FlintlockJazz Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Alright, fine, if none of you are willing to answer the OP's initial question then I will: I am this God person, or rather I am your God that you shall kneel, nay prostrate before and give me your adulation! Worship me now and pledge your eternal soul to me! "That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail "Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams
C2B Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) Sure, there are beliefs that are impossible to prove one way or the other. Whatever I might think about such a belief, I wouldn't call it a delusion. There are also beliefs that are clearly wrong but accepted by many people based on faith - such as: people who believe that the earth is 6000 years old, there was a global flood about 4500 years ago and everyone alive today is descended from the eight people who escaped on a boat, etc. I would put the latter group of beliefs firmly in the delusion category as they are contradicted by reality and rational argument. ^I've never met a young-Earth creationist, guess we don't have many round where I'm from. Same (And I'm myself and around christians daily) Btw, one of the things I'm constantly wondering is what attention genesis 6-9 is given in culture to represent christianity. Because, it's.... really.... not that important. There's tons of other things that don't really get any attention, but are infinitly more important. I guess its the Micheal Bay of the bible. Anyway, regarding PoE I agree with Nakia for the most part. Edited June 17, 2015 by C2B 1
Yonjuro Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Yonjurol what i think you are doing is replacing one faith or worship with another one. Historically this is usually preceded by a time of chaos, bloodshed. It may be brief but it still happens. Could be. I'm not sure what you mean here. To me the Real World arguments are moot as we are not dealing with the real world but with a fantasy world. The real gods of PoE are the developers and they will be the ones who decide the fate of that world. My hope is that they will not chicken out and go for an easy answer. Fair enough. The point I was trying to make with those examples is that since the PoE gods are powerful, what people in the PoE believe about them doesn't matter that much. As you pointed out, these are real beings that can hurt anyone who doesn't do what they want. 1
Yonjuro Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Sure, there are beliefs that are impossible to prove one way or the other. Whatever I might think about such a belief, I wouldn't call it a delusion. There are also beliefs that are clearly wrong but accepted by many people based on faith - such as: people who believe that the earth is 6000 years old, there was a global flood about 4500 years ago and everyone alive today is descended from the eight people who escaped on a boat, etc. I would put the latter group of beliefs firmly in the delusion category as they are contradicted by reality and rational argument. ^I've never met a young-Earth creationist, guess we don't have many round where I'm from. Same (And I'm myself and around christians daily) Yes, I agree that YECs are a very small minority (and it's encouraging that you and SW have never come across one). Certainly most of the major sects of Christianity accept the age of the earth and the theory of evolution by natural selection. I think the reason why there are still YECs (and that they are very loud about it) is that they feel that it is central to their beliefs for Adam and Eve to have been literal people. Btw, one of the things I'm constantly wondering is what attention genesis 6-9 is given in culture to represent christianity. Because, it's.... really.... not that important. There's tons of other things that don't really get any attention, but are infinitly more important. The reason it comes up so often is because YECs are actively attempting to get this old myth taught in U.S. pubic school science classes as a fact (Google for 'Ken Ham Ark Encounter' for one example if you are curious). I promise that if people like you (that is, non-delusional Christians) can convince people like Ken Ham (Christian flavored raving lunatics) to stop trying to undermine science education, people like me will stop bringing it up. We don't really care what you (or the Ken Hams of the world) believe if doesn't screw things up here in reality.
Amentep Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) ....I see - it's the "despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument," bit that's the distinction for me... Sure, there are beliefs that are impossible to prove one way or the other. Whatever I might think about such a belief, I wouldn't call it a delusion. There are also beliefs that are clearly wrong but accepted by many people based on faith - such as: people who believe that the earth is 6000 years old, there was a global flood about 4500 years ago and everyone alive today is descended from the eight people who escaped on a boat, etc. I would put the latter group of beliefs firmly in the delusion category as they are contradicted by reality and rational argument. Not that I believe the young earth theory, but logically, if an all-powerful god created the universe, then that same all-powerful god created time (it being a function of the universe), which means dating anything accurate is dependent on whether god intervened (ie god could manipulate time), which would - presumably - be impossible to detect without god intervening to say "yeah, I did it". Therefore, the earth could date to 4.5 billion years, and yet also be 6000 years old at the same time, because god intervened. I've never understood people who believe in an all powerful god fear the data of science - it seems to so devalue the ability of god who they claim to be all powerful, really. One of the interesting things to me about PoE's setup is that yes the pantheon we're introduced to are gods created by man, but while the Engwithans - we're told - could find no proof a real god (or gods) existing, it doesn't remove the idea that there's actually other gods out there that the Engwithans could never see. Edited June 17, 2015 by Amentep 2 I cannot - yet I must. How do you calculate that? At what point on the graph do "must" and "cannot" meet? Yet I must - but I cannot! ~ Ro-Man
Yonjuro Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) ... Not that I believe the young earth theory, but logically, if an all-powerful god created the universe, then that same all-powerful god created time (it being a function of the universe), which means dating anything accurate is dependent on whether god intervened (ie god could manipulate time), which would - presumably - be impossible to detect without god intervening to say "yeah, I did it". Therefore, the earth could date to 4.5 billion years, and yet also be 6000 years old at the same time, because god intervened. I've never understood people who believe in an all powerful god fear the data of science - it seems to so devalue the ability of god who they claim to be all powerful, really. One of the interesting things to me about PoE's setup is that yes the pantheon we're introduced to are gods created by man, but while the Engwithans - we're told - could find no proof a real god (or gods) existing, it doesn't remove the idea that there's actually other gods out there that the Engwithans could never see. Yes - that is one of the most interesting parts of the PoE world. The Engwithans stopped looking and made something up. The plot twist in the sequel might involve actual gods of the world who aren't happy about the invented ones. Edited June 17, 2015 by Yonjuro 1
majestic Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Yes - that is one of the most interesting parts of the PoE world. The Engwithans stopped looking and made something up. The plot twist in the sequel might involve actual gods of the world who aren't happy about the invented ones. And they are secretly represented by Wael. 2 No mind to think. No will to break. No voice to cry suffering.
Yonjuro Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Yes - that is one of the most interesting parts of the PoE world. The Engwithans stopped looking and made something up. The plot twist in the sequel might involve actual gods of the world who aren't happy about the invented ones. And they are secretly represented by Wael. But you don't find out until act 3. 1
Nakia Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 I hope not bringing in a god not created by mortals would to me diminish the whole story. Although if Wael were that god himself and he is the god of knowledge both reveled and hidden maybe he could be waiting for someone to discover the hidden knowledge. The twist could be in the soul essence itself. I have but one enemy: myself - Drow saying
SlayerDorian Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 It is perfectly valid to draw parallels to the real world between a fantasy world and the real world. A story would not be as good if it did not relate to the real world in a major way. Generally a fantasy world is very much based on the real world, just with some changes. If there were too many changes all at once then people would not be able to connect to the story, and then stop reading/playing. The philosophical questions presented in PoE apply to the real world, and I'm pretty sure that is one of the main points. What if you received evidence that disproved-ish much of what you believe in. How would you react? What if the whole world received this evidence, how would they react? It being a fantasy world is good plausible deniability if someone decided to start a holy war against the devs, sure. But it is no reason to write off valid philosophical questions that apply all the same.
Silent Winter Posted June 18, 2015 Posted June 18, 2015 ^The question is fine. I just think it'd take a longer narrative to deal with it properly (especially as we get all this info in the last little bit of the game) - perhaps the sequel will go into it more _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *Casts Nature's Terror* , *Casts Firebug* , *Casts Rot-Skulls* , *Casts Garden of Life* *Spirit-shifts to cat form*
Gromnir Posted June 22, 2015 Posted June 22, 2015 ... Not that I believe the young earth theory, but logically, if an all-powerful god created the universe, then that same all-powerful god created time (it being a function of the universe), which means dating anything accurate is dependent on whether god intervened (ie god could manipulate time), which would - presumably - be impossible to detect without god intervening to say "yeah, I did it". Therefore, the earth could date to 4.5 billion years, and yet also be 6000 years old at the same time, because god intervened. I've never understood people who believe in an all powerful god fear the data of science - it seems to so devalue the ability of god who they claim to be all powerful, really. One of the interesting things to me about PoE's setup is that yes the pantheon we're introduced to are gods created by man, but while the Engwithans - we're told - could find no proof a real god (or gods) existing, it doesn't remove the idea that there's actually other gods out there that the Engwithans could never see. Yes - that is one of the most interesting parts of the PoE world. The Engwithans stopped looking and made something up. The plot twist in the sequel might involve actual gods of the world who aren't happy about the invented ones. just saw this, so apologies for a reply coming so late, but we would hate such a direction for the plot. obsidian managed to get rid o' the traditional fantasy world pantheon by making 'em human constructs. add more gods simple sends us back to proverbial square one, no? if it were Gromnir writing, we would explore the eothas death a bit more. perhaps the gods were created not so much as individuals but as a system and the system is currently broken. unfortunately, real world calamity is resulting from the failed divine system. eventual, the player gets a chance to deal with the eothas problem in a variety o' ways. fix system, effective replacing eothas with a new deity construct. another option would be to fix w/o a new eothas; make so other deities can absorb the increased load. end system, terminating the power o' the gods... which wouldn't necessarily end belief in those gods. etc. *shrug* the thing is, we don't wanna know what obsidian is gonna do. we want for obsidian to do something we do not foresee, but having reached the conclusion and looking back on the entirety o' the story, we only then realize how all the myriad pieces finally fit together and we recognize that the way obsidian did were inspired. in any event, we don't want a turtles all the way down problem by adding additional deities. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
tinysalamander Posted June 22, 2015 Posted June 22, 2015 Speaking of gods and real world. Apparently, according to some poll (which I couldn't find, admittedly) about 30% of those who identify themselves as Christians in Russia do not believe that god exists. Pillars of Bugothas
Tennisgolfboll Posted June 23, 2015 Posted June 23, 2015 (edited) ....I see - it's the "despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument," bit that's the distinction for me... Sure, there are beliefs that are impossible to prove one way or the other. Whatever I might think about such a belief, I wouldn't call it a delusion. There are also beliefs that are clearly wrong but accepted by many people based on faith - such as: people who believe that the earth is 6000 years old, there was a global flood about 4500 years ago and everyone alive today is descended from the eight people who escaped on a boat, etc. I would put the latter group of beliefs firmly in the delusion category as they are contradicted by reality and rational argument. Not that I believe the young earth theory, but logically, if an all-powerful god created the universe, then that same all-powerful god created time (it being a function of the universe), which means dating anything accurate is dependent on whether god intervened (ie god could manipulate time), which would - presumably - be impossible to detect without god intervening to say "yeah, I did it". Therefore, the earth could date to 4.5 billion years, and yet also be 6000 years old at the same time, because god intervened. I've never understood people who believe in an all powerful god fear the data of science - it seems to so devalue the ability of god who they claim to be all powerful, really. One of the interesting things to me about PoE's setup is that yes the pantheon we're introduced to are gods created by man, but while the Engwithans - we're told - could find no proof a real god (or gods) existing, it doesn't remove the idea that there's actually other gods out there that the Engwithans could never see. Some basic good philosofy here. Indeed God is Allmighty and any "proof" in a statement that He in any way could ever be wrong is of course false. This is why the scientific theories are replaced all the time. Lies dont stand the test of time. Which is why evolution theory that darwin had holds very little with evolution theory today. And that of today is allready fading and will be replaced by new lies. Who would know how and when the world started: 10 famous scientists who lived for 50 years with the knowledge and intelligence of 10 men, or God who knows all things (past, present and future) ? But the basic evidence shows God : in all of vast space we see there is only life on earth. 1 meter of rainforest has more life than 10 billion x billion miles of stars, planets etc : all humans can by dna be traced to one mother and one father : big bang has despite billions of dollars trying to prove it, stayed nothing more than a fantasy Only those, who in desperate measure want to deny God can come to a conclusion to do so. God is evident in everything. Not to mention the literal hundreds of prophecies who predates Christ by 4000-500 years all happen. If one reads and understands the bible then one knows that would be impossible to all happen at once without God. Edited June 23, 2015 by Tennisgolfboll 1
Amentep Posted June 23, 2015 Posted June 23, 2015 ... Not that I believe the young earth theory, but logically, if an all-powerful god created the universe, then that same all-powerful god created time (it being a function of the universe), which means dating anything accurate is dependent on whether god intervened (ie god could manipulate time), which would - presumably - be impossible to detect without god intervening to say "yeah, I did it". Therefore, the earth could date to 4.5 billion years, and yet also be 6000 years old at the same time, because god intervened. I've never understood people who believe in an all powerful god fear the data of science - it seems to so devalue the ability of god who they claim to be all powerful, really. One of the interesting things to me about PoE's setup is that yes the pantheon we're introduced to are gods created by man, but while the Engwithans - we're told - could find no proof a real god (or gods) existing, it doesn't remove the idea that there's actually other gods out there that the Engwithans could never see. Yes - that is one of the most interesting parts of the PoE world. The Engwithans stopped looking and made something up. The plot twist in the sequel might involve actual gods of the world who aren't happy about the invented ones. just saw this, so apologies for a reply coming so late, but we would hate such a direction for the plot. obsidian managed to get rid o' the traditional fantasy world pantheon by making 'em human constructs. add more gods simple sends us back to proverbial square one, no? if it were Gromnir writing, we would explore the eothas death a bit more. perhaps the gods were created not so much as individuals but as a system and the system is currently broken. unfortunately, real world calamity is resulting from the failed divine system. eventual, the player gets a chance to deal with the eothas problem in a variety o' ways. fix system, effective replacing eothas with a new deity construct. another option would be to fix w/o a new eothas; make so other deities can absorb the increased load. end system, terminating the power o' the gods... which wouldn't necessarily end belief in those gods. etc. *shrug* the thing is, we don't wanna know what obsidian is gonna do. we want for obsidian to do something we do not foresee, but having reached the conclusion and looking back on the entirety o' the story, we only then realize how all the myriad pieces finally fit together and we recognize that the way obsidian did were inspired. in any event, we don't want a turtles all the way down problem by adding additional deities. HA! Good Fun! I'm not sure there is a need for an additional layer of gods; I just like the fact that they allow you to perhaps continue to have faith (if that is who your character is) even in the face of man-created Dieties either because you still believe in them or because you believe something else is better out there. I cannot - yet I must. How do you calculate that? At what point on the graph do "must" and "cannot" meet? Yet I must - but I cannot! ~ Ro-Man
Gromnir Posted June 23, 2015 Posted June 23, 2015 (edited) am actual amazed that so little mention is made o' how obsidian added faith as a central theme in a crpg with a pantheon o' deities that interact with the world and display tangible proofs o' their existence and power. obsidian approach is arguably unnecessary, but their pantheon is unique and clever and deserving o' note. as we observed earlier in this thread, the dime-store philosophy o' players or the obsidians interests us not at all, but the Question o' faith is possible in poe. amentep is able to consider the question o' poe faith and come to his own conclusions. good on obsidian. HA! Good Fun! Edited June 23, 2015 by Gromnir "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Yonjuro Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 (edited) ... Not that I believe the young earth theory, but logically, if an all-powerful god created the universe, then that same all-powerful god created time (it being a function of the universe), which means dating anything accurate is dependent on whether god intervened (ie god could manipulate time), which would - presumably - be impossible to detect without god intervening to say "yeah, I did it". Therefore, the earth could date to 4.5 billion years, and yet also be 6000 years old at the same time, because god intervened. I've never understood people who believe in an all powerful god fear the data of science - it seems to so devalue the ability of god who they claim to be all powerful, really. One of the interesting things to me about PoE's setup is that yes the pantheon we're introduced to are gods created by man, but while the Engwithans - we're told - could find no proof a real god (or gods) existing, it doesn't remove the idea that there's actually other gods out there that the Engwithans could never see. Yes - that is one of the most interesting parts of the PoE world. The Engwithans stopped looking and made something up. The plot twist in the sequel might involve actual gods of the world who aren't happy about the invented ones. just saw this, so apologies for a reply coming so late, but we would hate such a direction for the plot. obsidian managed to get rid o' the traditional fantasy world pantheon by making 'em human constructs. add more gods simple sends us back to proverbial square one, no? if it were Gromnir writing, we would explore the eothas death a bit more. perhaps the gods were created not so much as individuals but as a system and the system is currently broken. unfortunately, real world calamity is resulting from the failed divine system. eventual, the player gets a chance to deal with the eothas problem in a variety o' ways. fix system, effective replacing eothas with a new deity construct. another option would be to fix w/o a new eothas; make so other deities can absorb the increased load. end system, terminating the power o' the gods... which wouldn't necessarily end belief in those gods. etc. *shrug* the thing is, we don't wanna know what obsidian is gonna do. we want for obsidian to do something we do not foresee, but having reached the conclusion and looking back on the entirety o' the story, we only then realize how all the myriad pieces finally fit together and we recognize that the way obsidian did were inspired. in any event, we don't want a turtles all the way down problem by adding additional deities. HA! Good Fun! Yeah, I don't think 'turtles all the way down' is necessarily satisfying either. I think that the interesting part is the 'we didn't find what we wanted so we made something up and stopped looking' angle. There are a lot of directions they could go with this and it will be interesting to see where it ends up. (It might end up with 'we still don't know' which is ok if it's well written). Edited June 25, 2015 by Yonjuro
Yonjuro Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 ....Some basic good philosofy here. Indeed God is Allmighty and any "proof" in a statement that He in any way could ever be wrong is of course false. This is why the scientific theories are replaced all the time. Lies dont stand the test of time. Which is why evolution theory that darwin had holds very little with evolution theory today. And that of today is allready fading and will be replaced by new lies. Who would know how and when the world started: 10 famous scientists who lived for 50 years with the knowledge and intelligence of 10 men, or God who knows all things (past, present and future) ? But the basic evidence shows God : in all of vast space we see there is only life on earth. 1 meter of rainforest has more life than 10 billion x billion miles of stars, planets etc : all humans can by dna be traced to one mother and one father : big bang has despite billions of dollars trying to prove it, stayed nothing more than a fantasy Only those, who in desperate measure want to deny God can come to a conclusion to do so. God is evident in everything. Not to mention the literal hundreds of prophecies who predates Christ by 4000-500 years all happen. If one reads and understands the bible then one knows that would be impossible to all happen at once without God. This is much better than your last post where you explicitly mentioned trolls. 10/10 for this one as a troll post. I actually couldn't tell if you were serious or not just from the text of this post since I have read similar things from people who weren't joking. Careful though, some people will only read this one post and go away thinking you are serious.
Zwiebelchen Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 (edited) I actually couldn't tell if you were serious or not just from the text of this post since I have read similar things from people who weren't joking. Wait... if god exists and trolls don't exist, how can we be sure this guy is a troll? He could also just be an idiot. Or a troll pretending to be an idiot. Or an idiot pretending to be a troll. But if science can not prove if he is a troll or not, doesn't that prove that god exists? And if god exists and thus, trolls don't exist, wouldn't the question if he is a troll be answered, which ultimately provides proof that god can not exist, which again throws up the question again if he is a troll? We are running in circles... Edited June 25, 2015 by Zwiebelchen 2
Yonjuro Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 I actually couldn't tell if you were serious or not just from the text of this post since I have read similar things from people who weren't joking. Wait... if god exists and trolls don't exist, how can we be sure this guy is a troll? He could also just be an idiot. Or a troll pretending to be an idiot. Or an idiot pretending to be a troll. But if science can not prove if he is a troll or not, doesn't that prove that god exists? And if god exists and thus, trolls don't exist, wouldn't the question if he is a troll be answered, which ultimately provides proof that god can not exist, which again throws up the question again if he is a troll? We are running in circles... Yes, I think that sums it up - that would make him a troll if and only if he is not a troll.
Nakia Posted June 25, 2015 Posted June 25, 2015 I actually couldn't tell if you were serious or not just from the text of this post since I have read similar things from people who weren't joking. Wait... if god exists and trolls don't exist, how can we be sure this guy is a troll? He could also just be an idiot. Or a troll pretending to be an idiot. Or an idiot pretending to be a troll. But if science can not prove if he is a troll or not, doesn't that prove that god exists? And if god exists and thus, trolls don't exist, wouldn't the question if he is a troll be answered, which ultimately provides proof that god can not exist, which again throws up the question again if he is a troll? We are running in circles... -^- Schrödinger's cat is alive and well or is it? I have but one enemy: myself - Drow saying
Varana Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) We should just build us some troll constructs. :D (As an aside, anyone noticed that with the expansion, we'll get an artificial Devil to complement the artificial gods? ) Edited June 27, 2015 by Varana 1 Therefore I have sailed the seas and come To the holy city of Byzantium. -W.B. Yeats Χριστός ἀνέστη!
Sannom Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 We should just build us some troll constructs. :D (As an aside, anyone noticed that with the expansion, we'll get an artificial Devil to complement the artificial gods? ) The Devil isn't artificial in the way that the gods are though. Her body is a construct, her soul used to belong to a woman of flesh and blood... unless there is a twist somewhere.
Tennisgolfboll Posted June 28, 2015 Posted June 28, 2015 You are trolling by calling me a troll. Maybe its to hard for you to grasp that some of us think for ourselves. We dont buy into societies absurd sect ideas
Zwiebelchen Posted July 1, 2015 Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) We should just build us some troll constructs. :D (As an aside, anyone noticed that with the expansion, we'll get an artificial Devil to complement the artificial gods? ) The Devil isn't artificial in the way that the gods are though. Her body is a construct, her soul used to belong to a woman of flesh and blood... unless there is a twist somewhere. Heh; twist: her body is actually flesh-and-blood with metallic body-painting applied, but her soul comes from a cheeseburger. You are trolling by calling me a troll. Maybe its to hard for you to grasp that some of us think for ourselves. We dont buy into societies absurd sect ideas Sect ideas he said... Someone give this guy a stage, please! This stand-up comedy must prevail! Edited July 1, 2015 by Zwiebelchen
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