What exactly does Flail do? And is Aumaua +1 weapon slot of any use?

[The Josip]

1. I read in the forum it reduces the deflection bonus of the shield which makes sense, and it also fits the description of the flail. Wiki however says: "+ 30 % grazes to hit range". Is this one of the cases where Wiki is talking nonsense? I quite like flail as a weapon, it looks cool, and it's unorthodox, and would like to use it.

 

2. I know many say Aumaua racial bonus of +1 weapon is useless unless constantly switching ranged weapons, but wouldn't this be a perfectly OK option for melee dps class? I mean, Human racial bonus gives what, +15% dmg and some accuracy when endurance drops below 50%. I think overall the ability to switch weapon in battle depending on the current enemy would give bigger bonus- even if I'm a monk and already have fists as well. For example, I need reach weapon because positioning failed - weapon switch. Then I get hit hard and I need leech weapon - weapon switch. Then I need weapon with different attack (slash / crush / pierce) because enemy group doesn't consist of one enemy type, then I need more accuracy so I switch to fist+1handed in off-hand. And if flail works then against shield enemy I switch to flail. I know some of this might be avoided by knowing the enemy stats but I don't want to browse a website before every battle on a first playthrough. And I also don't want to spend 1min before every battle switching everything cause time is valuable. If however +1 weapon slot is really not needed then what is better for a monk:

 

- Coastal Aumaua

- Dwarf

- Pale Elf

- Human

- A mix of coastal/dwarf/elf to not put all eggs in one basket regarding resistances)

 

I'm not interested in other racials because for melee dps wood elf is useless, godlike race is so ugly (no wonder considering all the gods in this game are twisted and none seem normal), and that gremlin race is just as repulsive.

[gkathellar]

What kind of monk are you looking to play? Heavy tank, or light DPS offtank thing?

 

 

and that gremlin race is just as repulsive.

 

oh no you didn't

[Valeris]

 

I'm not interested in other racials because for melee dps wood elf is useless,

No it is not.

[Crucis]

Having an additional weapon slot can be useful in a number of ways.

 

1. If the character is using guns, you could use 2 slots for guns and after firing the first one, switch to the second one which should have already been loaded prior to combat.

 

2. If the character is a melee-er, it doesn't hurt to have a couple of choices of melee weapons (even if you reserve one for ranged combat).  I could see going with one blunt weapon and one slashing or piercing weapon, and/or a mix of 1H weapon and shield in one slot and a 2H weapon in the second slot.

 

I actually spent a talent to unlock a 3rd weapon slot for Eder (my primary tank) so that he can have a 1H and shield option and a 2H weapon option.  In most battles, he sticks with the 1H/shield for maximum tanking.  But occasionally, one runs up against an enemy that's so tough that you need the extra offensive punch of a 2H weapon.

[G2Revelation]

The flail does change 30% Grazes to Hits which is definitely good. I'd argue it's one of the better weapon properties. 

 

"Wood" Elf racial is amazing for DPS if you're a ranged character. 

[Luckmann]

 

 

I'm not interested in other racials because for melee dps wood elf is useless,

No it is not.

 

 

I'm not challenging your position, but I am questioning it, because I want to hear your opinion on it. In what way is the Wood Elf bonus not useless for Melee DPS?

[KDubya]

Bottom line up front = the effect is negligible, use flails if you think they are cool or like the enchantments.

 

The flail thing works kinda like this:

 

If your accuracy=deflection you get

 

0-15 miss

 

16-50 graze for 1/2 damage, interrupt, and effect

 

51-100 hit for normal attack

 

100+ gets a crit with +50% damage, interrupt and effect

 

As shown the graze range is 16-50 or 35%. The flail makes 30% of the grazes into hits. In effect a flail will graze on a 16-39 and hit on a 40-100.

 

Average damage would be miss +0, graze 35% x 0.5 = + 0.175 and 50% x 1 = .5 for 0.675 damage total

 

A flail will get miss +0, graze 24% x 0.5 = 0.12 and 60% x 1 = 0.6 for a total of 0.72 damage an increase of around 6.6%

 

Different ratios of deflection to accuracy will influence the relative merit of the flail.

[The Josip]

What kind of monk are you looking to play? Heavy tank, or light DPS offtank thing?

 

A group of 6 light dps masochists, or wounded beasts, in Hard ironman.

 

 

oh no you didn't

 

Edited April 11, 2015 by The Josip

[Blovski]

Yeah, extra weapon slot usefulness is either the gunner build which switches between three or four arquebuses to start the fight or Estoc + Pollaxe + Ranged, which is very useful for anyone with adventurer weapon group. At least, that's how I did it as a Barb. Meaningful differences in damage having different slaying options as well.

[gkathellar]

The flail does change 30% Grazes to Hits which is definitely good. I'd argue it's one of the better weapon properties.

 

It's too bad it's a fast weapon, though. Said ability would be a lot more useful with higher base damage.

[The Josip]

OK racial issue is solved.
 

I did some testing and lvl12 Moon with 18 Might (Might does affect the healing) heals 53 Endurance per each wave. This is insane. So I will still go with godlike, and thankfully the Moon one looks the best of them all and I think there's one without horns.

 

Yeah, extra weapon slot usefulness is either the gunner build which switches between three or four arquebuses

 

I already tried that trick and while it's very effective it's extremely time demanding. I mean, if people have time to play 3 battles for 3 hours then ok but I can't.. Unless there's a hotkey for weapon switch instead of manually mouse-clicking.

[Infares]

 

 

 

I'm not interested in other racials because for melee dps wood elf is useless,

No it is not.

 

 

I'm not challenging your position, but I am questioning it, because I want to hear your opinion on it. In what way is the Wood Elf bonus not useless for Melee DPS?

Because even in melee you have the reflex and deflection bonuses against distant attackers.

[Laz0r]

-snip-

and that gremlin race is just as repulsive.

You will never be forgiven.

 

To answer your question (my opinion, anyway)

 

- Coastal Aumaua

- Dwarf

- Pale Elf

- Human

 

In my opinion, for a tanking character it goes

 

Wild Orlan > Pale Elf = Mountain Dwarf > Coastal Aumaua > Everything Else

 

For Melee DPS I'd say

 

Hearth Orlan > Boreal Dwarf (Situational) > Death Godlike > Everything Else

 

Then for ranged DPS

 

Wood Elf > Hearth Orlan > Boreal Dwarf > Death Godlike > Everything Else

[Infares]

Each race has different niches in which it's good. Coastal Aumaua and Hearth Orlan are fine as DPS-ish off tanks, (The former because they retain decent Stun/Paralysis resistance even with mediocre Constitution, the latter due to their hit upgrade passive). 

Coastal Aumaua I'd argue are better than mountain dwarves, situationally, as loss of control effects are more dire on principle than DoTs. 

Even wood elves aren't that bad, their defensive bonus vs distant enemies are "always on" and usually relevant even if the wood elf in question is engaged in melee, as long as the ranged enemies are still targeting them.

[Incendax]

Wood Elf racial is GREAT for ranged DPS.
It is also pretty solid for a Tank.
But Melee DPS are going to be mechanically better off with a different race.
You shouldn't be attacked by ranged enemies with great frequency.

[Climhazzard]

I actually think human works very well with monk, unless their health is falling out of control, if you are dumping intelligence though human probably isn't a good choice.

 

3 weapon slots can be handy for some specs, like on Kana I give him adventurer spec and sort of make him a jack of all trades, one set is a warbow, another is the estoc, and the last is a endurance drain flail/shield.  But eventually you'd want to focus on one playstyle, like one hand/shield, two hand, or marksman.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Climhazzard

[Luckmann]

 

 

 

 

I'm not interested in other racials because for melee dps wood elf is useless,

No it is not.

 

 

I'm not challenging your position, but I am questioning it, because I want to hear your opinion on it. In what way is the Wood Elf bonus not useless for Melee DPS?

Because even in melee you have the reflex and deflection bonuses against distant attackers.

 

 

Well that's.. well.. if not useless, then useless enough to be rounded down to useless, compared to what you'd get if you stayed at range.

[Infares]

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not interested in other racials because for melee dps wood elf is useless,

No it is not.

 

 

I'm not challenging your position, but I am questioning it, because I want to hear your opinion on it. In what way is the Wood Elf bonus not useless for Melee DPS?

Because even in melee you have the reflex and deflection bonuses against distant attackers.

 

 

Well that's.. well.. if not useless, then useless enough to be rounded down to useless, compared to what you'd get if you stayed at range.

Eh, up to interpretation. Most of the real threats in the game seem to be ranged, regardless of whether your character is itself ranged or melee, so there's that. Especially since Elves get +1 perception and deflection/reflex are probably the most useful defenses against some of the most dangerous attacks and spells.

[Ichthyic]

 

Most of the real threats in the game seem to be ranged

not my experience.

 

only times any of my characters got close to unconscious on hard mode, it was because of melee attackers.  early on phantoms, ogres and the ocasional uber kith, later on high level fampyrs and things like... dragons.  I can't recall any time my characters were getting a lot of damage from physical ranged attackers.  oh, and traps.  got knocked out by traps a couple of times.

 

 

[Infares]

 

 

Most of the real threats in the game seem to be ranged

not my experience.

 

only times any of my characters got close to unconscious on hard mode, it was because of melee attackers.  early on phantoms, ogres and the ocasional uber kith, later on high level fampyrs and things like... dragons.  I can't recall any time my characters were getting a lot of damage from physical ranged attackers.  oh, and traps.  got knocked out by traps a couple of times.

Wasn't talking about physical ranged attackers. Was talking about "distant enemies" that target deflection or reflex with spells and debuffs.

[gkathellar]

 

 

 

Most of the real threats in the game seem to be ranged

not my experience.

 

only times any of my characters got close to unconscious on hard mode, it was because of melee attackers.  early on phantoms, ogres and the ocasional uber kith, later on high level fampyrs and things like... dragons.  I can't recall any time my characters were getting a lot of damage from physical ranged attackers.  oh, and traps.  got knocked out by traps a couple of times.

Wasn't talking about physical ranged attackers. Was talking about "distant enemies" that target deflection or reflex with spells and debuffs.

 

 

I find that the best way to deal with those is to get them into melee range, though.

 

Moreover, on characters for whom deflection matters, Reflex tends to be sky-high due to shields.

 

Not saying Wood Elves are useless at melee range, but ... I dunno, if you're looking to go defensive, Pale Elf is probably better.

[Infares]

 

 

 

 

Most of the real threats in the game seem to be ranged

not my experience.

 

only times any of my characters got close to unconscious on hard mode, it was because of melee attackers.  early on phantoms, ogres and the ocasional uber kith, later on high level fampyrs and things like... dragons.  I can't recall any time my characters were getting a lot of damage from physical ranged attackers.  oh, and traps.  got knocked out by traps a couple of times.

Wasn't talking about physical ranged attackers. Was talking about "distant enemies" that target deflection or reflex with spells and debuffs.

 

 

I find that the best way to deal with those is to get them into melee range, though.

 

Moreover, on characters for whom deflection matters, Reflex tends to be sky-high due to shields.

 

Not saying Wood Elves are useless at melee range, but ... I dunno, if you're looking to go defensive, Pale Elf is probably better.

I was only arguing that they're not useless. They're better tanks than humans and dwarves, for instance. They might be comparable to Pale Elf though because a graze at normal DR might be better than a hit at +10 DR, and a miss is a miss (considering most fire and ice attacks are from distant enemies and are usually fended by Reflex).

[Laz0r]

 

 

 

 

 

Most of the real threats in the game seem to be ranged

not my experience.

 

only times any of my characters got close to unconscious on hard mode, it was because of melee attackers.  early on phantoms, ogres and the ocasional uber kith, later on high level fampyrs and things like... dragons.  I can't recall any time my characters were getting a lot of damage from physical ranged attackers.  oh, and traps.  got knocked out by traps a couple of times.

Wasn't talking about physical ranged attackers. Was talking about "distant enemies" that target deflection or reflex with spells and debuffs.

 

 

I find that the best way to deal with those is to get them into melee range, though.

 

Moreover, on characters for whom deflection matters, Reflex tends to be sky-high due to shields.

 

Not saying Wood Elves are useless at melee range, but ... I dunno, if you're looking to go defensive, Pale Elf is probably better.

I was only arguing that they're not useless. They're better tanks than humans and dwarves, for instance. They might be comparable to Pale Elf though because a graze at normal DR might be better than a hit at +10 DR, and a miss is a miss (considering most fire and ice attacks are from distant enemies and are usually fended by Reflex).

 

Kind of disagree with you here, Dwarves have a innate bonus to poison and disease, which can be a bitch in a lot of instances.

[Infares]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Most of the real threats in the game seem to be ranged

not my experience.

 

only times any of my characters got close to unconscious on hard mode, it was because of melee attackers.  early on phantoms, ogres and the ocasional uber kith, later on high level fampyrs and things like... dragons.  I can't recall any time my characters were getting a lot of damage from physical ranged attackers.  oh, and traps.  got knocked out by traps a couple of times.

Wasn't talking about physical ranged attackers. Was talking about "distant enemies" that target deflection or reflex with spells and debuffs.

 

 

I find that the best way to deal with those is to get them into melee range, though.

 

Moreover, on characters for whom deflection matters, Reflex tends to be sky-high due to shields.

 

Not saying Wood Elves are useless at melee range, but ... I dunno, if you're looking to go defensive, Pale Elf is probably better.

I was only arguing that they're not useless. They're better tanks than humans and dwarves, for instance. They might be comparable to Pale Elf though because a graze at normal DR might be better than a hit at +10 DR, and a miss is a miss (considering most fire and ice attacks are from distant enemies and are usually fended by Reflex).

 

Kind of disagree with you here, Dwarves have a innate bonus to poison and disease, which can be a bitch in a lot of instances.

Those are a lot more situational than getting pelted from range by deflection or reflex fended attacks, though, IMO. Also, defensively, +1 Perception is better than +1 Con.

[Luckmann]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Most of the real threats in the game seem to be ranged

not my experience.

 

only times any of my characters got close to unconscious on hard mode, it was because of melee attackers.  early on phantoms, ogres and the ocasional uber kith, later on high level fampyrs and things like... dragons.  I can't recall any time my characters were getting a lot of damage from physical ranged attackers.  oh, and traps.  got knocked out by traps a couple of times.

Wasn't talking about physical ranged attackers. Was talking about "distant enemies" that target deflection or reflex with spells and debuffs.

 

 

I find that the best way to deal with those is to get them into melee range, though.

 

Moreover, on characters for whom deflection matters, Reflex tends to be sky-high due to shields.

 

Not saying Wood Elves are useless at melee range, but ... I dunno, if you're looking to go defensive, Pale Elf is probably better.

I was only arguing that they're not useless. They're better tanks than humans and dwarves, for instance. They might be comparable to Pale Elf though because a graze at normal DR might be better than a hit at +10 DR, and a miss is a miss (considering most fire and ice attacks are from distant enemies and are usually fended by Reflex).

 

Kind of disagree with you here, Dwarves have a innate bonus to poison and disease, which can be a bitch in a lot of instances.

Those are a lot more situational than getting pelted from range by deflection or reflex fended attacks, though, IMO. Also, defensively, +1 Perception is better than +1 Con.

 

 

While I do not disagree, it should be noted that +1 Perception is only better than +1 Constitution if you actually plan to fully max out Perception, otherwise it's just a free point to redistribute, same as any other Attribute. And you only want to max Perception if you're going to tank.

 

So if you are going for melee DPS, it doesn't matter in the least.