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Karmashock

Wish there were an option to remove resting restrictions

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I cannot speak for the other classes, I can only speak about wizards since that is my primary class and the only one I have seen people really have issues with.  The wizard is clearly broken compared to the other classes because of the rest mechanic.  Saying to ignore my character and just stick with other characters is silly.  I picked wizard because that is what I wanted to play, but thanks to the system you do not play that, you play a bad gunslinger instead.  It is just not fun.  Again, can easily be fixed with an option to turn off rest limits.  Having to resort to a mod to fix the broken system does not fix the broken system.

I'm playing a Wizard and this is only limiting for the first few levels. You have 2 per-encounter uses of a irresistible damage + Daze Foe AoE effect which you should generally start with at low levels (save your spells for when it matters). Once you reach level 5, you have enough spells to cast 1 or so per easy encounter and run out at about the time you need to rest anyway because your characters are low on health. At character level 9, the level 1 spells become per-encounter and health becomes the limiting factor.

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Resting should go away just make the partyb fresh after each combat and reduce the trash fight amount, need some decent fights.

 

i ve been hearing that lighthouse is difficult etc, then i just walked over this fight... losing interest rapidly

 

2 rest + loading screens time wasting + ironman = gg wp

 

i just iroll20s rest

 

Then why in the world are you playing ironman of all things?

 

I can certainly understand folks being unhappy at the resting system (for myself, I think it works fairly well, but I can certainly understand the objections to it), but choosing to add optional components that make the problem worse without otherwise impacting the difficulty of the game such as Ironman seems...  Very, very counterproductive to say the least.

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I saw this topic and had to come in.

 

I'm fairly amazed that people have an issue with this.

 

To get to town all you have to do is walk to the edge of a rather smallish map and fast travel to town.  I think it must take about a minute or two at most. 

 

I remember playing games like Everquest and you had to sit for 5 to 10 minutes getting your HP/Mana back.

 

I believe the reason it's in the game is so that you have to visit an inn once in a while.  This simulates what adventures would have to do in reality to refresh themselves.

 

I kind of liked the way BG/Icewind Dale did it better with unlimited rests, but with the possibility of having a random encounter.

 

With that said the system in place is not a bad one IMO.  Not on the merit that it takes a long time to get back to town. 

 

I just wish it was more meaningful in terms of the impact it has on the game. 

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I'm not sure I understand the difficulty metric being tied to the amount of camping supplies you can carry...   Everyone understands that the only thing in RPGs that you can convincingly "make more difficult" is the combat... ;)  You can't somehow make the story itself more 'difficult', of course--that's not even a rational idea--and the whole notion of levels of difficulty indicates the game is getting confused--is it an RPG or is it an FPS? etc.  Someone else mentioned that the idea of a limitless stash alongside of a very limited capacity for "camping supplies" was a bit illogical--it is.  An ideal RPG should naturally progress from "extremely easy" all the way to "difficult" at the end, with your cast of characters advancing and gaining skills as they go--difficulty should ratchett up with character development (otherwise, what point is there in the 'character development' part of an RPG?)  Tying camping supplies to difficulty is a gimmicky way to increase "difficulty", imo.

 

One thing the game does very well: it doesn't tie fights and killing things blindly to carte blanche experience points...!  (The one thing I liked a lot about the Might and Magic games (not "Heroes")--you got the advancements through completing the game's quests.)

 

Aside from the camping supply limits, the other thing that bothers me about the game is the absence of healing spells/potions.  If you are not cheating, then this construction means you have to rest often, which then runs you slam into the camping supply limits.  The healing "utilities" that exist in the game that actually affect health are nice, but they are far too weak.  Either the game should maintain the present camping-supply limits, and introduce healing potions & spells; or do away with the camping-supply limits and leave things as they are with regard to healing potions & spells.  The third option would be to greatly buff up the healing utilities so that they'd be meaningful.

Edited by waltc

It's very well known that I don't make mistakes, so if you should stumble across the odd error here and there in what I have written, you may immediately deduce--quite correctly--that I did not write it... :biggrin:

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tl;dr: "Wish there were an option to remove consequences because I suck."

Edited by Tartantyco

"You're a fool if you believe I would trust your benevolence. Step aside and you and your lackeys will be unhurt."


 


 


Baldur's Gate portraits for Pillars of Eternity   IXI   Icewind Dale portraits for Pillars of Eternity   IXI   Icewind Dale 2 portraits for Pillars of Eternity


 


[slap Aloth]

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I expect this issue is less of a problem at higher levels.  Lower levels are also where a game needs to put its best foot forward. Folks who find a game unfun at lower levels are folks less likely to finish the game and/or buy DLC or a company's future offerings.

 

There is a huge gap between wanting "constantly" to be casting spells and not feeling that you can cast at all because you don't know what the game's going to throw at you down the road, so you need to conserve your meager resources for a more difficult fight that may or may not materialize. One approach to improving caster effectiveness and enjoyability at low levels would be to bump implement and blast effectiveness a bit. Another would be to introduce cantrip-level spells, i.e. weaker spells with a variety of casting modes and effects usable per encounter.  This would also encourage experimentation with things like positioning your wizard to cast a cone spell.

 

Allowing the equivalent of "common room" rest via conversation with the stronghold steward would also reduce loading screens.

 

Even if these changes were implemented, I'd still dislike the supplies mechanic, because it causes me to feel leashed rather than free to explore and for me the fun of games derives primarily from seeing what's hidden behind that next hill.  I want to feel that I need to pay attention, that combat is varied and non-trivial, but feeling crammed into a little box because a developer wants to ensure "proper" play makes me want to play something else.

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If you want to destroy the game, use mods. Leave great mechanics alone. Wandering monsters = quickload. Camping supplies are everywhere, just look closely.  We must protect Pillars from poisonous cycle of simplification. <Wary Defender, Repulsing Seal, Ardous Delay of Motion>

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If you want to destroy the game, use mods. Leave great mechanics alone. Wandering monsters = quickload. Camping supplies are everywhere, just look closely.  We must protect Pillars from poisonous cycle of simplification. <Wary Defender, Repulsing Seal, Ardous Delay of Motion>

Simplification?  We asked for a game like the old RPG's which allowed you to rest anytime(not saying it was perfect, but its a million times better than this bad POE bad design).  This isn't simplification, this is just unnecessary unfun timesink forced on people needlessly.  Not asking to remove it for everybody, just an option to turn it off for people who find it unfun and breaks the fun of the game.   How does the option hurt anybody in a singleplayer game?  

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How does the option hurt anybody in a singleplayer game?

Ive seen it argued, and Im not making this up, that the mere existence of the option causes some people to lose all gross motor skills and forces them to click buttons they don't want to, even at the detriment of their own gaming enjoyment. They literally cannot stop themselves from using it so the only possible solution is for the option to not exist. Theres nothing you can say to that. shrugnz9.gif

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You can use the console.

Hit the ~ button (upper left on american key boards)

Hit "enter"

Type " iroll20s "

Hit Enter (notice this will disable achievements)

Hit Enter again

Type "Rest"

Hit Enter

 

Voila - resting now.

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If you find that you need more camping supplies than you can carry, you're playing on too hard of a difficulty setting.  There are places you can rest in dungeons without any limits.  There are more than enough camping supplies laying around in dungeons. 

 

There is an overall strategy beyond each individual encounter.  Making rests too available would nullify this aspect of the game - that would be a bad thing.

 

If you have the simple option of more camping supplies, then you might as well ask for:

- Less enemies

- Enemies with less health

- Enemies do less damage

- Enemies hit you less

- Make it easier to hit the enemies

....

 

Oh wait, that's called easy mode.  I recommend switching to that or making an effort to grasp the strategy beyond winning a single fight.

 

Something that many people don't realise is that game balance in a single player game is still extremely important.  Every aspect has to be taken into account.  With the health system and per rest vs. per encounter system, how often the player can rest is critically important.  If you simply toss that aside, it eliminates a huge amount of balance.  The limit is an essential part of the difficulty setting.  Hard mode would not be hard if you had unlimited rests (not that it's really that hard now, but that isn't the point here).  It would be like having the option to disable enemy spells and special powers because they are "annoying" in PotD - well, guess what, you aren't playing PotD anymore.

 

There are a few options here:

- Select an easier difficult setting

- Learn the strategy that goes beyond winning a couple encounters

- Cheat (via console, mods, or whatever)

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If you find that you need more camping supplies than you can carry, you're playing on too hard of a difficulty setting.  There are places you can rest in dungeons without any limits.  There are more than enough camping supplies laying around in dungeons. 

 

There is an overall strategy beyond each individual encounter.  Making rests too available would nullify this aspect of the game - that would be a bad thing.

 

If you have the simple option of more camping supplies, then you might as well ask for:

- Less enemies

- Enemies with less health

- Enemies do less damage

- Enemies hit you less

- Make it easier to hit the enemies

....

 

Oh wait, that's called easy mode.  I recommend switching to that or making an effort to grasp the strategy beyond winning a single fight.

 

Something that many people don't realise is that game balance in a single player game is still extremely important.  Every aspect has to be taken into account.  With the health system and per rest vs. per encounter system, how often the player can rest is critically important.  If you simply toss that aside, it eliminates a huge amount of balance.  The limit is an essential part of the difficulty setting.  Hard mode would not be hard if you had unlimited rests (not that it's really that hard now, but that isn't the point here).  It would be like having the option to disable enemy spells and special powers because they are "annoying" in PotD - well, guess what, you aren't playing PotD anymore.

 

There are a few options here:

- Select an easier difficult setting

- Learn the strategy that goes beyond winning a couple encounters

- Cheat (via console, mods, or whatever)

That is a strawman and you know it.  Nobody (as far as I have seen) has asked for reduced enemies, easier enemies, or anything like that, and it is not a cheat because it is the EXACT same thing that was in previous RPG's.  The current system is just broken POS with a bad philosophy designed around it.  Again, I ask how putting in an OPTION in a SINGLEPLAYER game will affect you or anybody else?  It simply doesn't affect your game in any way, shape, or form than what it is now unless you just cannot control yourself and you have to click the checkmark in the options menu.  

 

Yes, there is a cheat command, but that does not fix the horrible game design that is baked into the game.  As for balance I disagree, the game is broken for wizards, your not playing a wizard, your playing a gunslinger.  Which reminds me, it is funny how enemy wizards are not nerfed by the system and do not need to stick to only rods and wands to attack.

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Okay. So a lot of the suggestions are to lower the difficulty so you don't run out of camping kits so often and you have an easier time in combat so that you don't need to rest anyway. However, there is a major flaw in that suggestion. Let me explain.

 

Some of us are not IE veterns that know what we're doing before we do it. Some of us are not very good at the game at all really and have been playing since we bought the game (for some that could mean much longer than average).

 

For me in particular, I play on the easiest setting and if I'm not careful I will get whiped out. I don't always know what I'm doing, and I don't always do everything right. Just because person A has no problems, but person B has minimal problem and I have major problem, then I should just ignore the fact that the camping kits feature leaves me wanting.

 

Not everyone plays the same, not everyone is the same person. So yes, there needs to be something changed there - either by Obsidian or by a modder - whether some people disagree or not, there will always be others that counter that - you can't make everything JUST for you. I'm sorry, but you can't. Unless you want to code your own game to be 'just for you' and no one else. But don't you push your views on someone else and expect them to do EXACTLY as you do, and see things EXACTLY as you do. Because it's not going to work, no matter which way you approach it.

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Actually, bringing up the number of enemies and power of enemies is not only valid, but it is extremely valid.  They are all equally part of the balancing act.  Changing one affects the others significantly.

 

- If you have less and/or less powerful enemies, you need rest less to recover from combat.

- If you have more enemies or more powerful enemies, you need to rest more to reover from combat.

 

This creates a new challenge that goes beyond defeating a single encounter.  It is defeating an entire dungeon - or leg of the adventure.  This, sadly, is something that many RPGs actually lack.

 

Rising to this challenge is the same as rising to the challenge of kiling an ogre, but your strategy will be different.  It will need to be bigger.  Defeating that ogre is now just a small part of that larger strategy and how you did it now becomes important.  Conservation of firepower is not something to be tossed aside.  As with spells, you also don't want your fighter's health to expire too quickly by taking to much damage in every encounter.  Managing health may be more straightforward - use better armor.  Picking the right spells at the right time, using only what is necessary, and knowing when your spells become necessary is definitely a higher level of gameplay that may take a little getting used to, granted.

 

I actually do use wizards, they are great, I also rarely need them to rest more often than the fighters in the party because I strategize to use spells in step with how hard my front line is getting hit.  Even on PoTD, I generally have 2 and almost never go below 1 camping supplies on hand.

 

If your idea of a wizard is constantly slinging super powered spells every chance they get, well, that is not how wizards work in this game.  The amount of spells they can cast is part of their class balance.  The ability to summon a burst of power comes at a cost - if it didn't, then there'd be no reason to use a class that has a constant medium level of power when you can just be running at ultra power the whole time.

 

Part of the experience is to go beyond the single encounter challenge and play/strategize on a higher (or bigger, if you want to call it that instead) level.  If anyone is still having a hard time of it on easy, I recommend reading some guides.

 

On a side note: Just because some other game's rules let you have unlimited rests in the wilderness does not mean that breaking the rules in this game is not cheating.  Breaking the rules is, by definition, cheating.

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The "rules" are bad design and forcing everybody to play a way that is the opposite of fun.  Not casuals, but long time RPG players.  The monsters are not really hard in POE, in fact someone pointed out that wizards actually slow your party down and its better not to include them at all and use other classes instead.  Let me repeat that, WIZARDS SLOW YOU DOWN COMPARED TO OTHER CLASSES.  The talk of balance is a joke, wizards got the shaft.  So you like to conserve your spells and use the rod or whatever instead?  Good for you, your not playing a wizard, but a gunslinger and probably using your other characters more than the wizard.  I would actually like to use my wizard to do wizard things.  It is not a cheat to ask them to fix their horrible broken rest system.

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It is not broken. It just doesn't work the way you want it to. I cast spells with my wizards in nearly every battle; the exceptions being battles too short to even cast anything. I still don't run out of camping supplies. Like I said, if you want to be constantly slinging spells at all times, you are playing the wrong game (though you are welcome to use a mod or the console to change that). You couldn't do it in Baldur's Gate (unless you rest spammed), so I don't know why you were expecting it in this game.

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People suggesting that they know why 'every single gamer' ever plays games is arrogant in itself, whether they want to admit it or not. I do not play games to seek out thrill or challenge - but I like it. I play different kinds of games for different reasons. I play Pillars of Eternity and similar games becuase they are interactive books to me and I'm a sucker for a superbly written story that lets me read it like a book and get swollowed up by the details. Exploration is also part of that for me. With Pillars of Eternity in particular, it also teaches me how to perceive realistic aspects that I didn't have access to without paying a bunch of money and going to college for, if you pay attention good enough. Because whoever wrote the story, and the mechanics in this game is very intelligent. I use some of the perception, resolve and intelligence that I learn through dialog here in the real world and it does have a presidence regardless of the real world not being fantasy, because I'm talking about the realistic or practical aspects of the games dialog features - not the fantasy magick part of it.

 

So for me this game is quite rich, and I personally don't care if I'm playing well or not - I just want to have a smoother ride when I get to situations that I need to go back and forth, it cuts out of the time that I get to roll around in the story and soak up the knowledge, excitement and richness in the character dialogs and interactive reading aspects of the games frontal story telling. I want to keep burrying myself into the rich story - every time I play. It's so good, I don't mind going through it all over and over and over again - because I love it that much.

 

For me, Pillars of Eternity is more than just a game, it's also a book, a story, poetic justice with dark, in between, and light tones. The artstyle is like an interactive digital painting worth millions or even billions of dollars to an artist, or priceless to the soul purpose of an artist. This is why I love Pillars of Eternity. It is 'real Magical' to the heart and soul and you end up caring about the characters that speak to your features.

 

Pillars of Eternity is my favorite game, and I wish I could have helped fund it as well so that I could have given the team just a little more to work with - because the game does have shortcummings that I'm sure they're working on now that they have made money on it, and quite a bit. I really hope there will be more ways for me in the future to help fund an expansion or changes to the game - or even a sequel, because the team definitely deserves it. This game is so amazing, I don't know a better way to describe it than I have today.

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Actually, bringing up the number of enemies and power of enemies is not only valid, but it is extremely valid.  They are all equally part of the balancing act.  Changing one affects the others significantly.

 

- If you have less and/or less powerful enemies, you need rest less to recover from combat.

- If you have more enemies or more powerful enemies, you need to rest more to reover from combat.

 

[...]

 

The fallacy of this line of argument, though, is the assumption that the only purpose of a game is for the player to successfully reach its end (i.e. to "beat the game"), and that everything which facilitates that in equal measure can be treated as zero-sum.

 

When actually, the real purpose of a game is to provide fun/enjoyment/stimulation to the player while playing it.

 

Most people complaining about the resting restrictions (myself included) tend to see it as a matter of "annoying vs fun", whereas those responding to defend the restrictions (like yourself) pretend it's a matter of "difficult vs easy".


"Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could believe them." -- attributed to George Orwell

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If you want to destroy the game, use mods. Leave great mechanics alone. Wandering monsters = quickload. Camping supplies are everywhere, just look closely.  We must protect Pillars from poisonous cycle of simplification. <Wary Defender, Repulsing Seal, Ardous Delay of Motion>

Simplification?  We asked for a game like the old RPG's which allowed you to rest anytime(not saying it was perfect, but its a million times better than this bad POE bad design).  This isn't simplification, this is just unnecessary unfun timesink forced on people needlessly.  Not asking to remove it for everybody, just an option to turn it off for people who find it unfun and breaks the fun of the game.   How does the option hurt anybody in a singleplayer game?  

 

Love the resting system + resource management, and I havn't been compelled to go back to the inn/castle since I just started learning the ropes. And whether it's bad design or not, really comes down whether the majority are using the resting system as intended i.e. by relying on their camping resources. So if people are backtracking like crazy, then it failed. If it's only a couple malcontents, then it's just too bad for them. 

 

That being said, I wouldn't mind if they included some further 'training wheels' difficulty setting for stuff like this, as long as the game still remains designed and balanced with tight resource-management in mind. 

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Resting supplies limit is lacking any logical explanation considering you can carry an unlimited amount of items in your stash. 

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How does the option hurt anybody in a singleplayer game?

Ive seen it argued, and Im not making this up, that the mere existence of the option causes some people to lose all gross motor skills and forces them to click buttons they don't want to, even at the detriment of their own gaming enjoyment. They literally cannot stop themselves from using it so the only possible solution is for the option to not exist. Theres nothing you can say to that. shrugnz9.gif

 

 

That's a really great point. This same reasoning is why I demand that the devs include a button on the GUI which insta-kills all enemies on the screen. What's to complain about, it's a single player game. If you don't want to use it then just don't push the instakill button!! Logic people, use it. :dancing:

 

 

For me in particular, I play on the easiest setting and if I'm not careful I will get whiped out. I don't always know what I'm doing, and I don't always do everything right. Just because person A has no problems, but person B has minimal problem and I have major problem, then I should just ignore the fact that the camping kits feature leaves me wanting.

 

This is pretty much the only compelling argument I've seen here. If enough people are needing to walk back to town all the time to rest while playing on Easy, then that would certainly suggest a problem. I'd say that if enough people playing on Easy were having this issue, then perhaps the number of supplies a person can carry and the number available should be increased on Easy, or perhaps the resting restriction could be removed completely from Easy mode only (or on a new, easier setting). I'm not sure how many people are having this problem, though, as most people posting in this thread complaining say that they're playing on Normal or Hard.

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"Forsooth, methinks you are no ordinary talking chicken!"

-Protagonist, Baldur's Gate

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I just preferred the way they handled it in Icewind Dale or planescape torment. You could rest as many times as you wanted. You just needed to find a relatively safe place. The problem is that those camping supplies packages are not terribly common and that means wizards etc have to be really careful about what spells they use because you can't just rest whenever you run out of spells.

 

Wizards have to be really careful about which spells to use... and that's bad ?

If you want a fairly mindless adrenaline rush, I recommend Nuclear Throne.

 

Just curious, what's the camping supplies limit on Easy ? On Normal it's 4. I'm playing on Hard now, limit is 2, and I haven't run out of supplies ever yet. By the time I spend some, I find some more.

Edited by b0rsuk

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I just preferred the way they handled it in Icewind Dale or planescape torment. You could rest as many times as you wanted. You just needed to find a relatively safe place. The problem is that those camping supplies packages are not terribly common and that means wizards etc have to be really careful about what spells they use because you can't just rest whenever you run out of spells.

 

Wizards have to be really careful about which spells to use... and that's bad ?

If you want a fairly mindless adrenaline rush, I recommend Nuclear Throne.

 

Just curious, what's the camping supplies limit on Easy ? On Normal it's 4. I'm playing on Hard now, limit is 2, and I haven't run out of supplies ever yet. By the time I spend some, I find some more.

 

I've ran out, but that's because I forget to stock up like all the time.  The only reason I manage to have any is because they can be found so easily, I rarely have to buy them. 


"That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail

"Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams

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Ive seen it argued, and Im not making this up, that the mere existence of the option causes some people to lose all gross motor skills and forces them to click buttons they don't want to, even at the detriment of their own gaming enjoyment. They literally cannot stop themselves from using it so the only possible solution is for the option to not exist. Theres nothing you can say to that. shrugnz9.gif

 

Not to go Dr. Phill and all, but that's actually how willpower works in the real world. If there is nothing to tempt you, then there is no temptation to overcome. And thus some people prefer if the devs simply removed them from the game in order not to kill their own enjoyment***. Adding an option for unlimited rest, also unbalances the game extremly in favour of Wizard, Priest and Druid, making them overpowered relative to the other classes, so it's going to change the whole game experience to some extent.

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