Look at what Magran did with Eothas, or Ondra and Abydon. Their power is immense and vastly beyond anything simple Kith can achive. Even archmages such as Llengrath or Concelhaut don't come anything close to the power of the gods.

Edited March 5, 2016 by zered

[Luckmann]

 

 

Dumb question maybe, but if the God's aren't real, then who the heck are they? They were created by mortals? I was always confused by that point, because even after all this concluding of the God's nonexistence, you still had Woedica and Galawain telling you to do things for them.

 

I would enjoy a dialogue option to them, in which I say, "Ha! But you're not even real!" Then they just -- poof -- disappear. But I know it's not as simple as that...

 

I think all this talking to god's is because Zahua slipped something into your food.

 

You kind of a get a huge amount of info in this game in short spans of time.

They do have all the power of gods, the difference is they are kith-made. They exist, they are real. Their origins are not exactly what the people think to be but that doesn't make their power anything lesser.

 

Yes it does. Gods are implicitly creators or progenitors; the POE "gods" are just freakish weird kings with magic powers who were bolted onto existing systems.

 

Think of it like the difference between Obsidian making an isometric CRPG and them claiming to have invented the genre.

 

 

Potatoe Potatoe.

 

In most mythologies, gods have been created by something or someone in some way, often by some other primordial or godlike force, but in fantasy settings, there is no shortage of man-made gods of varying scope or design. If we want to get really technical, gods are simply supreme beings presiding over some (or all) portion(s) of worldly affairs, or according to some particular conception. At it's most base definition it can be as small as a even an image of a deity, an idol, or any deified person or object.

 

Gods are gods because of what they are, not how they came to be or how they got there.

 

I'm not saying that the distinction is irrelevant, though. There's some startling implications for the people living within the world, and whether the gods are "true" gods or not. It's a warranted discussion, but objectively speaking, it's not inherently wrong to say that they're still gods or that they're not gods just because they're man-made.

 

The comparison between Obsidian making an isometric CRPG and them claiming to have invented the genre isn't apt, because most deities in most concepts, whether real-life abrahamic or pagan mythologies or flat-out man-made fantasy settings, didn't create the world; in most, maybe one or two gods or other primordial forces (commonly one of each, somehow) created the world, and then the other gods popped up through various means.

 

Something that I didn't see brought up in the thread was why Engwith created the gods. Engwith was, if I remember correctly, a deeply religious society that was technologically backwards but mystically and magically gifted, exploring the depths and structures of the souls and the immaterial universe, ultimately questing towards the great wheel, exploring the origin of the gods and trying to peer beyond the veil. And what they saw was nothing. No gods, no master-mind, no origin of the souls. In deep religious crisis, they saw no hope or meaning to the universe, so they created their own gods, to give purpose to creation.

 

It's entirely possible, likely even probable, that there is no such thing as a "true" god in the setting. If there is, not even the "false" gods born of the Engwithan sacrifice have seen or felt it.

 

And even this the children of Engwith tainted with their petty squabbles; the schemings of Woedica, the destruction of Abydon and his implied subsequent servitude to Magran, the Saint's War, etc. We don't know for absolute certainty that Eothas is dead, but it's clear that the other gods have no clue (or claim to have no clue) if he's truly dead or not, and it's not entirely clear why Eothas manifested as Gaun through Waidwen and marched on the Dyrwoods. If the implication that it was done to stop Woedica's and Thaos' designs before they bore fruit, designs that Woedica was expressly forbidden from pursuing for good reason, and Magran was actually working with Woedica (which I think is utter horse**** and the very idea of which is poorly conveyed to the player at best), I'm surprised all the other gods aren't completely and utterly losing their **** against Woedica and Magran at this point, seeing as how Eothas' war was warranted (if ill-conceived) and Magran may have literally murderkilled one of them, proving that even though they are godlike beings that have lived for millennia, they are vulnerable.

 

Assuming that all the implications made in the game (whether poorly conveyed or not) are true, it's downright odd that Hylea and Berath aren't actively trying to lead a murdercrusade against Magran, and that Skaen and Galawain hasn't started stab-eating everything and everyone within reach that is related to Woedica.

 

Personally, I like the idea that Magran was an unwitting accomplice to Woedica's designs, rather than an active pawn, which some have guessed at, but that hasn't even been hinted on at all within the game, even though it's a completely reasonable stance. The gist of it is that Magran did not support Eothas' not because she supported Woedica, but because she did not believe Eothas' claims, or in the Leaden Key/Thaos conspiracy/scheme. Magran then opposed Eothas entirely for her own reasons, seeing the events in Readceras as the creation of an unsanctioned, unjust theocracy, and the attack on Dyrwood as a way to expand his domain and sphere of complete influence.

 

This creates the awkward situation where the goddess of war, strategy and tactics opposes a war, whereas the god of redemption and mercy spearheads a war of conquest.

 

This also transforms that silence of Magran and the judgement of Durance to a silence of shame and regret over killing a brother, rather than the act of a petty and cruel w**** discarding her toy after breaking it.

 

And I think that even though much of this are reasonable leaps of logic based on what is presented in the game, they're not actually conclusions that are presented within the game very well, if at all. The player can guess at it, but the characters appear completely oblivious. This is what aggravates me the most about the writing of the end of Durance's questline. I can easily rationalize the actions of Magran, which could arguably soften the heart of Durance in his own judgement of his shamed deity, but instead my character has to make tremendous leaps in logics based on facts that aren't remotely presented within the game itself. It's jarring and - honestly - mildly upsetting, because of how good the writing of the character was up until that point.

 

Sorry if that got longer than I expected.

 

 

I still think that Eothas should be split into the twin god(s) of Mercy and Retribution, mildly unhinged from being scattered by the Godhammer.

 

 

Edit:

 

Says who? I mean in our world sure, you are right. But we are in a fantasty setting. Here anything is possible and it doesn't matter that much to the average Eder. It's an interesting subject for the intelectuals of Eora but only that. I still don't know how that does their power any lesser? Look at what Magran did with Eothas, or Ondra and Abydon. Their power is immense and vastly beyond anything simple Kith can achive. Even archmages such as Llengrath or Concelhaut don't come anything close to the power of the gods.

Not even in our own world, assuming we label "real" mythology somehow higher than any other "fantasy".

 

In Greek mythology, the world was created by primordial forces, from Chaos, from which Death, Darkness and Love emerged, the latter from which Love emerged, eventually creating Gaia, the Earth, which gave birth to the Sky, Uranus. From this collective concepts and beings kept emerging for various reasons, and eventually Gaia and Uranus gave birth to the cyclops, the cthonic horrors that were the hecatoncheires, and all the titans.

 

Only from the titans did the classical gods of greek antiquity emerge and became the gods of man. It's a whole narrative. Most other myths are vaguely similar in this. It's practically only in semitic, abrahamic myth where god is singular, truly omnipotent, omniscient, and eternally immortal and indestructable as a readily identifiable persona, separate from human (or humanizing) aspects.

 

Odin didn't create the cosmos, and he had to seek knowledge at the spring-well of wisdom, sacrificing his eye for a measure of omniscience. The weapons and powers of the gods of Europe were created by cunning dwarves, forged the marred and physically disabled Heiphastos, or attained through other means; no god could be considered truly omnipotent. Baldr was killed by an arrow of mistletoe, and many supposed gods of various mythologies die, sometimes repeatedly.

 

The idea that gods created the world, that they are omniscient, omnipresent, immortal, infallible, inherently inhuman but still readily personified, are practically an abrahamic idea, and only truly present - as far as I'm aware - within the religious myths of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. In practically any pagan or polytheistic context, deities are representatives of man, archetypes, or aspects of nature or the world, intended to teach or inspire in one way or another.

 

Again, there's a good argument as to whether the gods of Engwith are "true" gods or not, but for all intents and purposes, especially in the context of the universe, they are gods, manufactured or otherwise. The fact that they can be killed, that they are petty, vindictive little ****wits, or that they did not create the world themselves are all indicators that they are, if anything, just another pantheon, far more common than the idea of the opposite state of affairs.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Luckmann

[Vorad]

Regarding the above mythology lore I have to agree with Lukmann.

 

In poe we are in a fantasy setting as mentioned earlier. Look at it this way Bane, Bhaal and Myrkull were mortals, powerful and cunning but still mortals that in the end managed to inherit a portion from the power of a god hence became gods themselves. So through certain means a mortal was turned into a god. In poe the means are through the use of animancy practice on "masses of souls" with the details of the actual process being obscured and long forgotten thought to belong to the ancient Engwith civ. Again based on the gaming lore and the usual tradition of past successful fantasy settings I don't see a contradiction personally.

[house2fly]

 

 

 

Dumb question maybe, but if the God's aren't real, then who the heck are they? They were created by mortals? I was always confused by that point, because even after all this concluding of the God's nonexistence, you still had Woedica and Galawain telling you to do things for them.

 

I would enjoy a dialogue option to them, in which I say, "Ha! But you're not even real!" Then they just -- poof -- disappear. But I know it's not as simple as that...

 

I think all this talking to god's is because Zahua slipped something into your food.

 

You kind of a get a huge amount of info in this game in short spans of time.

They do have all the power of gods, the difference is they are kith-made. They exist, they are real. Their origins are not exactly what the people think to be but that doesn't make their power anything lesser.

Yes it does. Gods are implicitly creators or progenitors;

Says who? I mean in our world sure, you are right. But we are in a fantasty setting. Here anything is possible and it doesn't matter that much to the average Eder. It's an interesting subject for the intelectuals of Eora but only that. I still don't know how that does their power any lesser? Look at what Magran did with Eothas, or Ondra and Abydon. Their power is immense and vastly beyond anything simple Kith can achive. Even archmages such as Llengrath or Concelhaut don't come anything close to the power of the gods.

 

They're not beyond anything kith can achieve.  They literally are something kith achieved.