Republican Presidential Debate

[HoonDing]

Pretty sad state of affairs when Donald Trump is the only sensible candidate left.

[BruceVC]

Pretty sad state of affairs when Donald Trump is the only sensible candidate left.

Dude even with your strange Netherlands view of politics you can't really think Trump would benefit the USA ? He will take the USA backwards 

[Namutree]

 

Pretty sad state of affairs when Donald Trump is the only sensible candidate left.

Dude even with your strange Netherlands view of politics you can't really think Trump would benefit the USA ? He will take the USA backwards 

 

Backwards? In what regard?

[Sakai]

 

 

Pretty sad state of affairs when Donald Trump is the only sensible candidate left.

Dude even with your strange Netherlands view of politics you can't really think Trump would benefit the USA ? He will take the USA backwards 

 

Backwards? In what regard?

 

From what i know of Trump, i'd say in every regard.

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

I see the Republican candidates constantly dismiss her as " irrelevant " but unless I am missing something once again I see the Democrats as having the real advantage here in Clinton. It seems to me that despite the last two elections the Republicans like Trump and Carson haven't realized that you really shouldnt dismiss and alienate minority groups. This includes not just the African American and Latino vote but the vote of women..and its the female vote that carries the most influence in the minority space and I'm sorry guys the Republicans still need to do more work to not appear to be condescending towards women and yes this is due to Trump and his comments about women

Well you realize that Carson is black right, so he's dismissing and alienating himself? Trump's attacks against some women came in response to them attacking him, not out of the blue as some would have you believe. You're likely right about the inability of Republicans to win elections going forward, and we very well may become a one party state, but whites don't vote for Republicans at over 95% the way blacks vote for Democrats, or even at 75% the way Hispanics vote. To pander to those minorities Republicans would simply have to become Democrats, and what would be the point of that? Although some blacks do seem to now realize how much illegal immigration is hurting them.

 

 

Pretty sad state of affairs when Donald Trump is the only sensible candidate left.

Dude even with your strange Netherlands view of politics you can't really think Trump would benefit the USA ? He will take the USA backwards

 

You're backwards.

[Leferd]

 

To pander to those minorities 

 

Dude even with your strange Netherlands view of politics you can't really think Trump would benefit the USA ? He will take the USA backwards

 

You're backwards.

 

 

Pot. Kettle. Black.

[Rostere]

 

Sorry, but usage of the pyramids as a granary is about as practical as usage of the F-35 as a submarine. You can store grain in a pyramid just as you can sit in a F-35 underwater but both of them are extremely impractical.

By what standard impractical? A.D. 2015 or B.C.2015? You do realize standards could change and practicality was not any concern when you have thousand of slave at your disposal?

 

I mean, a pyramid is a veritable mountain out of rock. The are narrow passageways inside it, and burial chambers which are tiny compared to the size of the pyramid. There are no "big empty chambers", that's a complete delusion right there. As far as we know, all of the chambers are either meant as traps, or were burial chambers. This leaves nothing to account for. Or are you saying that somebody built these massive pyramids with their tiny chambers for grain storage, only for later pharaons to use it as a tomb instead? Why the heck would someone build a pyramid to store grain when they could have just built a small house to store the same volume?

Narrow passageway and no empty chambers? Funny they were there when I last visited. How many pyramids did you visited personally?

As for the why. I would say the exact same reason they would build a massive pyramid instead of a tiny hole for a dead body to bury.

 

It is obvious - throughout all of history burial monuments to kings have been very common. However, absurdly inefficient granaries have never been observed as far as I am aware. Why would they build a mountain out of stone, with a tiny passageway to a chamber only to store grain in it? And why would all pyramids we have discovered thus far be tombs, with no trace of being used as granaries? Why would there be no historical accounts of the pyramids being used as granaries, while all contemporary accounts who describe their function saying that they are tombs?

 

You do realize that it is no more logical to say that a pyramid is a granary than to say that it was used as a house, to store water, to store papyruses, to store cats or whatever. It is possible to come up with any number of completely illogical, unfounded and absurd usages for pyramids. It will be as hard to convince a paranoid schizophrenic who thinks the pyramids were used to store grain as it will be to convince a paranoid schizophrenic who believes that the F-35 is a submarine.

 

 

Of course it HAS been disproved, F-35 is an aircraft not a submarine...

 

I don't see how this has been disproven more than Carson's claim, and they are about as sensible.

• You can sit underwater in a F-35, although this would not be practical for any purpose. Similarly, you can store grain in a pyramid, but it is probably about as space-efficient as storing grain in the Eiffel tower (can we agree that the Eiffel tower was not built as a granary?).
• We know that the pyramids were used as tombs (we have observed no pyramid NOT used as a tomb). Similarly we know that the F-35 are used as aircraft, we have observed none being used as a submarine.

The claims are equally absurd in my eyes.

 

 Thinking pyramids were granaries is demonstrably wrong for two reasons- they indeed only have small empty spaces, and they can only have small empty places. As the 'bent' pyramid shows they didn't have much engineering wiggle room for the empty, massive chambers a granary would necessitate. The other bizarre assertion was that Joseph built them. I can only imagine how he'd respond if anyone suggested the (actually quite plausible) theory that Judaism and hence Christianity were descended from Egyptian Atenism, albeit around a thousand years after the pyramids were built.

 

The odd bizarre belief doesn't really mean you wouldn't be a good president, though sticking with a bizarre belief in the light of proof to the contrary might. And at least it's a harmless belief.

 

I would actually say that the claim the "Joseph built them", through factually being very vague, is not falsifiable to a great degree. If we relax the claim to being "a Semitic-speaking person or a person of Semitic heritage helped design some pyramid", then it appears much more likely to be true. Then you can retroactively identify this person as Joseph. Of course, all of this hinges on not interpreting the Bible literally, in which case pretty much everything is unlikely to have occurred exactly as it was described.

 

There are also theories about Atenism being inspired by Semitic religion. To be honest, the only thing we really can say is that the two are likely to be connected in their development. But then, there is also the (probably more credible) theory that Judaic monotheism was inspired by Zoroastrianism (eliminating the need for any link to Atenism), specifically the pantheist beliefs of Cyrus the Great, one of history's most intriguing figures.

[Guard Dog]

The pyramid thing again? Still?

 

Besides I'm already feeling better knowing we have the F-35 flying submarine protecting our granaries and conjoined twins.

 

This whole thread is becoming very confusing!

Edited November 15, 2015 by Guard Dog

[BruceVC]

 

 

Pretty sad state of affairs when Donald Trump is the only sensible candidate left.

Dude even with your strange Netherlands view of politics you can't really think Trump would benefit the USA ? He will take the USA backwards 

 

Backwards? In what regard?

 

Oh sorry I assumed you Americans knew about the Dutch ? Everyone knows because they all smoke weed they think there political and social reality is lacking....yet they in the top 5 Happiest Places in the World ...but I suppose Weed does make you happy 

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/03/20/international-happiness-day-happiest-countries/25073055/

 

 

I see the Republican candidates constantly dismiss her as " irrelevant " but unless I am missing something once again I see the Democrats as having the real advantage here in Clinton. It seems to me that despite the last two elections the Republicans like Trump and Carson haven't realized that you really shouldnt dismiss and alienate minority groups. This includes not just the African American and Latino vote but the vote of women..and its the female vote that carries the most influence in the minority space and I'm sorry guys the Republicans still need to do more work to not appear to be condescending towards women and yes this is due to Trump and his comments about women

Well you realize that Carson is black right, so he's dismissing and alienating himself? Trump's attacks against some women came in response to them attacking him, not out of the blue as some would have you believe. You're likely right about the inability of Republicans to win elections going forward, and we very well may become a one party state, but whites don't vote for Republicans at over 95% the way blacks vote for Democrats, or even at 75% the way Hispanics vote. To pander to those minorities Republicans would simply have to become Democrats, and what would be the point of that? Although some blacks do seem to now realize how much illegal immigration is hurting them.

 

 

Yes, I'm well aware that the Republicans have candidates that represent all minority groups, also I have heard interviews from certain Republican candidates where they absolutely support and recognize the rights of lets say the Latinos

 

But we need to be realistic and honest, do you think someone like Carson resonates with the average African American? I doubt it 

 

But I'm glad you commented on what I said because I dont want to create this impression that I think I  know more than actual Americans about there own politics....that would seem very arrogant to me and I like you American members 

 

Why I said what I said is because I see the Democrats winning the presidency and to understand this and change the political trajectory the Republicans just need to understand certain social dynamics that are part of the American political reality ...and I think this is sometimes overlooked and yet its not hard to understand. And as a white male there is no reason you can't be happy with these changes ..and of course I want that. I am not one of these SJ people who feels the need to put his own race down. White males are important and very relevant and they should also be comfortable in a political party 

 

Also those stats are interesting you posted, they actually support my view and raise an interesting point. I see this in South Africa and other countries where minorities vote. I use to get very frustrated in South Africa by the constant way black South Africans would always vote for the ANC despite all the bad political decisions they made, I would think " well clearly people don't want a better government  "  but I kept overlooking something. I was assuming that everyone voted the same way I did and they should vote like me because it is logical and I was driven by what was best for the country 

 

But when I started  actually asking why people voted for the ANC the response was not what I expected " we feel other political parties are racist" now of course other political parties aren't racist but clearly this misperception was real

 

Now lets look at the USA, do you think that the reason African American and Latinos vote Democrat is because they pander to them? No I doubt it, I can guarantee you if you ask them the response will be something like " well the Democrats aren't racist " 

 

So now you have a reality to change and the first thing that has to happen is you can't have people like Trump saying " Mexicans are thieves and drug dealers and need to be deported " 

 

This type of comment may be dismissed by the Republicans but do you think that the  Latino community will forget this? No chance and this will cost them most of the Latino vote

 

You feel as a Republican you can't change this, you can change this if you understand people will vote on perceived views around topics like racism

[ktchong]

Unfortunately, the Paris attack may have helped Donald Trump to become the next US President.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Yes, I'm well aware that the Republicans have candidates that represent all minority groups, also I have heard interviews from certain Republican candidates where they absolutely support and recognize the rights of lets say the Latinos

 

But we need to be realistic and honest, do you think someone like Carson resonates with the average African American? I doubt it

And why would you say he doesn't resonate as you claim? And is it his fault if he doesn't?

 

But I'm glad you commented on what I said because I dont want to create this impression that I think I  know more than actual Americans about there own politics....that would seem very arrogant to me and I like you American members

Unusual on these forums, but appreciated.

 

Why I said what I said is because I see the Democrats winning the presidency and to understand this and change the political trajectory the Republicans just need to understand certain social dynamics that are part of the American political reality ...and I think this is sometimes overlooked and yet its not hard to understand. And as a white male there is no reason you can't be happy with these changes ..and of course I want that. I am not one of these SJ people who feels the need to put his own race down. White males are important and very relevant and they should also be comfortable in a political party

I can't be happy with those changes because I'm rational, and I've studied history, and I believe I understand something of human nature.

 

Also those stats are interesting you posted, they actually support my view and raise an interesting point. I see this in South Africa and other countries where minorities vote. I use to get very frustrated in South Africa by the constant way black South Africans would always vote for the ANC despite all the bad political decisions they made, I would think " well clearly people don't want a better government  "  but I kept overlooking something. I was assuming that everyone voted the same way I did and they should vote like me because it is logical and I was driven by what was best for the country 

 

But when I started  actually asking why people voted for the ANC the response was not what I expected " we feel other political parties are racist" now of course other political parties aren't racist but clearly this misperception was real

 

Now lets look at the USA, do you think that the reason African American and Latinos vote Democrat is because they pander to them? No I doubt it, I can guarantee you if you ask them the response will be something like " well the Democrats aren't racist "

The whole Democrat strategy is to pander to minorities, set races against each other and create racial strife and a sense of victimization to motivate those same minorities to turn out and vote for Democrats, using lies and propaganda as necessary with the help of their ally the Main Stream Media, just look at what happened in Ferguson or the Zimmerman/Martin case. It is also to replace native American voters with immigrants, legal and illegal, since they're known to vote Democrat by large majorities.

 

So now you have a reality to change and the first thing that has to happen is you can't have people like Trump saying " Mexicans are thieves and drug dealers and need to be deported " 

 

This type of comment may be dismissed by the Republicans but do you think that the  Latino community will forget this? No chance and this will cost them most of the Latino vote

 

You feel as a Republican you can't change this, you can change this if you understand people will vote on perceived views around topics like racism

Trump was talking about illegal aliens, and there are criminals among them, no doubt about it. http://www.breitbart.com/video/2015/11/14/trump-embraces-parents-children-murdered-illegal-immigrants/ Note the number of murders committed by illegals in that article. I personally knew one of the victims mentioned, Spencer Galvach, btw. We're tired of Obola letting in illegals to murder Americans and we're not going to stand for it. Large number of Hispanics want to be pandered to by us rewarding their friends and relatives for breaking our law, but we will not bring the rope to our own hanging no matter what progs like you think. Edited November 15, 2015 by Wrath of Dagon

[BruceVC]

 

Yes, I'm well aware that the Republicans have candidates that represent all minority groups, also I have heard interviews from certain Republican candidates where they absolutely support and recognize the rights of lets say the Latinos

 

But we need to be realistic and honest, do you think someone like Carson resonates with the average African American? I doubt it

And why would you say he doesn't resonate as you claim? And is it his fault he if he doesn't?

 

But I'm glad you commented on what I said because I dont want to create this impression that I think I  know more than actual Americans about there own politics....that would seem very arrogant to me and I like you American members

Unusual on these forums, but appreciated.

 

Why I said what I said is because I see the Democrats winning the presidency and to understand this and change the political trajectory the Republicans just need to understand certain social dynamics that are part of the American political reality ...and I think this is sometimes overlooked and yet its not hard to understand. And as a white male there is no reason you can't be happy with these changes ..and of course I want that. I am not one of these SJ people who feels the need to put his own race down. White males are important and very relevant and they should also be comfortable in a political party

I can't be happy with those changes because I'm rational, and I've studied history, and I believe I understand something of human nature.

 

Also those stats are interesting you posted, they actually support my view and raise an interesting point. I see this in South Africa and other countries where minorities vote. I use to get very frustrated in South Africa by the constant way black South Africans would always vote for the ANC despite all the bad political decisions they made, I would think " well clearly people don't want a better government  "  but I kept overlooking something. I was assuming that everyone voted the same way I did and they should vote like me because it is logical and I was driven by what was best for the country 

 

But when I started  actually asking why people voted for the ANC the response was not what I expected " we feel other political parties are racist" now of course other political parties aren't racist but clearly this misperception was real

 

Now lets look at the USA, do you think that the reason African American and Latinos vote Democrat is because they pander to them? No I doubt it, I can guarantee you if you ask them the response will be something like " well the Democrats aren't racist "

The whole Democrat strategy is to pander to minorities, set races against each other and create racial strife and a sense of victimization to motivate those same minorities to turn out and vote for Democrats, using lies and propaganda as necessary with the help of their ally the Main Stream Media, just look at what happened in Ferguson or the Zimmerman/Martin case. It is also to replace native American voters with immigrants, legal and illegal, since they're known to vote Democrat by large majorities.

 

So now you have a reality to change and the first thing that has to happen is you can't have people like Trump saying " Mexicans are thieves and drug dealers and need to be deported " 

 

This type of comment may be dismissed by the Republicans but do you think that the  Latino community will forget this? No chance and this will cost them most of the Latino vote

 

You feel as a Republican you can't change this, you can change this if you understand people will vote on perceived views around topics like racism

Trump was talking about illegal aliens, and there are criminals among them, no doubt about it. http://www.breitbart.com/video/2015/11/14/trump-embraces-parents-children-murdered-illegal-immigrants/ Note the number of murders committed by illegals in that article. I personally knew one of the victims mentioned, Spencer Galvach, btw. We're tired of Obola letting in illegals to murder Americans and we're not going to stand for it. Large number of Hispanics want to be pandered to by us rewarding their friends and relatives for breaking our law, but we will not bring the rope to our own hanging no matter what progs like you think.

 

You may be right, lets see in the election....but lets make a deal if Clinton wins will you at least  start considering that the Republicans need to work on there image? 

[Wrath of Dagon]

Republicans screwed themselves a long time ago by going along with the Democrats. The situation is probably irretrievable, but who knows, miracles happen. Image has 0 to do with it.

[BruceVC]

Republicans screwed themselves a long time ago by going along with the Democrats. The situation is probably irretrievable, but who knows, miracles happen. Image has 0 to do with it.

Lets forget the word image then, the point I'm trying to make is it seems that many white, males vote for the Republicans for valid reasons 

 

Yet for reasons mentioned I don't think the Republicans will win this next election. Now its not because white males who vote for the Republicans are redundant or should just accept " there won't be a Republican president because of the way minorities always vote for Democrats " ,,,no WOD this is just an excuse  to not  make some reasonable changes to the Republican ideology

 

Of course you don't have to make any changes but the Republicans can win an election...but the change needs to come from within 

 

But anyway lets see after the election 

[Wrath of Dagon]

And I already explained to you that to do what you want, Republicans would have to become Democrats, and there's no point to that. Perhaps the Dems would move as far left as Sanders, in which case I guess Repubs can occupy the space Dems occupy now, but I'm checking out of the political process before that happens. Don't forget Repubs still do very well in states and in the House, but really those are Chamber of Commerce Repubs, especially in the House, they don't represent us anyway.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Wrath of Dagon

[Zoraptor]

I would actually say that the claim the "Joseph built them", through factually being very vague, is not falsifiable to a great degree. If we relax the claim to being "a Semitic-speaking person or a person of Semitic heritage helped design some pyramid", then it appears much more likely to be true. Then you can retroactively identify this person as Joseph. Of course, all of this hinges on not interpreting the Bible literally, in which case pretty much everything is unlikely to have occurred exactly as it was described.

 

There are also theories about Atenism being inspired by Semitic religion. To be honest, the only thing we really can say is that the two are likely to be connected in their development. But then, there is also the (probably more credible) theory that Judaic monotheism was inspired by Zoroastrianism (eliminating the need for any link to Atenism), specifically the pantheist beliefs of Cyrus the Great, one of history's most intriguing figures.

 

Most likely Atenism/ Judaism/ Zoroastrianism shared a similar religious 'trope' as a base. I like the Atenism theory for the simple reason that it annoys religious extremists; they're all fundamentally unprovable theories anyway.

 

As for Joseph building a pyramid, it is more plausible. Problem really is that the only credible historic candidate would be Imhotep, and that mostly because you can hand wave his name to I(m)otef, he doesn't really fit anything else about Joseph. That's clearly well into simple belief- and not mainstream belief given most seem to put Joseph well into the 2nd millennium BC rather than 3rd- territory though, it's not exactly got evidence backing it up beyond that. If anything it's more likely that stories of Joseph building pyramids are borrowed from Imhotep's legacy with there being no link except the naming similarity.

[Meshugger]

I never realized that we had so many people here interested in sound structural engineering. The more you know and all that, i guess.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Meshugger

[Guard Dog]

We still on the pyramid thing? OK, I'll come back later.

[Rostere]

I never realized that we had so many people here interested in sound structural engineering. The more you know and all that, i guess.

 

Actually I haven't studied structural engineering, but I have taken a course in solid mechanics, which depending on which sub-area of structural engineering you are discussing is close enough

 

We still on the pyramid thing? OK, I'll come back later.

 

I am mostly interested in the psychology behind why people do not immediately discard Carson as a crackpot. Candidates such as him wouldn't be possible where I live.

 

I recognize there is some small amount of butthurt regarding which candidates to criticize. Just for the record, I was talking politics the other day with my GF and most of the time we were discussing whether or not Hillary was a pathological liar or not. It's just that those things are not very interesting for me to discuss here, with you. Hillary Clinton makes sense to me as she is not very different from the politicians we have got here and I have no real interest in reading more about her, but Carson is a complete enigma, I can't understand why he is treated like a politician and not like a mental case. Carson's statements are for me not qualitatively different from those of John Nash, who was forcibly admitted to a psychiatric hospital.

[Guard Dog]

Carson and Trump are viable candidates because all of the others except Cruz and Paul are "democrat lite". It's beginning to become a hard sell to people who value individual liberty and a less heavy handed government when all the candidates except those four are advocating becoming more like what their voters oppose. The truth is as long as they are presenting an alternative vision that appeals more than being subjugated by an Almighty Federal Government they will be forgiven saying things that might normally doom a candidate.

[Hurlshort]

Not quite sure how Trump, who says he identifies more as a democrat, isn't getting that label.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

How do Trump, Carson, and Cruz support individual liberty and less heavy-handed government? I can see that for Paul with his opposition to CISA and the Freedom Act, but Cruz voted for at least one of those(CISA) and the other two haven't really said anything about them. Did they speak out against the TPP or something?

[Rostere]

Carson and Trump are viable candidates because all of the others except Cruz and Paul are "democrat lite". It's beginning to become a hard sell to people who value individual liberty and a less heavy handed government when all the candidates except those four are advocating becoming more like what their voters oppose. The truth is as long as they are presenting an alternative vision that appeals more than being subjugated by an Almighty Federal Government they will be forgiven saying things that might normally doom a candidate.

 

So how come Cruz and Paul are not leading over Carson and Trump? And why do people prefer Carson over Trump (to me these appear similar in policies)? Out of all the people who "present an alternative vision", why do they choose Carson? You can say what you want about Cruz, Paul and Trump, but at least there's nothing I've read about them which makes me doubt their grip on reality.

 

To be honest, I think there is some kind of identity politics that plays a part here, I think that being at odds with scientific reality in your statements is something which automatically generates a lot of support among religious people, who can sympathize with struggling against reason. The scientific establishment and the political left merge together in their eyes to represent some kind of abstract ominous subjugating entity. It's similar to how the same people tend to believe in both healing crystals, ghosts and homeopathy even if these are completely unrelated phenomena. So if Carson says things which puts him in a situation which religious people can sympathize with, I think that can be a positive thing for his campaign to win religious votes - his religious sympathizers might never have invented the idea that the pyramids were granaries themselves, but when Carson gets criticized by archaeologists, they can relate to when they have been criticized by cosmologists and geologists for their statements on the age of the earth, and so on. It remains identity politics and not "real" politics because Carson is not about to stop funding for NASA or archaeology studies because they disagree.

 

Similarly, when Trump says something outrageous about immigrants and comes under attack by the liberal press, he will probably generate a lot of sympathy from that even if people do not agree 100% with what he is saying.

[Guard Dog]

Trump has a history of being against everything his supporters seem to want. How he has garnered so much support isn't something I can explain. As for why Paul isn't leading I wish I knew because he is by far my preferred candidate. I can easily explain why Bush, Kasich, Christie, Huckabee, Jindal, and (insert also-ran here) are where they are. Rubio has support because he is the least distasteful of the "democrat lite " crowd. Cruz, Trump, and Carson I guess it just comes down to them not being the "same ol' same ol'" in and environment where folks are sick of the same ol' same ol'.

 

Republicans voters held their nose and supported McCain even though they hated him. They didn't support Romney because they hated him too and for all the same reasons. They are both left wingers who believe in an all-mighty government that takes and spends whatever it wishes. If you choices are between that from a Republican or that from a Democrat why bother voting at all? I think folks are just jumping on to the other alternatives and holding on for dear life. That's my best guess as to why Carson & Trump are leading.

 

But to tell the truth Rostere this is a US election we're talking about here. If you are looking for reasoned and rational decision making you have come to the wrong shop.  

[Meshugger]

I'm gonna put on my radical thinking hat and wager that Trump's support comes from his ability to ****post on twitter like piercing knife and talk in memes.