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guguma

An Honest but Harsh Review on the Setting

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Personally I got no problem with the setting and the language although I have to admit to pull a Gene Hackman on "duc", reading it "duck" until I heard it spelled.

 

My one and possibly only problem with that game are the map transitions, which makes exploring places like Defiance Bay a chore instead of giving them the attention they warrant for their richness.

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You know that I mean right, I am talking about this "fampyr" and "duc" business.

Virtually every speaker of Ænglisc who lived after the Norman invasion spoke like that, yourself included. Chances are that you would say something like "I eat beef", rather than "I eat cowflesh". So what's with this "beef" business? Are "vampire" and "duke" so much better? Those are just butchered versions of the perfectly fine Serbo-Croat word vampir and the perfectly fine French word duc.

 

I don't see why this disturbs you so much. I think they did a good job of it. It was still clear what the words meant, but they were gibbered enough to make it feel different and exotic (and not reveal too much too early, for most people anyway).

 

 

English IS NOT MY NATIVE LANGUAGE, as I have said before. The game is in English not in French or Serbian so yes it makes much more sense to use vampire and duke.

 

Do not cross the barrier between a fantasy world and the real one. Languages evolve, thus some utterance ends up being "beef". There is no justification for such evolution in a fantasy world.

 

 

 

You know that I mean right, I am talking about this "fampyr" and "duc" business.

Virtually every speaker of Ænglisc who lived after the Norman invasion spoke like that, yourself included. Chances are that you would say something like "I eat beef", rather than "I eat cowflesh". So what's with this "beef" business? Are "vampire" and "duke" so much better? Those are just butchered versions of the perfectly fine Serbo-Croat word vampir and the perfectly fine French word duc.

 

Indeed, the PoE variants of words feel quite fitting for a Medieval European based fantasy setting IMO.

 

In some ways more authentic than the modern English variants actually, if you know a little of (or from) European languages.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the people who feel irritated by those words, are people who only speak English.

 

 

Again English is not my native language, I am not offended by "words", I am offended by the idea that making up words for a fantasy setting is "creative", and a great way to use resources such as "time" and "money".

 

 

Wait, wait...

 

So, the setting went down 7 points purely because you felt it was a little dull and because they used "funny" names?

 

Wow.

 

 

He said "honest and harsh", not "sane and reasonable".

 

 

 

I see all these responses, all are about justifying such creation of words and languages and the basis for that justification all point to having a "method" behind it, or how words evolve in real life, or how these are not made up but referenced from existing or archaic languages. 

 

Ok.

 

What part of  "Just because there is a methodology behind it, does not justify doing it" is so confusing to understand?

 

Sad thing is some people seems to have confused me for a native English speaker, and assumes that I am insisting on English usage only because I have absolutely no idea that other cultures and languages exist, and even if they did, I believe that they are inferior to English.

 

I am not going to insist further, if you believe a fantasy setting should come with a set of pseudo-languages, or pseudo-words fine with me.

 

But I believe that just 1 very interesting piece of lore, 1 very interesting original questline, 1 very original character, all these contribute much more value to a setting and actually require some creative, out of the box thinking lest they resemble cliche's.

 

You can create a kingdom ruled by "ducs" where magic is handled by "Gwiddonod" living in "Hochewalt" and by an order of "magos" named "rycerze wiedzy".

 

Or

 

You can create a kingdom ruled by dukes where magic is handled by witches living in highforest and by an order of wizards named knights of knowledge.

 

In my opinion both these mini-settings are one and the same, in fact a forced attempt at creativity in the first example actually manages to diminish the value of this setting.

 

SO YES, I AM GIVING THE SETTING A "3/10" BECAUSE ANY ATTEMPT AT IMMERSION IS INTERRUPTED BY A SMEARING OF PSEUDO-WORDS TO MY FACE, SCREAMING TO ME THAT IT BELONGS TO A SETTING, IT IS PUT THERE BY SOMEONE WHO THOUGHT THIS WOULD BE VERY CREATIVE, VERY ORIGINAL.

Edited by guguma

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You know that I mean right, I am talking about this "fampyr" and "duc" business.

Virtually every speaker of Ænglisc who lived after the Norman invasion spoke like that, yourself included. Chances are that you would say something like "I eat beef", rather than "I eat cowflesh". So what's with this "beef" business? Are "vampire" and "duke" so much better? Those are just butchered versions of the perfectly fine Serbo-Croat word vampir and the perfectly fine French word duc.

 

I don't see why this disturbs you so much. I think they did a good job of it. It was still clear what the words meant, but they were gibbered enough to make it feel different and exotic (and not reveal too much too early, for most people anyway).

 

 

English IS NOT MY NATIVE LANGUAGE, as I have said before. The game is in English not in French or Serbian so yes it makes much more sense to use vampire and duke.

 

Do not cross the barrier between a fantasy world and the real one. Languages evolve, thus some utterance ends up being "beef". There is no justification for such evolution in a fantasy world.

 

First, he knows that it's not your native language, don't need to shout, he never said it was, but you ARE speaking English or at least writing it are you not?  So you do speak English even if it is not your native language, so your point is irrelevant, the words you use when you speak English are derived from other languages in many cases including French.

 

Second, and excuse me for shouting now but it is justified in this case, HOW DARE YOU PRESUME TO TELL US WHAT WE CAN AND CAN'T HAVE IN FANTASY!  Who the **** do you think you are to come here and tell us that we can't have something just because you personally don't like it?  How dare you presume to tell people what they shouldn't do in a Fantasy setting?  *Points to door* Go home and think about what you have done, next thing you'll be declaring that guns don't belong in Fantasy either...


"That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail

"Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams

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So, guguma, what would be your preferred replacement for "duc?" Please don't say "duke," because the position is not equivalent, so the English word does not apply. 

 

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin

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There is no justification for such evolution in a fantasy world.

 

There is. It is in the nature of languages to evolve. As long as they're in use, they will change.

So if you have any people speaking in your fantasy world, evolving languages, language relations, loanwords, and so on, help to make your fantasy world believable.

 

Sure, you don't need to. That's what I meant earlier with my chainmail bikini analogy. You don't have to give a damn whether the armour of your heroes makes any sense. It will just look a bit ridiculous. The same for language - sure, the Galactic Standard is a common trope for authors who couldn't be bothered. But it detracts from the plausibility of your setting.

 

You can create a kingdom ruled by "ducs" where magic is handled by "Gwiddonod" living in "Hochewalt" and by an order of "magos" named "rycerze wiedzy".

 

 

Sure. For every thing, you can find a bad example.

But the point that various people have been trying to point out to you is that that is not how it is done in PoE.

 

Some examples (like duc) may look like that - because they are words that suffered the same fate in real life. (The duc comes from a pseudo-Romance language, where the word makes historical sense and has a complete etymology behind it - from the word for "to lead" (ducere), and so on.) That English borrowed that word, as well, is of secondary importance. It's not "let's take the word duke and invent a new one that looks suspiciously like it", but "how would people using a Romance-based language call their leader? well, something with duc-, obviously."

 

If PoE looks like your sentence to you, that's unfortunate. It doesn't use language that way.

 

But I believe that just 1 very interesting piece of lore, 1 very interesting original questline, 1 very original character, all these contribute much more value to a setting and actually require some creative, out of the box thinking lest they resemble cliche's.

 

 

Language is an interesting piece of lore. It is as much background lore as "in region X, they build their houses out of ice blocks". Or "the Rauatai are a seafaring nation". Or "which gods are revered by people Y".

If done badly, like in your "example", it is, surprise, bad. If done right, it does require creative thinking and leads to interesting world-building.

Edited by Varana
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Therefore I have sailed the seas and come

To the holy city of Byzantium. -W.B. Yeats

 

Χριστός ἀνέστη!

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Cūthe habban béonde wiersa - hit cūthe habben ealdgewyrht geondbrædan in Eald Englisc

With appologies to those who actually speak and read Old English, unlike myself. :p

Seriously though, the PC is a traveler to a foreign land - it'd seem strange to me if everything in that foreign land was completely familiar. I recall traveling to the UK and meeting a Scottish man whose accent was so strong he might have been talking a foreign language despite it being English. Or traveling to Wales where a lot of the place names WERE in a foreign language. Even though, nominally, the UK speaks the English I've been trained in, there was a history there that wasn't all from the Angles.
 

Edited by Amentep

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I find the almost-English words annoying. If we assume that the languages being spoken in the game world have no particular relationship with English (because why would it?) then either something should be given its in-world name (if it isn't relatable to any English word) or an English translation (if it is similar).

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If Eora speaks language "A" and language "A" has a relationship with language "B" and the relationship between language "A" and "B" is equivalent to say, the relationship between English and Cornish/Irish, what's the issue with representing Eora langauge "A" and "B" with English and Cornish/Irish?

Edited by Amentep
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You know that I mean right, I am talking about this "fampyr" and "duc" business.

Virtually every speaker of Ænglisc who lived after the Norman invasion spoke like that, yourself included. Chances are that you would say something like "I eat beef", rather than "I eat cowflesh". So what's with this "beef" business? Are "vampire" and "duke" so much better? Those are just butchered versions of the perfectly fine Serbo-Croat word vampir and the perfectly fine French word duc.

 

I don't see why this disturbs you so much. I think they did a good job of it. It was still clear what the words meant, but they were gibbered enough to make it feel different and exotic (and not reveal too much too early, for most people anyway).

 

 

English IS NOT MY NATIVE LANGUAGE, as I have said before. The game is in English not in French or Serbian so yes it makes much more sense to use vampire and duke.

 

Do not cross the barrier between a fantasy world and the real one. Languages evolve, thus some utterance ends up being "beef". There is no justification for such evolution in a fantasy world.

 

First, he knows that it's not your native language, don't need to shout, he never said it was, but you ARE speaking English or at least writing it are you not?  So you do speak English even if it is not your native language, so your point is irrelevant, the words you use when you speak English are derived from other languages in many cases including French.

 

Second, and excuse me for shouting now but it is justified in this case, HOW DARE YOU PRESUME TO TELL US WHAT WE CAN AND CAN'T HAVE IN FANTASY!  Who the **** do you think you are to come here and tell us that we can't have something just because you personally don't like it?  How dare you presume to tell people what they shouldn't do in a Fantasy setting?  *Points to door* Go home and think about what you have done, next thing you'll be declaring that guns don't belong in Fantasy either...

 

There is one (maybe two) aspects to this game that amounts to my disappointment (and before I get flamed in the least constructive and silliest manners for my comments I must add that, yes, I am aware that I am not the ultimate authority on everything RPGs, and gaming, and I am aware that there is no reason my opinion should matter more than anyone elses).

I wonder why people find it hard to read, interpret and dwell on what they are about to say before speaking their mind.

 

I am entitled to state my opinion about the game or the setting, whether it is negative or positive, and that is exactly what I am doing here. There is nothing daring about that. I might as well say that I do not enjoy guns or monks being in a fantasy world, I did not, but I sure can.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

"I am trying to draw attention to pseudo-language vs. other forms of creativity and elements of immersion, where both uses resources from the same pool and stating that in my opinion other forms of creativity and elements of immersion adds more value to a product compared to utilizing a pseudo-language." 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

If one is not entitled to speak what they do not like, then every creation must be accepted as flawless, whether it is an art, or a book, or a game, or a fantasy setting or a piece of music.

 

First you take on this zealous attitude of defending what is already there (some do this blindly, some actually provide reasons which is perfectly fine), then you wonder why products of the gaming industry have become so shallow, so cliche!

 

Consumer 1: "I do not enjoy what is done with the language"

 

Consumer Mob: "It is perfectly fine, you do not understand what you are talking about"

 

Consumer 2: "I think combat could be better"

 

Consumer Mob: "No it is perfectly fine, you are stupid, if you can do better do it yourself ...rabble rabble..."

 

Consumer 3: "It seems to me you skimmed off from the storytelling"

 

Consumer Mob: "...rabble rabble...We like it, it is the perfect length, do not play it if you do not like it ...rabble rabble..."

 

Consumer 4: "I believe classes and abilities need improvement, it lacks some complexity"

 

Consumer Mob: "...rabble rabble... no it does not, you need to get used to it ..rabble rabble..."

 

Now if I were a game developer and I saw this, I would feel absolutely no pressure of thriving to make a better product release, I have done just fine. In fact I can even do less and people will love it anyhow.

 

Same goes with art, literature, movies, music etc...

 

@fglakin

 

I would either use "duke" but state in the lore clearly how these dukes are elected  to reflect upon the different political structure. Or use something like a "consul".

 

From the wiki:

 

Vailian Republics are rooted in what we would call a Renaissance culture, closely resembling the Italian city-states.[2]. The land is divided among fourteen republics, each ruled by duc or ducess, and has voting rights on the sengretta ducala ("ducal congress" in Vallian) Among them five "great cities" (cuiteti beli), considered "grand" republics, and have greater voting power in their electoral council; these cities are Ancenze, Ozia, Revua, Selona, and Spirento. The leaders of these republics are known as the ducs bels, or "great ducs", and form the leading force of the ducal congress.

 

Alternate option

 

Vailian Republics closely resembles the Italian city-states.[2]. The land is divided among fourteen republics, each ruled by a consul, and has voting rights on the Consular Senate Among them five grand republics have greater voting power in their electoral council; these cities are Ancenze, Ozia, Revua, Selona, and Spirento. The leaders of these republics are known as the Proconsuls (or High Consul you choose), and form the leading force of the Consular Senate.

 

It does not have to be consul, or consular senate, use any you would like. But it sure gets rid of all this quotation emphasis, and parentheses in every single sentence.

 

And Pallegina can still be given an authentic pronunciation of these Consuls (Consulare), Consular Senate (Senato di Consulare), yet there is not a necessity to explain what she meant afterwards since it is pretty straightforward. "Sengretta Ducala" however is not, or "ducs bels" they resemble more like Sangria of the Duke, or Ducks Bells, or Beautiful (Nice) Duke.

 

Most importantly what is done is done. The setting is set, it is not going to change, as I said before if you do not believe me observe someone we all like. Look at RPG's Chris Avellone worked at and look at the parts he wrote (including PoE), his companions, questlines, storylines are damn impressive yet the language is plain and simple (unless it is a copyrighted term from a setting).

Edited by guguma

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Why is "consul" acceptable, but "duc" is not? Neither are English terms, so neither should be allowed, under your reasoning. Besides, "consul" doesn't even make sense, as the position is nothing alike, Might as well call it "Ambassador" or "Hierophant" or any other meaningless, but pretentious-sounding term

 

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin

Edited by fgalkin

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Why is "consul" acceptable, but "duc" is not? Neither are English terms, so neither should be allowed, under your reasoning. Besides, "consul" doesn't even make sense, as the position is nothing alike, Might as well call it "Ambassador" or "Hierophant" or any other meaningless, but pretentious-sounding term

 

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin

 

What do you expect me to do, if you still insist on not seeing the big picture but dwell on individual words. I agree that the position is nothing alike a consul. Then what is the position alike, did such a position ever exist in the real world? Is the position alike a "duc". "Duc" resembles the idea of a duke, a feodal ruler, not elected. A consul conveys the idea of an elected official, yet not by the people but rather by a favored class. Which one has closer meaning to the ruling class of Vailian Republics?

 

If you are going to use "duc" you might as well use "duke" instead. Would you like it if I used "Consool" instead of Consul. I would not, because Consool screams "I wanted to say consul, but did not, so I made a silly word for consul, now I have to define what Consool means, however I might have simply used consul instead and redefined the word in my setting". Just as "Duc" screams, "I wanted to say duke, but did not, so I made a silly word for duke, now I have to define what Duc means, however I might have simply used duke instead and redefined the word in my setting."

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"Duc" comes from the Italian "duce," which was the alternate pronunciation of the word "doge." Which is exactly the title they meant when they made the setting- a lifelong elected leadership position in the mercantile republics of Venice and Genoa. It was not arbitrary at all. Neither are the other terms they used.

 

It's terms like "Godlike" and "disease pudding" that are the problematic ones.

 

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin

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It's terms like "Godlike" and "disease pudding" that are the problematic ones.

Why is Godlike problematic?

 

I like these "silly" words because they reinforce the impression that all nations speak different languages. It's realistic and gives them a unique flavor. They seem to be well thought out, foreign, but drawing from European roots and therefore familiar enough to not overwhelm me. It was a little confusing at first, but after a few hours the naming conventions started coming together.

 

One can revert to their native language when they lack the word they need to express themselves, but would it mean anything?

 

English is a foreign language to me, if I lacked the words in English to explain something here on this forum and reverted to my native language you would not understand anything and would ask me what I meant, and I would go find a way to express it in the English language.

 

It would be interesting to add a companion who insisted using words from their native language, and would not know the translation to common. It makes no sense for them to utter words in their native language and right afterwards give us a common translation.

I sometimes use terms from my native language, explaining them as "the equivalent of English X" or "similar to Y, but different in this and that aspect". Quite like your example: "Our tribal leaders, the anamfath..." I wouldn't mention the original name visiting the UK, but when I was giving directions to a friend visiting my country, I actually did use our names so they'd be able to recognize them when they reached their destination.

Edited by Rosveen

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Dyrwood is based on the USA. The USA has ridiculous names like "Delaware," "Massachusetts," and "Mississippi." Such silliness! Who would come up with silly names like that?! Why didn't they just call it "Pilgrim Land," or "River Land?"

 

I do not want a linguistics lesson just by looking at a map! 3/10!

 

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin

 

Those names have historic roots, based on history, The History, that actually happened, sadly most are named after massacred and extinct Native Americans, not only states but many cities and counties too. I just looked at what Mississippi meant and, surprise, it means "The Father of Waters"

 

We know Massachusetts, Paris, Berlin, Cairo, Copenhagen, because we live on earth. When someone tells you they live in Copenhagen, you understand perfectly well what they mean.

 

I do not intend to read the "Collected Volumes on the History of Dyrwood" or keep a "Concise Engwithian Dictionary" with me while I am trying to enjoy a story. 

 

 

Well but Copenhagen isn't the real name it's København.  It's just foreigners to Scandinavia that call it Copenhagen.  In old norse it's called Kaupmannahøfn which literally means Merchant City. So for me calling things something other than standard english words is no problem

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Dyrwood is based on the USA. The USA has ridiculous names like "Delaware," "Massachusetts," and "Mississippi." Such silliness! Who would come up with silly names like that?! Why didn't they just call it "Pilgrim Land," or "River Land?"

 

I do not want a linguistics lesson just by looking at a map! 3/10!

 

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin

 

Those names have historic roots, based on history, The History, that actually happened, sadly most are named after massacred and extinct Native Americans, not only states but many cities and counties too. I just looked at what Mississippi meant and, surprise, it means "The Father of Waters"

 

We know Massachusetts, Paris, Berlin, Cairo, Copenhagen, because we live on earth. When someone tells you they live in Copenhagen, you understand perfectly well what they mean.

 

I do not intend to read the "Collected Volumes on the History of Dyrwood" or keep a "Concise Engwithian Dictionary" with me while I am trying to enjoy a story. 

 

 

Well but Copenhagen isn't the real name it's København.  It's just foreigners to Scandinavia that call it Copenhagen.  In old norse it's called Kaupmannahøfn which literally means Merchant City. So for me calling things something other than standard english words is no problem

 

 

Exactly, thus when the city was founded it was named "Merchant City" (Merchant's Haven maybe?), it was given a meaningful name, just like how every culture names everything. Just as the Mississippi example.

 

So for you calling things something other than standard English words is no problem, tsk tsk, unbelieveable. I always call things in English, I travel to many countries yet I insist calling everything in English. When I go to Denmark I go up to the train conductor and tell them they have made a huge mistake, I will go to Copenhagen not to some nonsense called København and when s/he replies to me in Danish, I raise my arms in complete bafflement and yell them to stop talking nonsense.

 

Is this what you were able to fathom from all my posts?

 

A large portion of people in this argument are comparing the evolution of words and languages over thousands of years, uttered by thousands of cultures and evolved through years of intercultural relations, to the evolution of non-complete languages created in the past 3 years.

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About the names, here's how I see it:

 

(1) Names and titles have cultural baggage, and using the same names and titles as, for instance, at a certain time and place in real-world history transfers that cultural baggage to the fictional world. Which is fine if that's what you want, otherwise it's detrimental to the setting's identity. So using invented names for things that don't work like similar things in real-world cultures is often a necessity.

 

(2) Descriptive names are intrinsically problematic. Many real-world locations have them but they work only because we've grown up with them. If you sit back and think about what they mean, quite often they'd appear just as silly as some of the descriptive names used in some fantasy settings. 

 

For that reason, alien-sounding names are a necessity for some fantasy settings, especially if you want to emphasize that it actually *is* a fantastic setting where important things work differently than in the real world, rather than simply the pseudo-historical underpinning for a castle opera. In fact, rather frequently within PoE the invented names aren't alien enough to dispense with the cultural baggage they're carrying. Some examples have been mentioned. Yes, it takes time and effort to get an impression of the world if so much of the lore is expressed in alien terms, but that - deciphering the world - is part of what makes fantasy settings interesting.

 

The other side of this is of course, that if something is familiar and works the same way in the fictional world, most of the time there's no harm in using a term people know. In those cases, using alien terms just feels pretentious, and slightly changing terms just to sound a little foreign can come across as worldbuilding incompetence. Overall, I observe that the right balance was not always found but all in all things work for me.

 

@guguma:

You can't reasonably expect people to adapt to your culture if your're travelling in the domain of their's.

Edited by Ieldra

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Exactly, thus when the city was founded it was named "Merchant City" (Merchant's Haven maybe?), it was given a meaningful name, just like how every culture names everything. Just as the Mississippi example.

 

 

Every place in PoE has meaningful name, even if you don't know what that meaning is. They have alien sound because of that, and that alien sound makes setting feel much better than using some English phrases, because that would drop history behind the setting.

 

It is similar mechanic that Tolkien used in Middle-Earth to make it feel that it has history behind it. If you don't appreciate such effort fine, but in my opinion you don't just understand what makes good setting. 

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I wonder why people find it hard to read, interpret and dwell on what they are about to say before speaking their mind.

 

I am entitled to state my opinion about the game or the setting, whether it is negative or positive, and that is exactly what I am doing here. There is nothing daring about that. I might as well say that I do not enjoy guns or monks being in a fantasy world, I did not, but I sure can.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

"I am trying to draw attention to pseudo-language vs. other forms of creativity and elements of immersion, where both uses resources from the same pool and stating that in my opinion other forms of creativity and elements of immersion adds more value to a product compared to utilizing a pseudo-language." 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

If one is not entitled to speak what they do not like, then every creation must be accepted as flawless, whether it is an art, or a book, or a game, or a fantasy setting or a piece of music.

 

First you take on this zealous attitude of defending what is already there (some do this blindly, some actually provide reasons which is perfectly fine), then you wonder why products of the gaming industry have become so shallow, so cliche!

 

Consumer 1: "I do not enjoy what is done with the language"

 

Consumer Mob: "It is perfectly fine, you do not understand what you are talking about"

 

Consumer 2: "I think combat could be better"

 

Consumer Mob: "No it is perfectly fine, you are stupid, if you can do better do it yourself ...rabble rabble..."

 

Consumer 3: "It seems to me you skimmed off from the storytelling"

 

Consumer Mob: "...rabble rabble...We like it, it is the perfect length, do not play it if you do not like it ...rabble rabble..."

 

Consumer 4: "I believe classes and abilities need improvement, it lacks some complexity"

 

Consumer Mob: "...rabble rabble... no it does not, you need to get used to it ..rabble rabble..."

 

Now if I were a game developer and I saw this, I would feel absolutely no pressure of thriving to make a better product release, I have done just fine. In fact I can even do less and people will love it anyhow.

 

Same goes with art, literature, movies, music etc...

 

 

 

Then why did you declare how Fantasy worked hmmm?  Because you did, you made a sweeping statement about how fantasy should work, and I called you out on it.  I did not zealously defend the game, nice strawman, I called you out on a fallacious statement of yours.  Feel free to apologise whenever

 

Now, onto your false dichotomy, which was an obvious attempt at diverting away from above but I feel like having fun deconstructing you, about not criticising something leading to shallow games, no one stated that you can't criticise, but first of all your opinion on the use of language in the game is purely your preferences, I LIKE the use of language and naming in this game, so how does your criticism improve it?  On the contrary, your criticism actually tries to make the game more like everything else and therefore more shallow.  Nice job.  Second, who the hell said not to criticise the game?  Strawmanning again are we?

Edited by FlintlockJazz
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The problem I found with the language in the game wasn't really with any specific name or term, but rather that there was a tendency to use multiple unfamiliar terms in a sentence which inhibited deriving meaning by context. If you have a sentence like "I met dasbasdiyb yesterday and they were upset with you" you can infer that it's probably a person's name, and something of what's going on. If you have a sentence like "dasnkdasun was in a adwiawdih with aindsida in adsuindasnu!" it's harder to pick up what each of these things is, not just because there are four times as many things to learn but because each lacks the contextual cues. Games like this tend to be fairly long, which is great, but I don't really have the free time to learn the range of peoples, places, creatures, gods & phenomena before starting, and for me personally it made parts of the game (particularly the opening) more opaque than engaging.

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I wonder why people find it hard to read, interpret and dwell on what they are about to say before speaking their mind.

 

I am entitled to state my opinion about the game or the setting, whether it is negative or positive, and that is exactly what I am doing here. There is nothing daring about that. I might as well say that I do not enjoy guns or monks being in a fantasy world, I did not, but I sure can.

 

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"I am trying to draw attention to pseudo-language vs. other forms of creativity and elements of immersion, where both uses resources from the same pool and stating that in my opinion other forms of creativity and elements of immersion adds more value to a product compared to utilizing a pseudo-language." 

 

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If one is not entitled to speak what they do not like, then every creation must be accepted as flawless, whether it is an art, or a book, or a game, or a fantasy setting or a piece of music.

 

First you take on this zealous attitude of defending what is already there (some do this blindly, some actually provide reasons which is perfectly fine), then you wonder why products of the gaming industry have become so shallow, so cliche!

 

Consumer 1: "I do not enjoy what is done with the language"

 

Consumer Mob: "It is perfectly fine, you do not understand what you are talking about"

 

Consumer 2: "I think combat could be better"

 

Consumer Mob: "No it is perfectly fine, you are stupid, if you can do better do it yourself ...rabble rabble..."

 

Consumer 3: "It seems to me you skimmed off from the storytelling"

 

Consumer Mob: "...rabble rabble...We like it, it is the perfect length, do not play it if you do not like it ...rabble rabble..."

 

Consumer 4: "I believe classes and abilities need improvement, it lacks some complexity"

 

Consumer Mob: "...rabble rabble... no it does not, you need to get used to it ..rabble rabble..."

 

Now if I were a game developer and I saw this, I would feel absolutely no pressure of thriving to make a better product release, I have done just fine. In fact I can even do less and people will love it anyhow.

 

Same goes with art, literature, movies, music etc...

 

 

 

Then why did you declare how Fantasy worked hmmm?  Because you did, you made a sweeping statement about how fantasy should work, and I called you out on it.  I did not zealously defend the game, nice strawman, I called you out on a fallacious statement of yours.  Feel free to apologise whenever

 

Now, onto your false dichotomy, which was an obvious attempt at diverting away from above but I feel like having fun deconstructing you, about not criticising something leading to shallow games, no one stated that you can't criticise, but first of all your opinion on the use of language in the game is purely your preferences, I LIKE the use of language and naming in this game, so how does your criticism improve it?  On the contrary, your criticism actually tries to make the game more like everything else and therefore more shallow.  Nice job.  Second, who the hell said not to criticise the game?  Strawmanning again are we?

 

Well much more simply put that is "your criticism is not immune to criticism".

 

@guguma

Nobody is breaking knees for saying they don't like something. Nobody is telling you you can't talk. Just as you are allowed to criticize so is everyone allowed to criticize you.

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It's good to criticize things you love.

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Then why did you declare how Fantasy worked hmmm?  Because you did, you made a sweeping statement about how fantasy should work, and I called you out on it.  I did not zealously defend the game, nice strawman, I called you out on a fallacious statement of yours.  Feel free to apologise whenever

1) Quote my statement where I oh so blatantly declared how fantasy should work.

 

2) If you are trying to deconstruct me make a meaningful statement about:

 

"I am trying to draw attention to pseudo-language vs. other forms of creativity and elements of immersion, where both uses resources from the same pool and stating that in my opinion other forms of creativity and elements of immersion adds more value to a product compared to utilizing a pseudo-language."

 

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The problem I found with the language in the game wasn't really with any specific name or term, but rather that there was a tendency to use multiple unfamiliar terms in a sentence which inhibited deriving meaning by context. If you have a sentence like "I met dasbasdiyb yesterday and they were upset with you" you can infer that it's probably a person's name, and something of what's going on. If you have a sentence like "dasnkdasun was in a adwiawdih with aindsida in adsuindasnu!" it's harder to pick up what each of these things is, not just because there are four times as many things to learn but because each lacks the contextual cues. Games like this tend to be fairly long, which is great, but I don't really have the free time to learn the range of peoples, places, creatures, gods & phenomena before starting, and for me personally it made parts of the game (particularly the opening) more opaque than engaging.

 

Agreed.

 

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@Ieldra:

 

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@guguma:

 

You can't reasonably expect people to adapt to your culture if your're travelling in the domain of their's.

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I think you misunderstood my sarcasm, if you are referring to my statement about traveling through Denmark.

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I'd like to see an example of a sentence in-game that is loaded with so many unfamiliar terms you can't make out what it means. 

 

And no, being 'confused' by duc doesn't count, because it's pretty easy to figure it out whether you know the actual historical relationship or not. 

 

Nobody should be expected to know the etymology of duke/duc of vampire/fampyr. It was only raised because you made an erroneous argument that such derivations are nonsensical.

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Then why did you declare how Fantasy worked hmmm?  Because you did, you made a sweeping statement about how fantasy should work, and I called you out on it.  I did not zealously defend the game, nice strawman, I called you out on a fallacious statement of yours.  Feel free to apologise whenever

1) Quote my statement where I oh so blatantly declared how fantasy should work.

 

2) If you are trying to deconstruct me make a meaningful statement about:

 

"I am trying to draw attention to pseudo-language vs. other forms of creativity and elements of immersion, where both uses resources from the same pool and stating that in my opinion other forms of creativity and elements of immersion adds more value to a product compared to utilizing a pseudo-language."

 

1. http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78741-an-honest-but-harsh-review-on-the-setting/?p=1684373

 

Do not cross the barrier between a fantasy world and the real one. Languages evolve, thus some utterance ends up being "beef". There is no justification for such evolution in a fantasy world.

 

So here you have made the statement that we should not 'cross the barrier' between real and fantasy.  Why not?  What gives you the right to make such an assertation?  And what exactly qualifies as 'fantasy' and not 'reality'?  Lots of reality in fantasy I'm sorry to say, did you know swords are real?  And then you finish off with the statement that there is no justification for such evolution in a fantasy world, based on what exactly?  Last time I checked, a fantasy world is constructed according to the rules established by the author, not some authority such as yourself who dictates what can and cannot be in fantasy.

 

2.  There is nothing meaningful to be said about that because there is nothing meaningful about it.  No attention is needed to be brought to it because it is something you either like or don't, the only issue is that you seem to think that because you don't like it then it's obviously something wrong, when it's really just a matter of taste (and your lack of it :p ).

  • Like 1

"That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail

"Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams

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I find the world to be wonderfully designed, with great balance between the familar, the new, and the "familiaresque," which I think is what is bothering OP.  Of course, I am, "that guy," who tries to pronounce the names of all the Spanish named streets and cities in their Spanish/Mexican pronunciation...and am considered a complete outsider by the locals even though I was a local (lol).   But what has been said above by some rings true, try to learn the culture and then you will start to recognize the words as not abnormal at all. 

 

Sure, maybe this world is similar to past worlds, but it is a whole new world with different cultures and it takes some time learn it.  But here is a quesion:

 

How many of the history books did you read? I am totally fine with someone not reading the history books, I totally get that...but if you haven't, then perhaps you have lost a little of your credential to "review" the setting.  Not that it is completely invalid, but I would be curious to see an honest review from someone who spent a lot of time reading and learning about the history of the world and where the modern (in game) world has come from.

Edited by Mhantra

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