Nerfing: You've GOT to be kidding me - get real Devs

[Hatred]

This game is so easy mode even on hard that this thread makes me wet myself laughing. I am finding the game so easy that the hardest thing is bringing myself to have a play session for more than 10 minutes. Go ahead and cry about it becoming 1% harder though noob.

[portedgoblin]

Was the slicken nerf really that bad? It still knocks enemies down in a big aoe. Normally I do not need more then one such advantage to win the fights (I play on hard).

 

The Chill fog is a clear nerf, but that was a little too good, being able to stack the dot ontop of your party.

 

I have Aloth in my party and would not trade him for anything, he has so many good spells I do not understand the problems you are having. For a hard fight I usually do some debuffing at the start of the fight with Curse of Blackened Sight, Slicken or Expose Vulnerabilities.

For damage, the Cone damage spells are very good. Fan of Flames or Blast of Frost. If it is a really hard fight I just cast Call of Slumber, witch is a 14s (!) Foe only Aoe knockdown... or Confusion.

 

This seems to work really well, but that might be because my PC is a monk and can deal out good damage. If your PC is a Wizard, perhaps you can have someone else do the debuffing and cast more damage spells yourself. I recommend the Cone spells, since that would require you also to be more active with positioning and aim that would allow for you to interact with our PC more.

[gkathellar]

 

I'm having a great time in combat - what am I doing wrong?

 

You're having fun. You disgust me. 

 

In other news I never even used slicken on hard. Talk about an overreaction. 

 

 

I didn't start using Slicken until this patch, because I didn't realize it was very good.

 

And you know, it's still pretty good. AoE prone is solid crowd control, even with a short duration.

[Darkpriest]

If you want casual experience play on EASY.. it even says in the hints, that playing on normal is not easy.... you just dont have to min max

[Nordicus]

The reason people are upset is because Wizard is already worse than Cipher/Druid and this just widens the gap.

If the buffs to Wizard spell ranges in patch 1.03 were in any way significant, I'd say no. (GOG copy)

[Katarack21]

 

I'm playing on Hard with Expert mode on in my first play through, I've not ever used Slicken or Chill Fog and I'm using a human paladin as my main character, which everyone says is pretty gimpy in comparison to other classes. I'm managing just fine.

 

The game is pretty easy (not that this is bad, the IE games were easier), so you can really get away with anything.

 

The reason people are upset is because Wizard is already worse than Cipher/Druid and this just widens the gap.

 

You mean wizards/druids are worse than cipher, right? Because that's how it actually is.

[Caerdon]

I still recall, 20 years later, getting slaughtered by fire arrows shot by goblins in the very first warehouse I entered in BG.

Hmm... "BG" seems to refer to Baldur's Gate, but there weren't any goblins in it, and it's not quite 20 years old...

[Sancus]

Besides, it's already been fixed. Here: http://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity/mods/26/?

 

This is broken(breaks textures so everything shows up purple), but I've figured out how to mod spells without breaking them like this(it's pretty tedious), however I don't have the old values for Mind Blades.

 

E: Nm, the original author has started to update his files so they work with the current version.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Sancus

[jepeman]

 

I still recall, 20 years later, getting slaughtered by fire arrows shot by goblins in the very first warehouse I entered in BG.

Hmm... "BG" seems to refer to Baldur's Gate, but there weren't any goblins in it, and it's not quite 20 years old...

 

 

He probably meant kobolds, I remember those fire arrow shooting bastards too. 

 

Baldur's Gate was released back in 1998, so its getting close. 

[Delicieuxz]

Mind Blades was really overpowered. The fact that you could 2 shot [well, almost] with this every mob pack in the game made certain fights trivial. Balance is a matter of reaching a point where all classes feel on the same level of power. Cipher was way above that, with near instant extremely powerful spells, with no disadvantages to speak of.

 

I guess it's a personal matter though. Different players look at balance in a wide variety of opinions, even more so when it's about a single player experience.

 

The most important thing about balance, which isn't really up for debate in my opinion, is that all classes should feel powerful enough to handle the game, which isn't the case currently with monks [for example, from my experience], and I opened a topic about it to voice my concerns.

 

As a note a bit more related to the topic: I never used Slicken, or that fog thing. Just a couple of times I used fog, and I had no idea it doesn't affect my party members anyway, aimed it the same way as fireball. Nice enough spell, especially when you realize that outside the red circle your party members don't get hit and enemies still do

 

I'm playing on Hard, and there was nothing in the whole game that could be 2-shotted with Mind Blades, or even 4-shotted. If it was playing like that for you, then you probably had the increasing stats bug. Mind Blades was not overpowered at all.

 

So now Obsidian is nerfing Mind Blades to cater to stat bugs?

[PrimeJunta]

@Delicieuxz: I'm playing on Hard too and there definitely is plenty of stuff that can get two-shotted with Mind Blades. You just have to apply a buff or debuff first. Try comboing with Curse of Blackened Sight or even plain ol' Divine Radiance (+5 ACC). Used un-buffed against un-debuffed enemies it's not so strong, but then neither is any other DD effect.

[sparklecat]

But they aren't.  Changing mind blades, or the summon horn, or slicken, or ice fog or any of the other nerfs only primarily affects solo players.... it becomes irrelevant for large party players b/c there are still a ton of other options for people with a party that make them OP.

 

With this rationale they would literally have to never nerf anything, ever, for you to be satisfied it wasn't solo players being targeted.  There will always be more options available to 6 characters than to one.

[Delicieuxz]

Really, another thread by you with 'devs' in the title? Nothing wrong with some balance changes.

 

@Delicieuxz

 

Balance in single player is more a matter of pruning dominant strategies to allow other options to shine. XCOM's Long War mod and especially Desktop Dungeons' beta have been the two best examples of that I've seen. Things like Baldur's Gate II's magic invisibility staff (because equipping and unequipping it circumvented True Sight effects) or the high-end ToB Thief traps were balance flaws in a single player game that probably stopped me from having more fun working out alternative strategies because they were too easy.

 

On the other hand, say, Backstab just didn't work on most major targets in ToB because of magic defenses and arbitrary immunities, which is really frustrating.

 

 

This move has brought no additional strategies to the surface, it has instead argued an absence of there being any real strategy, making it appear that doing whatever is equal in its outcomes, and so the player has no purpose to actually try to do something specific. This move has made things generic paste.

 

Mind Blades was never a strategy of its own, it complemented a host of other tactics - it was the icing on the cake, after everything else was set up. Now there's no icing on the cake, and the cake is bitter.

 

Mind Blades is so weak now that when cast from my 7th level Cipher it doesn't even take off 1 point of health from the 5-point status bar of a Wolf at Dyrford Crossing. It's become nearly pointless to exist.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Delicieuxz

[Gel214th]

So, I'm fighting 4 feral druids - you know, the ones who can change cast lighting strikes that stun you, do 50 points of damage, have a huge area of effect, and once you are hit w/a bolt and run out of the circle it follows you anyways.

 

Yet, the devs are going to nerf Slicken (to one target) and Mind Blades (which when my 5th level Cipher cast on them it made a 'dink' sound and didn't work anyways) ......

 

Are you kidding me?

 

Do you realize how many average gamers/casual gamers are rage quitting and reloading over and over and over.

 

I realize there are people who make spreadsheets and other crap to play this game - that is insane to me and any casual gamer who plays to have fun and has to balance it with real life.

 

Then there is the pride of 4 lions - elder lion and 3 others - who can roar, do 1/3rd of my 76 deflection fighter's health in a hit (1 lion) and get 3 hits in before I can cast one spell....

 

But, yeah, let's nerf the few available spells/abilities that can at least help a little bit.

 

I'm starting to get pissed.  

 

Don't tell me I don't know tactics.  I solo'd the whole first Act with a Cipher to teach myself the game .... I cleared Raedric's Hold by myself on normal with him (I know there are people doing it on PotD and Hard etc..... a few.....).  

 

I play to have fun.  I play to not have to reload 888888888888888888888 times.  

 

The number of ways a group of enemies can stunlock/freeze/daze your entire party is legion.  Meanwhile they sport deflection/defenses at level 3 that my 5th levels barely have...... yet, the devs want to nerf more.

 

I like the game's story, areas etc. but not sure I want to be forced to play a 6 man team (I was using 2-3 characters for the above druids and lions after solo-ing Act 1....) or face imminent destruction b/c the Devs decided to force feed me their concept of team play ......

 

Successor to the IE games?  Not by a long shot - the freedom in those was phenomenal.  PoE picks a narrow path and says: walk it.  Beginning with forcing me to have a huge party......

 

I completed BG2 with 3 different classes solo without tons of spam and my first play through, brand new to the game, I played it with a party of 3 and did just fine.

 

Rant off.

 

What would have been awesome is if the developers allowed us to mod the game ourselves.

 

They do not. 

[Delicieuxz]

@Delicieuxz: I'm playing on Hard too and there definitely is plenty of stuff that can get two-shotted with Mind Blades. You just have to apply a buff or debuff first. Try comboing with Curse of Blackened Sight or even plain ol' Divine Radiance (+5 ACC). Used un-buffed against un-debuffed enemies it's not so strong, but then neither is any other DD effect.

 

Then if it relied on using debuffs, it wasn't over-powered. Using debuffs is a strategy, and valid for a player to figure out. Using strategies like debuffing and then casting a move that exploits the debuff is supposed to be strong in effect - it's the nexus of the tactic.

 

And what if I have no character who casts those particular debuffs in my party? Now my main character, who is a Cipher, is no longer a viable party leader.

 

Nerfing something because it's strong when used in combination of debuffs that are precisely supposed to make certain things more effective is designing the game around using a particular optional tactic and play-style (one which I am not using), making those specific tactics be required play-styles, rather than personal choices, expressions, and decisions. It takes the role-play aspect out of an RPG.

 

Why give tons of options, only to reduce things down to a tiny set of viable maneuvers? I though the purpose of nerfing was to 'prune dominant strategies to allow others to shine' - this move has the opposite effect. It makes a particular strategy required to become the dominant one.

 

 

 

Maybe I'm just being cranky this morning, but I don't like it right now.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Delicieuxz

[revjwh]

I'm playing on Hard with Expert mode on in my first play through, I've not ever used Slicken or Chill Fog and I'm using a human paladin as my main character, which everyone says is pretty gimpy in comparison to other classes. I'm managing just fine.

 

Are you using a party?  If so, you failed to read the thread.  A party on hard and under is able to steamroll with a minimum of forethought.

[Dayen]

 

I'm playing on Hard with Expert mode on in my first play through, I've not ever used Slicken or Chill Fog and I'm using a human paladin as my main character, which everyone says is pretty gimpy in comparison to other classes. I'm managing just fine.

 

Are you using a party?  If so, you failed to read the thread.  A party on hard and under is able to steamroll with a minimum of forethought.

 

It depends. Some fights -- particularly fights where it's impossible for the tank to maintain aggro either because the opponents are too large or they're ghosts -- are very hard no matter what the setting is. Plus you need to really, truly understand the interrupt mechanics to successfully fight mages on the harder settings. (Or, you know, geek the mage.)

[Delicieuxz]

That's possibly not true, revjwh, and not in my experience. I'm playing on Hard, and I find the game to be hard. I make progress, but not carelessly - and I have lost many battles, and had to draw out opponents one or a few at a time in many situations to succeed. As others suggested before, it could be that those who are finding Hard easy have done so due to the stat-increasing bug. Or maybe they min-max a party of hired adventurers. Or maybe they know all techniques flawlessly. Or maybe a combination of all those things. 

 

My Cipher is not min-maxed, but it certainly also isn't sloppily made. I have experienced Hard as being hard.

 

My Cipher stats:

 

http://i.imgur.com/OQtf1tP.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/qXnhp3U.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/s9Z9Qmy.jpg

[Ohioastro]

Claims like "the game is easy on hard" are really, really unhelpful.  To start with, there are a lot of factors that play into difficulty.  Let's say that you throw every spell into every encounter and run back to the inn over and over.  This will make the game "easy", because it's not designed around having player throw dozens of spells into each battle.  Another example: let's say that you clear everything the first time that you see it.  There are many places in the game where this results in genuinely tough encounters - several of which you run into at the very start of the game.  However, if you wait on them a few levels, they become "easy".  Because they're not level scaled. 

 

Another example: if you accidentally trigger encounters out of position they're tough.  If you always line up terrain, scout, and open up with high damage ranged attacks and spells: a lot easier.  Mix/max your party and use a handful of strong combinations: easier.  Roleplay: harder.

 

Just claiming that the game is trivial on hard is therefore really unhelpful; it's a lot better to ask what particular problems that others are having, or to specify what you mean. 

[demeisen]

A party on hard and under is able to steamroll with a minimum of forethought

 

 

I'm starting to think that some of this is down to how many sidequests you do before various parts of the main plot line.

 

I've just picked up the main plot line again, and I'm feeling seriously over-levelled for it.  (Still liking it for the story and atmosphere though!)  Like someone said above, I'm steam-rolling everything in my path with no attempt to play "well", though I prefer genuinely hard fights that make me struggle to survive.   That's with the story NPCs, no rest spamming, and a suboptimal character build (no min-maxing).  But I think if I hadn't picked up a bunch of side-quest experience, it might feel harder since I might be a few levels lower.

 

So I wonder if that explains part of why some folks consider PoE hard, and others much too easy.  I seriously doubt I'm that much better than average at these kind of games.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm really glad they don't have auto-leveling monsters, but that does make fight balance hard when you combine it with a world that lets you explore and do side quests in different orders.  People then come into encounters with widely different levels of party exp.  One person might get to fight X and find it almost impossible, and another, trivially easy.

 

Auto-scaling encounters always seems like a terrible choice, and open worlds are more immersive than rails games.  All I can think is to reduce side quest experience quite a lot so nobody ends up so over-leveled that most fights become trivialized.

[Archaven]

Just tried the nerfed mind blades on a choke point. Wow it's still that darn awesome.

[Katarack21]

 

Mind Blades was really overpowered. The fact that you could 2 shot [well, almost] with this every mob pack in the game made certain fights trivial. Balance is a matter of reaching a point where all classes feel on the same level of power. Cipher was way above that, with near instant extremely powerful spells, with no disadvantages to speak of.

 

I guess it's a personal matter though. Different players look at balance in a wide variety of opinions, even more so when it's about a single player experience.

 

The most important thing about balance, which isn't really up for debate in my opinion, is that all classes should feel powerful enough to handle the game, which isn't the case currently with monks [for example, from my experience], and I opened a topic about it to voice my concerns.

 

As a note a bit more related to the topic: I never used Slicken, or that fog thing. Just a couple of times I used fog, and I had no idea it doesn't affect my party members anyway, aimed it the same way as fireball. Nice enough spell, especially when you realize that outside the red circle your party members don't get hit and enemies still do

 

I'm playing on Hard, and there was nothing in the whole game that could be 2-shotted with Mind Blades, or even 4-shotted. If it was playing like that for you, then you probably had the increasing stats bug. Mind Blades was not overpowered at all.

 

So now Obsidian is nerfing Mind Blades to cater to stat bugs?

 

I'm on normal, but since PotD is the *only* mode that alters stats it makes no real difference. I *didn't* have the stat bug, and fact is many things could be two-shotted with Mind Blades before the patch. Xuarupis, Wichts, etc. I can't count the number of battles ended by me and grieving mother before the tanks did more than block the path.

[Brimsurfer]

I am not saying that I agree with OP and I am not a casual gamer, but combat and the difficulty does seem out of sorts in this game. 

 

I have played all the IE games and I have been playing RPGs for over 2 decades and in my experience difficulty of BG or IWD games or even PS:T was much more balanced than what I have seen in this game.

[Dongom]

I am not saying that I agree with OP and I am not a casual gamer, but combat and the difficulty does seem out of sorts in this game. 

 

I have played all the IE games and I have been playing RPGs for over 2 decades and in my experience difficulty of BG or IWD games or even PS:T was much more balanced than what I have seen in this game.

 

I disagree, as I could faceroll solo BG/IWD.  I can't do that with PoE.  

 

And it wasn't just becaue of Multi-Class and Rest spam, but some base classes got pretty nuts later on (Monk).

[Sancus]

Regardless of the difficulty setting, I think it's pretty obvious the early level Wizard spells are majorly messed up. Fan of Flames deals so much more damage than anything else(even level 3 spells!!!), even nerfed Slicken is still better than Binding Web, and the level 2 spells in general are extremely underwhelming.

 

I think the entire 1st and 2nd Wizard spell levels need rebalancing. It's disappointing to see random changes like this. The Mind Blades change is sort of silly, but it doesn't seem that impactful to me(and my PC is a Cipher on Hard) because Soul Shock's damage is even higher than Mind Blades was. And yeah it was easier to target Mind Blades, but not _that_ much easier.