Attacks in Paris

[HoonDing]

Sand to glass.

[Gorgon]

I'm going to take a wild guess here and suggest that moderate muslims don't feel they have to apologize for people they don't agree with. 

[Volourn]

"die in US from right-wing terrorism than from Islamic one... "

 

Define 'right wing terrorism'. What exactly does that mean? Right wingers can't even agree what right wing is. We do know what 'islamic' is and quite frankly it is n't a pretty one. Yeah, plenty of good Muslims  but  know what? Can't worry about the good muslims as they aren't the ones committing mass murderers. It's why nobody discusses the good catholic priests which are the majority. All people discuss are the pedophiles.

 

But, know what? it is PC to bash western 'mainstream' religion but lo and behold you criticize Islam as youa re labeled racist  with any sort of criticism even though Islam is NOT a race.

 

There is a certain  semi popular comedian-talk show host who has bashed Cathoilics and religion his entire career and the liberals praised him ahrdcore. He made the mistake of pointing out Islam evils and sins and he was absolutely roasted for racism. LMAO

 

When Christian crazis were bombing abortion clinics people didn't back down out of fear or made excuses for them. Now we all hear is excuses. Pathetic. It does a disservice to all the  innocent Muslims when someone makes excuses for the warmongering Muslims.

 

 

"its borders are not porous (regardless of what the anti hispanic immigration republicans might say),"

 

Must explain the millions of illegals that easily sneak into the country.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Volourn

[Drowsy Emperor]

If you think moderate muslims are going to shed a tear over people getting blown up in France, then you're an idiot. After decades of interventions and wars, often caused by the West, they have just as large a chip on their shoulder as ISIS fighters. On any muslim TV station/newspaper, the order of blame for anything is as follows: Zionists, USA and EU crusaders. They literally have no other cultural enemies, and every muslim grows up in a culture where this is "common knowledge". Whether its actually true or not is not important, beliefs trump truth anyway. What remains is for the muslim individual to care or not to care about these things, or to do or not do anything them. Naturally most aren't going to do anything about it, but that doesn't mean that they think like you or tolerate your presence more than they must. Everyone who thinks that all of them are going to turn into starbucks drinking, iphone totting, gay friendly "progressive" europeans is a hopeless ideologue or a moron.

 

...

 

Always this same naivete: "its not all muslims, its just the bad ones!", as if there is any real difference or way to tell them apart on the streets of Paris, London, Berlin or Belgrade until you get blown to bits.

 

The bottom line is really simple, you either live with the risk or remove the source and the risk along with it. If your society can't function without cheap labor from muslim countries... well then, it sucks to be you.

[Ineth]

Apparently the attackers had even more horrific plans for the soccer stadium, but were foiled by the security guards:

 

"At least one of the attackers outside France’s national soccer stadium had a ticket to the game and attempted to enter the 80,000-person venue [...]. The attacker was discovered wearing an explosives vest when he was frisked at the entrance to the stadium about 15 minutes into the game. [...] While attempting to back away from security, [...] the attacker detonated the vest."

Edited November 14, 2015 by Ineth

[Darkpriest]

Show more support for Sauds and their radical Islam, or other such states around the world, who have no religious and cultural tolerance... nice way of committing a cultural suicide.

 

The problem with EU is that it is BLINDLY tolerant. I always claimed that you have to be tolerant for other views, BUT only if the tolerance is a both way street. If you show initial tolerance and in turn your citizens do not get the same treatment in other parts of the worlds, STOP being tolerant for those parts of the world. It pains me to do it, but to quote Putin: "you are welcome to come to my country, work and live here with dignity, but you need to understand that it is my country and my culture and respect it. We will not change it because of you. If you do not like it, you can always go back to where you came from" or some such. It bears so much simple truth, to which mostly EU countries are blind.

 

I suspect that next elections the nationalistic right wings will be taking over the rules in EU and we will see emergence of semi-police states with stronger focus on limiting migrations. So far it is the course of actions in the Eastern Europe, Hungary and recently Poland being the highlights of this.

 

This obviously will trigger even more domestic tensions in western EU, but it will either come out of this stronger with stronger identity and taking pride in its history and culture or it will drown in chaos and deteriorate.

 

Currently EU looks like a junkie who blindly injects poison into own veins and then hopes for a better life, but for some reasons his body withers and eventually dies.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Darkpriest

[Drowsy Emperor]

The EU is not really tolerant. As ktchong explained on page 2, EU tolerance is an extremely selective thing - and that can easily be proven with their approach to immigration. While asians and people from white christian orthodox regions of Europe, aka the non-catholic Slavs have to jump through many hoops to successfully immigrate, muslims get a free pass, even though a cursory examination of the criminality and risks associated with the former shows that they're are demonstrably lower than those coming from muslim immigrants.

 

Then there is the matter of internal tolerance. If you speak out against the Pride parade, multi-culti society, you're immediately branded a far right zombie Hitler, your career is destroyed and efforts are made to completely shut you out of your own society. Down the line you'll be punished more harshly for speaking than someone else is for being an outright criminal.

 

All is not well in the EU, but, as they say - the fish rots from the head. In that respect its not really the muslims who are to blame.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Drowsy Emperor

[Volourn]

The problem with Putin's quote is that it comes from a guy who believs that 'if you oppose me you aren't True Russian and must be destroyed' as evidenced by many of his former friends being murdered, inprisoned, and have their millions stolen from him if they 'wrong' him in some way.

[Guard Dog]

 

I won't be surprised if it comes out that many of these animals that struck tonight came in as refugees. 

 

 

I would be surprised.  These were guys with guns and bombs, they had resources and support.  ISIS doesn't need to send fighters through the refugee lines, they have better ways to get their crazy radicals on foreign soil.  The Charlie Hebdo attackers were born and raised in France.  

 

I am sure we will find out soon enough.

 

Told you so. (Sort of).There is just something about a lot of the people in that part of the world. You extend a hand to help them but the still hate you anyway. The US saw that first hand in Bosnia and in many other places. Helping these people is like the old story of the Scorpion and the Frog.

 

Meanwhile, nothing to worry anyone here: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/syria-refugees-u-s-centres-1.3308576

[Darkpriest]

The problem with Putin's quote is that it comes from a guy who believs that 'if you oppose me you aren't True Russian and must be destroyed' as evidenced by many of his former friends being murdered, inprisoned, and have their millions stolen from him if they 'wrong' him in some way.

 

well to play devils advocate here. at least russians seem to keep their identity and despite covering large area and having decently large population rarely you hear about muslim riots in their mainland cities.

 

The bombed plane is on Egypt's security.

 

I do not agree with Russian president on many things, but if not for the fact that our western countries set restrictions on them, he would be quite an effective leader.

[Volourn]

Depends on your definition of effective. Is his rule of Russia absolute? Absolute. However, in 2015, if you have set restrictions from other coutnries it means you have failed to a degree since this a modern country world. Russia doesn't exist in a bubble any more than the US or other countries do. Even NK can be argued that their leader would be more effective.. if other countries didn't 'set restrictions' on him and his country but obviously that leadership is 'effective' too since they are undisputably in power.

[HoonDing]

Start air dropping bomb-rigged goat fleshlights over the desert from tomorrow on.

[BruceVC]

Show more support for Sauds and their radical Islam, or other such states around the world, who have no religious and cultural tolerance... nice way of committing a cultural suicide.

 

The problem with EU is that it is BLINDLY tolerant. I always claimed that you have to be tolerant for other views, BUT only if the tolerance is a both way street. If you show initial tolerance and in turn your citizens do not get the same treatment in other parts of the worlds, STOP being tolerant for those parts of the world. It pains me to do it, but to quote Putin: "you are welcome to come to my country, work and live here with dignity, but you need to understand that it is my country and my culture and respect it. We will not change it because of you. If you do not like it, you can always go back to where you came from" or some such. It bears so much simple truth, to which mostly EU countries are blind.

 

I suspect that next elections the nationalistic right wings will be taking over the rules in EU and we will see emergence of semi-police states with stronger focus on limiting migrations. So far it is the course of actions in the Eastern Europe, Hungary and recently Poland being the highlights of this.

 

This obviously will trigger even more domestic tensions in western EU, but it will either come out of this stronger with stronger identity and taking pride in its history and culture or it will drown in chaos and deteriorate.

 

Currently EU looks like a junkie who blindly injects poison into own veins and then hopes for a better life, but for some reasons his body withers and eventually dies.

Yes my friend, I am well aware of this type of criticism towards Western institutions like  the EU ....but you are wrong, yes this current attempt to integrate the Syrians and other refugess  is misplaced but these are just lessons the EU has to learn. The EU will endure but I have no issue with kicking member country's out that don't follow the economic and political rules

 

Also its probably not such  a good idea to quote Putin considering the fact its exactly some of his policies and geo-political choices that have created the situation where Russia is in  a recession 

[BruceVC]

The EU is not really tolerant. As ktchong explained on page 2, EU tolerance is an extremely selective thing - and that can easily be proven with their approach to immigration. While asians and people from white christian orthodox regions of Europe, aka the non-catholic Slavs have to jump through many hoops to successfully immigrate, muslims get a free pass, even though a cursory examination of the criminality and risks associated with the former shows that they're are demonstrably lower than those coming from muslim immigrants.

 

Then there is the matter of internal tolerance. If you speak out against the Pride parade, multi-culti society, you're immediately branded a far right zombie Hitler, your career is destroyed and efforts are made to completely shut you out of your own society. Down the line you'll be punished more harshly for speaking than someone else is for being an outright criminal.

 

All is not well in the EU, but, as they say - the fish rots from the head. In that respect its not really the muslims who are to blame.

 Well you right about one thing, if you have an issue with something like Gay Pride parades in a place like the EU then its best Serbia stays out the EU until its views become more tolerant ...but I don't believe most of Serbia would state something in public like that 

[Chilloutman]

Lol and when it happens that you have to like Gay Pride to be part of EU? xD

[Leferd]

Hezbollah officially condemns the attack. Hezbollah.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/hezbollah-chief-lebanon-denounces-paris-attacks-184742949.html

 

Which shouldn't be surprising considering both ISIIS and Hezbollah hate each other more than they hate the Crusaders.

[BruceVC]

Lol and when it happens that you have to like Gay Pride to be part of EU? xD

You dont have to like Gay Pride but in the EU you cant discriminate against gay people because homophobia  is illegal and this is exactly how many people want it, I consider the tolerant rules and way the EU believes in human rights to be strength of  the  EU.

 

And you may have noticed that the EU is the place everyone wants to immigrate to....so they must be doing something right ? 

[HoonDing]

Of course they want to come to Mama Merkel. They get all the benefits without the need to adapt and contribute.

[Meshugger]

Hezbollah officially condemns the attack. Hezbollah.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/hezbollah-chief-lebanon-denounces-paris-attacks-184742949.html

 

Which shouldn't be surprising considering both ISIIS and Hezbollah hate each other more than they hate the Crusaders.

 

Hezbollah is 1) Shia and 2) fighting Israel, all while ISIS is 1) Sunni and 2) NOT fighting Israel.

[Leferd]

 

Hezbollah officially condemns the attack. Hezbollah.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/hezbollah-chief-lebanon-denounces-paris-attacks-184742949.html

 

Which shouldn't be surprising considering both ISIIS and Hezbollah hate each other more than they hate the Crusaders.

 

Hezbollah is 1) Shia and 2) fighting Israel, all while ISIS is 1) Sunni and 2) NOT fighting Israel.

 

 

Am I missing something? I mean, that seems fairly obvious.

[Zoraptor]

This will probably be a bit disorganised, but meh.

 

When it comes to refugees there are two main facets- the refugees themselves, and the (European) response to them. The specific problem is not with the refugees themselves, unless you're as empathetic as a slab of concrete everyone can understand why a refugee would want to come to Europe and accept that the civil war in Syria is a legitimate reason to flee the country. The problem is the disorganisation of the response, leaving the problem with Syria's neighbours for so long, the sheer number of refugees and especially the number of non refugees tagging along. Most of that is on the truly horrible formal response and Germany's idiotic open invitation which encouraged people smugglers and generated potentially millions of fake Syrian IDs- money for which goes either to the people smugglers or those who have captured Syrian administrative equipment, like ISIS- while functionally penalising those who went through proper channels by staying in Jordan/ Lebanon/ Turkey. Ironically, Germany and Merkel have done more to damage the EU with their open invitation than anything else, even their vassalisation of Greece. She'll be largely free of the consequences because it is Germany, not Greece, but the seriousness of the problem is largely her fault, indisputably.

 

Having said that, it's doubtful that ISIS would have to resort to refugee infiltration, they have plenty of foreign nationals who can just go home, and especially they have plenty of support from disaffected locals, the people who go off to fight in Syria in the first place.

 

On blaming muslims, it is about as fair as blaming christianity for David Koresh or Jim Jones. There's some beliefs there in common, but it's at very best simplistic to blame the overall group. The big irony is that ISIS themselves wouldn't even regard most muslims as actually being muslim. Not just the shia/ alawi/ ibadi and such, but also those (theoretically) very close to them in the sunni branch, if they aren't radical enough and frankly nobody is radical enough except them and their salafi/ wahhabi ex-buddies in the Gulf (who'd still be supplying them on the quiet if 'Ibrahim' hadn't gone Caliph). That's why they bring in their ludicrous laws to enforce 'sharia', because even most muslims don't follow it to their liking. In any case, all blanket labelling of all muslims does is alienate moderates, which is largely the aim of such attacks. The ISIS narrative requires oppression to generate traction amongst those oppressed and to set the scene for radicalisation. If you're making idiotic 'kill/ deport all muslim' like statements then congrats, Jihadi John and al-Baghdadi would like to pat you on the back and thank you for giving the desired response, and to quote the great philosopher Mark Henry from his retirement speech "You're all a bunch of puppets".

 

As for what can be done to fix the problems, well, it's hard given political realities. (1) Accept that your 'friends' in the Gulf are 'friends' rather than friends (2) accept that the brand of salafi/ wahhabi thought liberally exported by KSA is anathema to western values and utterly toxic (3) rationalise the refugee process (4) stop asterisking around with regime change, you haven't got an asterisking clue what you're doing; plus see pt 1 (5) just deal with it; stop wringing your hands and wailing when people get killed by terrorism, stop jerking your knee and learn to live with it; people die every day, and in the west far more die from practically anything else than terrorism- if that's the price for freedom then be willing to pay it.

 

Practically (1&4) won't happen because there's too much money involved and politicians are morons with delusions of competency, and (5) won't because politicians are opportunists who want excuses to accumulate power and people get irrationally scared of boogeymen more than more realistic threats.

[Malcador]

Sand to glass.

Where is the Big E when we need him

[Gromnir]

blame islam is wrong?  sure, but is also bordering on willful obtuse to ignore the fact that there is a correlation 'tween islam and extremism.  the polls, whether done by national media outlets or independent think tanks is... discouraging.  typical numbers show that there is 'tween 15% to 25% o' muslims that is embracing extremism, and a majority o' terrorist groups on international watchlists is espousing jihadist philosophies.  no other major religion today gots such frequency o' extremism.  is there extremist christian groups? sure, but ignore how much more common such extremism is with islam would be idiotic. christianity has its own problems, but david koresh and jim jones is notable 'cause o' rarity.  late 70s and early 90s, decades apart?  the villainy o' jones and koresh is repeated monthly and even daily in parts o' the middle east and africa. furthermore, muslim clerics is notoriously ambivalent 'bout extremist elements within the faith. yes, many muslim leaders condemn acts o' extremism, but just as many encourage. there is a religious correlation.

 

 

that being said, am thinking that causation and correlation is being used interchangeable, which is a frequent a mistake.  populations that suffer from poverty and political marginalization is far more likely to embrace extremism.  is axiomatic, no?  power corrupts, but is powerlessness that corrupts absolutely.  blame on religion is understandable when the terrorists in question is shouting jihadist dogma and when elements within the islamic faith has been legitimizing extremism for a long time. yeah, is stoopid and obtuse to ignore the correlation.  even so, such extremism typical remains a fringe element unless it takes hold in soil made "fertile" by poverty and marginalization. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Nonek]

This will probably be a bit disorganised, but meh.

 

When it comes to refugees there are two main facets- the refugees themselves, and the (European) response to them. The specific problem is not with the refugees themselves, unless you're as empathetic as a slab of concrete everyone can understand why a refugee would want to come to Europe and accept that the civil war in Syria is a legitimate reason to flee the country. The problem is the disorganisation of the response, leaving the problem with Syria's neighbours for so long, the sheer number of refugees and especially the number of non refugees tagging along. Most of that is on the truly horrible formal response and Germany's idiotic open invitation which encouraged people smugglers and generated potentially millions of fake Syrian IDs- money for which goes either to the people smugglers or those who have captured Syrian administrative equipment, like ISIS- while functionally penalising those who went through proper channels by staying in Jordan/ Lebanon/ Turkey. Ironically, Germany and Merkel have done more to damage the EU with their open invitation than anything else, even their vassalisation of Greece. She'll be largely free of the consequences because it is Germany, not Greece, but the seriousness of the problem is largely her fault, indisputably.

 

Having said that, it's doubtful that ISIS would have to resort to refugee infiltration, they have plenty of foreign nationals who can just go home, and especially they have plenty of support from disaffected locals, the people who go off to fight in Syria in the first place.

 

On blaming muslims, it is about as fair as blaming christianity for David Koresh or Jim Jones. There's some beliefs there in common, but it's at very best simplistic to blame the overall group. The big irony is that ISIS themselves wouldn't even regard most muslims as actually being muslim. Not just the shia/ alawi/ ibadi and such, but also those (theoretically) very close to them in the sunni branch, if they aren't radical enough and frankly nobody is radical enough except them and their salafi/ wahhabi ex-buddies in the Gulf (who'd still be supplying them on the quiet if 'Ibrahim' hadn't gone Caliph). That's why they bring in their ludicrous laws to enforce 'sharia', because even most muslims don't follow it to their liking. In any case, all blanket labelling of all muslims does is alienate moderates, which is largely the aim of such attacks. The ISIS narrative requires oppression to generate traction amongst those oppressed and to set the scene for radicalisation. If you're making idiotic 'kill/ deport all muslim' like statements then congrats, Jihadi John and al-Baghdadi would like to pat you on the back and thank you for giving the desired response, and to quote the great philosopher Mark Henry from his retirement speech "You're all a bunch of puppets".

 

As for what can be done to fix the problems, well, it's hard given political realities. (1) Accept that your 'friends' in the Gulf are 'friends' rather than friends (2) accept that the brand of salafi/ wahhabi thought liberally exported by KSA is anathema to western values and utterly toxic (3) rationalise the refugee process (4) stop asterisking around with regime change, you haven't got an asterisking clue what you're doing; plus see pt 1 (5) just deal with it; stop wringing your hands and wailing when people get killed by terrorism, stop jerking your knee and learn to live with it; people die every day, and in the west far more die from practically anything else than terrorism- if that's the price for freedom then be willing to pay it.

 

Practically (1&4) won't happen because there's too much money involved and politicians are morons with delusions of competency, and (5) won't because politicians are opportunists who want excuses to accumulate power and people get irrationally scared of boogeymen more than more realistic threats.

 

I have to say that I agree with all your first four points and cautiously agree with your final point, it's easy for me to say this but I was raised when the Provo's were conducting their campaigns, and so far they were indisputably more successful than any Jihadi has been in Britain, and yet the response was far less restrictive. Terrorism and atrocities will be carried out by extremists and the indoctrinated cowards and madman that they attract, this is just a facet of life, and most of us will not be affected by this at all, it is statistically an extremely unlkely occurence.

 

That is not to say that I do not condemn the attackers, commiserate with the dead and the grieving and want something done about this, I am sane and therefore I do. However what I do not want is unwarranted racism, governmental knee jerk reactions and the true enemy being swept aside in favour of easy answers. Of course our governments should do everything they can to protect us, but the answers on how to do that cannot be easily implemented, they require long term systemic change.

 

Firstly I agree, nation states should be left to their own devices, this may sound harsh but the alternative we have practised for the last few centuries of dabbling ignorantly has lead to far greater tragedies. Secondly immigration, there has been no infrastructure created for it, there has been no alterations made to society to accomodate massive influxes of foreigners and no consultation with the natives: This has not resulted in happy and harmonious communities of shining diversity and multiculturalism obviously, it has lead to ghettos and idle unemployable (often near illiterate) youth being all too easy prey for radicalisation.

 

These things must be tackled head on, and I do not expect that to be pretty or easy, but if we want a brighter future I personally think that is the only way, as it is these terrorists have a fertile breeding ground in the hearts of our homelands that we helped create.

[Meshugger]

 

 

Hezbollah officially condemns the attack. Hezbollah.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/hezbollah-chief-lebanon-denounces-paris-attacks-184742949.html

 

Which shouldn't be surprising considering both ISIIS and Hezbollah hate each other more than they hate the Crusaders.

 

Hezbollah is 1) Shia and 2) fighting Israel, all while ISIS is 1) Sunni and 2) NOT fighting Israel.

 

 

Am I missing something? I mean, that seems fairly obvious.

 

 

Nothing to you personally, see it instead as a pre-emptive strike against potential retards reading this thread.