floyd ryan Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 That's the statement by Firedorn about the question if transsexual people are the target of his deceased joke, may it rest in peace: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/75387-controversial-limerick-discussion-2/?p=1632654 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Rabbit Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Now let me chechk if I see the situation correctly: backer of a high enough tier provided a joke for the game which some people of not really healthy mental state found to be offensive and started a ****storm over it. Ain't no one likes ****storms, as well as meddling with said "offended" people is far less than pleasant in USA, so Obsidian asked the backer if it is okay to remove the subject of controversy and, upon his agreement, replaced it with memorial joke. And now we have other people of just as much questionable mental health ****storming over in a whole different way as if it's the end of the free world or something. Did I miss anything? Also, where do normal person fit in here? Nice bug squashing there, Obsidian! Thanks a lot. Now I can at last return to playing this awesome game. Was going to reroll anyway. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Ansem Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) In light of Firedorn's post and that he was given the option of changing and he did so to prevent further **** storm, I have a lot of respect for him as a person for immediately saying "yes" but also to Obsidian for not making this mandatory. So, thanks I guess. That is correct and I will speak of it no further. But, I still don't like GG or other entities similar to it. Edited April 4, 2015 by Dark_Ansem 1 In-Development: Turn-Based cRPG, late backing OPEN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cahir Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) I think devs came out of this tricky situation choosing lesser evil. They could ignore these rants and put themselves for a hatred of some group of players. They could instead make a mandatory change, because it's their game (financed by backers, but still), but first thing they did is to ASK a guy who wrote the limerick if he's OK with changing it. I'm pretty sure that if he didn't consent to it, they would respect his decision and won't touch it. The only thing I do not like is the part of lack of vetting the content. I'm rather sure that devs also think the guy/girl overreacted out there on Twitter and the change was made only because of their fear about losing PR. If that so, they could just admit it "We made the change, because we don't want to upset this group of players who feels upset about some stuff our backers wrote". Saying it wasn't vetted enough is a bit like showing the rest of players a middle finger. I wasn't upset at all, and laughed heavily. And I do not have any problems with transgender people. It was just a damn good joke, that's all. So, to sum things up - I like they handled it with Firedorn, but I don't buy this vetting stuff. It was vetted all right. Edited April 4, 2015 by Cahir 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethorion Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Update by Feargus Urquhart, CEO and Brandon Adler, Lead Producer Backer Content It's come to our attention that a piece of backer-created content has made it into Pillars of Eternity that was not vetted. Once it was brought to our attention, it followed the same vetting process as all of our other content. Prior to release, we worked with many of our backers to iterate on content they asked to be put into the game that didn't strike the right tone. In the case of this specific content, we checked with the backer who wrote it and asked them about changing it. We respect our backers greatly, and felt it was our duty to include them in the process. They gave us new content which we have used to replace what is in the game. To be clear, we followed the process we would have followed had this content been vetted prior to the release of the product. We appreciate the faith you have all given us into making Pillars of Eternity the great game that it has become, and we appreciate the strength of conviction all of you bring to every conversation we have together. Sincerely, Feargus Urquhart, CEO Obsidian Entertainment, Inc. Wow. I gotta admit... if censorship like this is gonna be a general thing, i see a lot more of these people trying to censor things, because apparently their cryouts are enough to get things removed from the game. Yet murdering of children and adults is okay, magic, anti-religion and what not is also just fine, but something as harmless as this is not okay. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cluas Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Thanks for the patch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revisor Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) The original poem was misinterpreted: http://www.orderoflaibach.com/blog/screw-you-firedorn-lightbringer Some people's brains have learnt (been taught?) to see offending patterns everywhere, around every corner, between every line. Now that you have decided to give in to the complainers and remove it, what are you going to do when the perpetually offended come knocking on your Twitter door next time? What if next time it's about YOUR content? I think this sets a dangerous precedent. Edited April 4, 2015 by Revisor 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoxNoctum Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 So I take it this isn't out yet for GOG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardal Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 I think devs came out of this tricky situation choosing lesser evil. They could ignore these rants and put themselves for a hatred of some group of players. They could instead make a mandatory change, because it's their game (financed by backers, but still), but first thing they did is to ASK a guy who wrote the limerick if he's OK with changing it. I'm pretty sure that if he didn't consent to it, they would respect his decision and won't touch it. The only thing I do not like is the part of lack of vetting the content. I'm rather sure that devs also think the guy/girl overreacted out there on Twitter and the change was made only because of their fear about losing PR. If that so, they could just admit it "We made the change, because we don't want to upset this group of players who feels upset about some stuff our backers wrote". Saying it wasn't vetted enough is a bit like showing the rest of players a middle finger. I wasn't upset at all, and laughed heavily. And I do not have any problems with transgender people. It was just a damn good joke, that's all. So, to sum things up - I like they handled it with Firedorn, but I don't buy this vetting stuff. It was vetted all right. Obsidian should have just told people that were demanding censorship that the joke wasn't about transgender people and they weren't going to do anything about it. The people behind the drive to cencor the limerick are doing it to force people to curb their jokes, thoughts and art. Firedorn said "The joke wasn't targeted at trans-people, nor anyone in the LGBTQIA+ spectrum." When Obsidian as an entity decided to pursue Firedorn to change the Limerick because a third party had perceived it as a joke about transgender people they inadvertently make it easier for people to force their agendas on Obsidian in the future. As a company that creates art to bring joy to people who enjoy their products that are filled with adult content they should have chosen to side with free speech instead of caving to demands by someone who thinks #killallmen is a acceptable hashtag. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actionjezus6 Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) I think that people who cry "censorship" have no idea what censorship is, and how it differentiates from editing. First of all, if development studio does something you personally don't agree with, it's not yet censorship. Even if studio does it under public pressure, it's not yet a censorship. ( Here - Jim can explain it better than me - link ) What Obsidian did was politely asked joke author if they could remove it, and he agreed - that author agreed. Yep, I am going to repeat it for you guys - the author agreed. So it is as far from censorship as one can get. Besides, I quite don't get what people are ****storming about - all what was changed was a single, small and - for my tastes - not so funny joke. I didn't found the joke to be core experience of Eternity, or even remotely connected to reason why i am having fun playing it. Btw. I also found it to be not in the "mood" of game. Maybe if author of removed content would be against removing it, I could empathize a bit, but as it stand I really don't see much of an issue. From my point of view, the amount of people who's primary occupation is being offended is too high. Both sides are acting like spoiled children - adult, mature person can live with feeling that there is a joke he doesn't like in his game or a feeling that a single, not so funny joke was removed from his game. Edit: But after following the source of this change, I can't help but feel tiny-bit irritated. Does one angry person on twitter is all it takes to make Obsidian re-think their content ? Also, please read her other tweets. I think they can be more offensive than limerick. Edited April 4, 2015 by actionjezus6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImRhoven Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 You spelled "she" wrong. And last time I saw gators talk about Thompson they were saying how great a guy he really was. I know logically consistent arguments aren't gg's strong suit, but really. Sincerely, a backer who made Pillars of Eternity possible. Unlike you mr. sockpuppet. All these new accounts wihtout backer status coming out of the woodworks suddenly trying to give extra weight to a ****ty position ... typical gg "tactics". I didn't make the image, and technically, if the original creator chose to be politically correct which he may not have considering what passes for political correctness nowadays it would be "lady" not "she" since the original was "guy" not "he", but that's besides the point. I'll admit you are being very consistent, consistently assumptive and accusatory as to who and what I am, which is as you say typical SJW "tactics". What I expect from this thread: The Moderators will claim all of these posts criticizing the removal of the IG backers joke are OFF-TOPIC and either remove them or lock the thread despite the removal of the IG backers memorial being a part of the discussion. Besides the point yes. Didn't stop you from making it the focus of your reply. That did confirm that you are indeed no better than the whichever gg'er created that image though. So there's that. Good thing my consistency proved true, mr. sockpuppet. I really dislike the SJW label too. I've alway been more the mage/support type, so please do me the courtesy of using the "SJM" moniker when addressing me instead. Thanks. I like your unfounded preemptive parting shot about "censorship" though, must suck to constantly have your expectations fall through. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro Protagonist II Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 My only question is this: Has the bug that causes a trap to disappear when a second trap is laid been fixed yet? It's not a major game breaking bug, but it is a bit annoying to keep losing traps because I'm trying to lay out several but all but the most recent disappear completely. No, that bug is still in the current game. There were more pressing concerns with dev's spending time removing a limerick. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoxNoctum Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 I have a lot of games on GoG but none that were still receiving patches with any frequency when I bought them. How long does it normally take GoG to release their version of the patch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekaros Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 I still think Obsidian needs to give real answers about if joke was supported by them in the first place. And why they game in on twitter mob. And why they saw it required to contact person about it for possible change. Be honest with people and stop lying! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noroduil Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Minority's tyranny acting like they always do, being offended at all things that they see unfit for their points of view. Hardly surprised that Obsidian cave in, but extremely dissapointed. Shame on you Obsidian... a completely dark tone game with lots of things 1k more offensive than that joke.. I'll have to think seriously if I'll back or buy again any of your games if you have to censor your own game to favor people that desires the extinction of all male gender... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeJunta Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Guise, did it occur to you that maybe they had it changed because they didn't like it after someone pointed it out to them, regardless of her politics? Inconceivable, I know. 5 I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChipMHazard Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) Guise, did it occur to you that maybe they had it changed because they didn't like it after someone pointed it out to them, regardless of her politics? Inconceivable, I know. Actually that doesn't seem to have been the case. So, highly unlikely. To turn the question around "Gui, did it ever occur to you that they asked the backer for a change because of the outcry? Inconceiveable, I know." Obsidian choose what they percieved as being the lesser of two evils. I just hope that they made the right choice, business wise. Edited April 4, 2015 by ChipMHazard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekaros Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Guise, did it occur to you that maybe they had it changed because they didn't like it after someone pointed it out to them, regardless of her politics? Inconceivable, I know. Actually that doesn't seem to have been the case. So, highly unlikely. To turn the question around "Gui, did it ever occur to you that they asked the backer for a change because of the outcry? Inconceiveable, I know." Obsidian choose what they percieved as being the lesser of two evils. I just hope that they made the right choice, business wise. True, it's their choice and their current PR spin stands, I know what my actions will be. I don't think they did things right and it might come to hurt them in long run. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardal Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Guise, did it occur to you that maybe they had it changed because they didn't like it after someone pointed it out to them, regardless of her politics? Inconceivable, I know. It's a limerick/joke, not everyone is going to like jokes in general. But forcing the creator of the limerick to change it because someone perceives it as an attack towards transger people OR because someone at Obsidian didn't like it is still absurd stance to take. Just think about it, someone went through all those backer notes and decided that this one was worth outrage and then when it's removed the reason isn't going to be "we didn't like the limerick, please make a better one please.". I just personally wish someone at Obsidian had actually looked in to the people who were complaining about it and had the spine to stop the process of cencoring the limerick. At same time they forced the backed into impossible situation of either stand up to the company he was such a huge supporter that he paid 500$ or more, or betraying his own principles like he ended up doing. Everyone should have the freedom to express themselves however they want, be it written, visual or audio. That goes for both artists and their critics. If someone puts up something controversial, then they should expect that some people won’t like it. The right to express your opinion is the same as a person’s right to express themselves artistically. Asking for censorship, however, goes against all that...especially when you don't know a god damned thing about the context of the art piece. -Firedorn http://www.orderoflaibach.com/blog/screw-you-firedorn-lightbringer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChipMHazard Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 (edited) I don't really blame them for the PR statement on this, even if I generally dislike PR nonsense. Had they been honest it could possibly have been used against them. Given the circumstances this was probably the best we could hope for. Edited April 4, 2015 by ChipMHazard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnyxIdol Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 I see a few people saying that the original limerick had nothing to do with transgender people. Just thought I'd throw in my two cents to try and explain how the other camp sees it. For male-to-female transgender people in particular, being "found out" can have really dangerous consequences, and many, many of them have been killed because men find out they're transgender and fly off the handle. Not because the women led them on or "tricked" them, just because the men felt insecure or embarrassed about having displayed interest toward or had sex with someone they now perceive as male. Google Gwen Araujo, Nireah Johnson, Angie Zapata, Dee Dee Pierson... it's a legit concern in many transgender women's day-to-day lives and something they have to think about whenever a man shows sexual or romantic interest in them. Jokes like "a man found out the woman he slept with was actually male and freaked out, har har" perpetuate the idea that it's reasonable to freak out after mistaking a man for a woman, or a transgender woman for a "biological" woman. I agree that the limerick could refer to something else in the game world -- hell, maybe a man just put on a magical Girdle of Femininity or something, no transgender people need to be involved for it to make sense -- but to the people who were offended, the limerick perpetuates the idea that "gay panic" or "trans panic" is something funny/acceptable, and I think that's what many were objecting to. As a transgender man, the limerick made me roll my eyes, because it's the kind of stupid **** I had to hear over and over again when I was younger. I wouldn't write to the devs about it, but I can see how others would be disappointed to see it, and I'm impressed both by the devs for taking action and by the backer who wrote the limericks for reacting with humor to the situation. Nice to see someone make a calm and reasonable contribution to this mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ztirual Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Oh my... How very frail most minds must be, with its illusory self feeling so hurt, making such a childish turmoil over trivial non-sense. It's a monkey show, soaked in the meaninglessness of ideas and opinions fighting to be fact. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnyxIdol Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Whelp, once again the internet proves to be a nasty place. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landak Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Any chance of fixing the "Hirelings unpaid" and "Hirelings want to kill me continuously" problems with the stronghold? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconCatBug Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 I am very, very disappointed. Between NWN2, it's expansions and New Vegas I have clocked in literally a thousand or more of hours of time playing your games and to see you capitulate to a hate group that literally wants to kill all men simply for being men is upsetting to the extreme. While I did not back the game (Remember, No Russians Preorders), I had been planning on buying it once I had the disposable income available. Now, I will not. I know your marketing department probably doesn't consider the lost sales and the lost respect as important as pandering to hate groups, but I felt the need to sign up and make my opinion, however much it'll be lost in the noise, known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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