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An Honest but Harsh Review on the Setting

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#41
Amentep

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It was a joke. Those were people defying other people, what did the bay defy to become "Defiance Bay".

 

Its not funny when you explain it.1 :(

 

1Cue claims of "it wasn't funny before you explained it either".


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#42
fgalkin

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Well...the bay did a lot of the killing.....*rubs it in* :D

 

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin


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#43
Varana

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Fampyr is stupid.

 

I don't have a problem with the place names, though.

 

I think Vampire in Welsh is Fampir.  No V sound in the celtic based languages ...

 

 

There is a V sound in Welsh, they just don't use that letter for it: It's written as F. An English F sound exists, as well, and is written as FF in Welsh. That's why you get spellings like Ffrainc. So while a vampire is actually written fampir in Welsh, it is still pronounced /'vam-/. (Wikipedia is a great dictionary for lots of obscure languages. (Sorry to the Welsh. :D))

 

Adding to what fgalkin said: The use of languages is really well done. A duc is a duc because the office or title comes from the Vailian influence, as shown by its Romance origin. Erls, however, are Germanic and show the Aedyran influence. You can actually draw conclusions about power structure, culture, and history just by looking at the names. I haven't seen something like that in any video game I can remember. And in very few if any Fantasy worlds, at all.

 

In most fantasy settings, language use is comparable to the chainmail bikini. :D


Edited by Varana, 30 April 2015 - 09:55 AM.

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#44
Amentep

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^You are correct, I meant "V letter" not "V sound".  Stupidity on my part.



#45
Anonymous1924

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You know that I mean right, I am talking about this "fampyr" and "duc" business.

Virtually every speaker of Ænglisc who lived after the Norman invasion spoke like that, yourself included. Chances are that you would say something like "I eat beef", rather than "I eat cowflesh". So what's with this "beef" business? Are "vampire" and "duke" so much better? Those are just butchered versions of the perfectly fine Serbo-Croat word vampir and the perfectly fine French word duc.

 

I don't see why this disturbs you so much. I think they did a good job of it. It was still clear what the words meant, but they were gibbered enough to make it feel different and exotic (and not reveal too much too early, for most people anyway).


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#46
Elerond

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People and therefore languages have habit to borrow words from other people/languages.

 

For example if you go through this page you probably will find quite lot even everyday words that have come to English from some other language.

http://en.wikipedia....guage_of_origin



#47
Ineth

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You know that I mean right, I am talking about this "fampyr" and "duc" business.

Virtually every speaker of Ænglisc who lived after the Norman invasion spoke like that, yourself included. Chances are that you would say something like "I eat beef", rather than "I eat cowflesh". So what's with this "beef" business? Are "vampire" and "duke" so much better? Those are just butchered versions of the perfectly fine Serbo-Croat word vampir and the perfectly fine French word duc.

 

Indeed, the PoE variants of words feel quite fitting for a Medieval European based fantasy setting IMO.

 

In some ways more authentic than the modern English variants actually, if you know a little of (or from) European languages.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the people who feel irritated by those words, are people who only speak English.



#48
Tigranes

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The irony is that we're all speaking a language that's basically full of such butchered, uncanny valley words, yes.


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#49
Aqueous

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Wait, wait...

 

So, the setting went down 7 points purely because you felt it was a little dull and because they used "funny" names?

 

Wow.

 

Not to mention these "funny" names were largely based on REAL names for these things in various languages. So, basically, you're bordering on now saying those languages have "silly" names for things.

 

This is a fantasy world which means there are multiple countries, each with their own names for things. Using unique names is a way of representing that. You may not like the specific names chosen but criticizing the concept itself is going to take a much more persuasive argument than "I dun like it, itz silleh."



#50
Concordance

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Wait, wait...

 

So, the setting went down 7 points purely because you felt it was a little dull and because they used "funny" names?

 

Wow.

 

 

He said "honest and harsh", not "sane and reasonable".


Edited by Concordance, 02 May 2015 - 09:51 PM.

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#51
zered

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I like the linguistics. 10/10



#52
abaris

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Personally I got no problem with the setting and the language although I have to admit to pull a Gene Hackman on "duc", reading it "duck" until I heard it spelled.

 

My one and possibly only problem with that game are the map transitions, which makes exploring places like Defiance Bay a chore instead of giving them the attention they warrant for their richness.



#53
guguma

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You know that I mean right, I am talking about this "fampyr" and "duc" business.

Virtually every speaker of Ænglisc who lived after the Norman invasion spoke like that, yourself included. Chances are that you would say something like "I eat beef", rather than "I eat cowflesh". So what's with this "beef" business? Are "vampire" and "duke" so much better? Those are just butchered versions of the perfectly fine Serbo-Croat word vampir and the perfectly fine French word duc.

 

I don't see why this disturbs you so much. I think they did a good job of it. It was still clear what the words meant, but they were gibbered enough to make it feel different and exotic (and not reveal too much too early, for most people anyway).

 

 

English IS NOT MY NATIVE LANGUAGE, as I have said before. The game is in English not in French or Serbian so yes it makes much more sense to use vampire and duke.

 

Do not cross the barrier between a fantasy world and the real one. Languages evolve, thus some utterance ends up being "beef". There is no justification for such evolution in a fantasy world.

 

 

 

You know that I mean right, I am talking about this "fampyr" and "duc" business.

Virtually every speaker of Ænglisc who lived after the Norman invasion spoke like that, yourself included. Chances are that you would say something like "I eat beef", rather than "I eat cowflesh". So what's with this "beef" business? Are "vampire" and "duke" so much better? Those are just butchered versions of the perfectly fine Serbo-Croat word vampir and the perfectly fine French word duc.

 

Indeed, the PoE variants of words feel quite fitting for a Medieval European based fantasy setting IMO.

 

In some ways more authentic than the modern English variants actually, if you know a little of (or from) European languages.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the people who feel irritated by those words, are people who only speak English.

 

 

Again English is not my native language, I am not offended by "words", I am offended by the idea that making up words for a fantasy setting is "creative", and a great way to use resources such as "time" and "money".

 

 

Wait, wait...

 

So, the setting went down 7 points purely because you felt it was a little dull and because they used "funny" names?

 

Wow.

 

 

He said "honest and harsh", not "sane and reasonable".

 

 

 

I see all these responses, all are about justifying such creation of words and languages and the basis for that justification all point to having a "method" behind it, or how words evolve in real life, or how these are not made up but referenced from existing or archaic languages. 

 

Ok.

 

What part of  "Just because there is a methodology behind it, does not justify doing it" is so confusing to understand?

 

Sad thing is some people seems to have confused me for a native English speaker, and assumes that I am insisting on English usage only because I have absolutely no idea that other cultures and languages exist, and even if they did, I believe that they are inferior to English.

 

I am not going to insist further, if you believe a fantasy setting should come with a set of pseudo-languages, or pseudo-words fine with me.

 

But I believe that just 1 very interesting piece of lore, 1 very interesting original questline, 1 very original character, all these contribute much more value to a setting and actually require some creative, out of the box thinking lest they resemble cliche's.

 

You can create a kingdom ruled by "ducs" where magic is handled by "Gwiddonod" living in "Hochewalt" and by an order of "magos" named "rycerze wiedzy".

 

Or

 

You can create a kingdom ruled by dukes where magic is handled by witches living in highforest and by an order of wizards named knights of knowledge.

 

In my opinion both these mini-settings are one and the same, in fact a forced attempt at creativity in the first example actually manages to diminish the value of this setting.

 

SO YES, I AM GIVING THE SETTING A "3/10" BECAUSE ANY ATTEMPT AT IMMERSION IS INTERRUPTED BY A SMEARING OF PSEUDO-WORDS TO MY FACE, SCREAMING TO ME THAT IT BELONGS TO A SETTING, IT IS PUT THERE BY SOMEONE WHO THOUGHT THIS WOULD BE VERY CREATIVE, VERY ORIGINAL.


Edited by guguma, 05 May 2015 - 12:56 AM.


#54
FlintlockJazz

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You know that I mean right, I am talking about this "fampyr" and "duc" business.

Virtually every speaker of Ænglisc who lived after the Norman invasion spoke like that, yourself included. Chances are that you would say something like "I eat beef", rather than "I eat cowflesh". So what's with this "beef" business? Are "vampire" and "duke" so much better? Those are just butchered versions of the perfectly fine Serbo-Croat word vampir and the perfectly fine French word duc.

 

I don't see why this disturbs you so much. I think they did a good job of it. It was still clear what the words meant, but they were gibbered enough to make it feel different and exotic (and not reveal too much too early, for most people anyway).

 

 

English IS NOT MY NATIVE LANGUAGE, as I have said before. The game is in English not in French or Serbian so yes it makes much more sense to use vampire and duke.

 

Do not cross the barrier between a fantasy world and the real one. Languages evolve, thus some utterance ends up being "beef". There is no justification for such evolution in a fantasy world.

 

First, he knows that it's not your native language, don't need to shout, he never said it was, but you ARE speaking English or at least writing it are you not?  So you do speak English even if it is not your native language, so your point is irrelevant, the words you use when you speak English are derived from other languages in many cases including French.

 

Second, and excuse me for shouting now but it is justified in this case, HOW DARE YOU PRESUME TO TELL US WHAT WE CAN AND CAN'T HAVE IN FANTASY!  Who the **** do you think you are to come here and tell us that we can't have something just because you personally don't like it?  How dare you presume to tell people what they shouldn't do in a Fantasy setting?  *Points to door* Go home and think about what you have done, next thing you'll be declaring that guns don't belong in Fantasy either...



#55
fgalkin

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So, guguma, what would be your preferred replacement for "duc?" Please don't say "duke," because the position is not equivalent, so the English word does not apply. 

 

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin


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#56
Varana

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There is no justification for such evolution in a fantasy world.

 

There is. It is in the nature of languages to evolve. As long as they're in use, they will change.
So if you have any people speaking in your fantasy world, evolving languages, language relations, loanwords, and so on, help to make your fantasy world believable.
 
Sure, you don't need to. That's what I meant earlier with my chainmail bikini analogy. You don't have to give a damn whether the armour of your heroes makes any sense. It will just look a bit ridiculous. The same for language - sure, the Galactic Standard is a common trope for authors who couldn't be bothered. But it detracts from the plausibility of your setting.
 

You can create a kingdom ruled by "ducs" where magic is handled by "Gwiddonod" living in "Hochewalt" and by an order of "magos" named "rycerze wiedzy".

 

 
Sure. For every thing, you can find a bad example.

But the point that various people have been trying to point out to you is that that is not how it is done in PoE.

 

Some examples (like duc) may look like that - because they are words that suffered the same fate in real life. (The duc comes from a pseudo-Romance language, where the word makes historical sense and has a complete etymology behind it - from the word for "to lead" (ducere), and so on.) That English borrowed that word, as well, is of secondary importance. It's not "let's take the word duke and invent a new one that looks suspiciously like it", but "how would people using a Romance-based language call their leader? well, something with duc-, obviously."

 

If PoE looks like your sentence to you, that's unfortunate. It doesn't use language that way.

 

But I believe that just 1 very interesting piece of lore, 1 very interesting original questline, 1 very original character, all these contribute much more value to a setting and actually require some creative, out of the box thinking lest they resemble cliche's.

 

 

Language is an interesting piece of lore. It is as much background lore as "in region X, they build their houses out of ice blocks". Or "the Rauatai are a seafaring nation". Or "which gods are revered by people Y".

If done badly, like in your "example", it is, surprise, bad. If done right, it does require creative thinking and leads to interesting world-building.


Edited by Varana, 05 May 2015 - 05:44 AM.

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#57
Amentep

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Cūthe habban béonde wiersa - hit cūthe habben ealdgewyrht geondbrædan in Eald Englisc

With appologies to those who actually speak and read Old English, unlike myself. :p

Seriously though, the PC is a traveler to a foreign land - it'd seem strange to me if everything in that foreign land was completely familiar. I recall traveling to the UK and meeting a Scottish man whose accent was so strong he might have been talking a foreign language despite it being English. Or traveling to Wales where a lot of the place names WERE in a foreign language. Even though, nominally, the UK speaks the English I've been trained in, there was a history there that wasn't all from the Angles.
 


Edited by Amentep, 05 May 2015 - 06:25 AM.


#58
NathanH

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I find the almost-English words annoying. If we assume that the languages being spoken in the game world have no particular relationship with English (because why would it?) then either something should be given its in-world name (if it isn't relatable to any English word) or an English translation (if it is similar).



#59
Amentep

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If Eora speaks language "A" and language "A" has a relationship with language "B" and the relationship between language "A" and "B" is equivalent to say, the relationship between English and Cornish/Irish, what's the issue with representing Eora langauge "A" and "B" with English and Cornish/Irish?

Edited by Amentep, 05 May 2015 - 09:45 AM.

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#60
guguma

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You know that I mean right, I am talking about this "fampyr" and "duc" business.

Virtually every speaker of Ænglisc who lived after the Norman invasion spoke like that, yourself included. Chances are that you would say something like "I eat beef", rather than "I eat cowflesh". So what's with this "beef" business? Are "vampire" and "duke" so much better? Those are just butchered versions of the perfectly fine Serbo-Croat word vampir and the perfectly fine French word duc.
 
I don't see why this disturbs you so much. I think they did a good job of it. It was still clear what the words meant, but they were gibbered enough to make it feel different and exotic (and not reveal too much too early, for most people anyway).

 

 
English IS NOT MY NATIVE LANGUAGE, as I have said before. The game is in English not in French or Serbian so yes it makes much more sense to use vampire and duke.
 
Do not cross the barrier between a fantasy world and the real one. Languages evolve, thus some utterance ends up being "beef". There is no justification for such evolution in a fantasy world.

 

First, he knows that it's not your native language, don't need to shout, he never said it was, but you ARE speaking English or at least writing it are you not?  So you do speak English even if it is not your native language, so your point is irrelevant, the words you use when you speak English are derived from other languages in many cases including French.
 
Second, and excuse me for shouting now but it is justified in this case, HOW DARE YOU PRESUME TO TELL US WHAT WE CAN AND CAN'T HAVE IN FANTASY!  Who the **** do you think you are to come here and tell us that we can't have something just because you personally don't like it?  How dare you presume to tell people what they shouldn't do in a Fantasy setting?  *Points to door* Go home and think about what you have done, next thing you'll be declaring that guns don't belong in Fantasy either...

 


There is one (maybe two) aspects to this game that amounts to my disappointment (and before I get flamed in the least constructive and silliest manners for my comments I must add that, yes, I am aware that I am not the ultimate authority on everything RPGs, and gaming, and I am aware that there is no reason my opinion should matter more than anyone elses).


I wonder why people find it hard to read, interpret and dwell on what they are about to say before speaking their mind.

I am entitled to state my opinion about the game or the setting, whether it is negative or positive, and that is exactly what I am doing here. There is nothing daring about that. I might as well say that I do not enjoy guns or monks being in a fantasy world, I did not, but I sure can.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

"I am trying to draw attention to pseudo-language vs. other forms of creativity and elements of immersion, where both uses resources from the same pool and stating that in my opinion other forms of creativity and elements of immersion adds more value to a product compared to utilizing a pseudo-language." 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

If one is not entitled to speak what they do not like, then every creation must be accepted as flawless, whether it is an art, or a book, or a game, or a fantasy setting or a piece of music.

 

First you take on this zealous attitude of defending what is already there (some do this blindly, some actually provide reasons which is perfectly fine), then you wonder why products of the gaming industry have become so shallow, so cliche!

 

Consumer 1: "I do not enjoy what is done with the language"

 

Consumer Mob: "It is perfectly fine, you do not understand what you are talking about"

 

Consumer 2: "I think combat could be better"

 

Consumer Mob: "No it is perfectly fine, you are stupid, if you can do better do it yourself ...rabble rabble..."

 

Consumer 3: "It seems to me you skimmed off from the storytelling"

 

Consumer Mob: "...rabble rabble...We like it, it is the perfect length, do not play it if you do not like it ...rabble rabble..."

 

Consumer 4: "I believe classes and abilities need improvement, it lacks some complexity"

 

Consumer Mob: "...rabble rabble... no it does not, you need to get used to it ..rabble rabble..."

 

Now if I were a game developer and I saw this, I would feel absolutely no pressure of thriving to make a better product release, I have done just fine. In fact I can even do less and people will love it anyhow.

 

Same goes with art, literature, movies, music etc...

 

@fglakin

 

I would either use "duke" but state in the lore clearly how these dukes are elected  to reflect upon the different political structure. Or use something like a "consul".

 

From the wiki:

 

Vailian Republics are rooted in what we would call a Renaissance culture, closely resembling the Italian city-states.[2]. The land is divided among fourteen republics, each ruled by duc or ducess, and has voting rights on the sengretta ducala ("ducal congress" in Vallian) Among them five "great cities" (cuiteti beli), considered "grand" republics, and have greater voting power in their electoral council; these cities are Ancenze, Ozia, Revua, Selona, and Spirento. The leaders of these republics are known as the ducs bels, or "great ducs", and form the leading force of the ducal congress.

 

Alternate option

 

Vailian Republics closely resembles the Italian city-states.[2]. The land is divided among fourteen republics, each ruled by a consul, and has voting rights on the Consular Senate Among them five grand republics have greater voting power in their electoral council; these cities are Ancenze, Ozia, Revua, Selona, and Spirento. The leaders of these republics are known as the Proconsuls (or High Consul you choose), and form the leading force of the Consular Senate.

 

It does not have to be consul, or consular senate, use any you would like. But it sure gets rid of all this quotation emphasis, and parentheses in every single sentence.

 

And Pallegina can still be given an authentic pronunciation of these Consuls (Consulare), Consular Senate (Senato di Consulare), yet there is not a necessity to explain what she meant afterwards since it is pretty straightforward. "Sengretta Ducala" however is not, or "ducs bels" they resemble more like Sangria of the Duke, or Ducks Bells, or Beautiful (Nice) Duke.

 

Most importantly what is done is done. The setting is set, it is not going to change, as I said before if you do not believe me observe someone we all like. Look at RPG's Chris Avellone worked at and look at the parts he wrote (including PoE), his companions, questlines, storylines are damn impressive yet the language is plain and simple (unless it is a copyrighted term from a setting).


Edited by guguma, 05 May 2015 - 11:04 AM.






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