Where is the god damn tactics system?

[luzarius]

Sorry for double post.

Edited April 2, 2015 by luzarius

[Mazuo]

 

Right-click and turning the formation was in BG.  It also has nothing to do with party AI.

 

It's really insulting to keep creating strawmen about 'doing everything for you', but about the level of discourse I've come to expect around here.

really? well ok than i am wrong in that point. i didn't know that.

 

but what else would a tactics option be, other than a "play the game for me" option?

 

 

Exactly what they were in BG.  Basic AI scripts that governed simple behaviors.  Argue whether they're needed or not, I don't much care any longer, but damn is it not annoying to keep being told any sort of AI is going to be for the purpose of removing all control from the player.

[Tigranes]

A lot of you are acting like anyone can setup a good tactics setup for a party. For Dragon Age Origins, I had to perform lots of trial and error before I found a good tactics setup that worked with the party.  Keep in mind, I also play my games in a no death rule set, so achieving perfection is key. Eventually I had it down perfect and it felt like a great accomplishment.

 

When you setup tactics for your party, It feels like i'm with my group and we're discussing combat BEFORE the fight, preparing strategies ahead of time, it's very immersive.

 

Doing the same abilities over and over again in a repetitive way actually breaks immersion, no warrior or mage is this stupid to be need to be told to do the same exact thing over and over again. It's just getting boring having to click all these abilities in the same exact order in every single god damn fight. 

 

When you notice a certain degree of repetitiveness, your human nature yearns to automate and improve.  Does this mean Obsidian has no respect for humanities natural need to avoid repetition and improve?.

 

Oh, I certainly don't think setting up tactics is super-easy. I just think controlling your party members is a huge part of what IE games and POE are about, and a big part of what sets them apart from other CRPGs. As I've said before, a tactics system would be a nice thing to have for people who do want to play that way. But I can see how it was not top priority for Obsidian, and hopefully it'll make it in in the future. 

 

You're randomly bringing in immersion (which can be used to justify anything) and some human evolution fluff, are you wanting people to disagree with you? I mean, I could just go on and on about how the repetition compulsion is wired into the human psyche. Shall we hold a 3-day conference? 

[mahe4]

 

 

Right-click and turning the formation was in BG.  It also has nothing to do with party AI.

 

It's really insulting to keep creating strawmen about 'doing everything for you', but about the level of discourse I've come to expect around here.

really? well ok than i am wrong in that point. i didn't know that.

 

but what else would a tactics option be, other than a "play the game for me" option?

 

 

Exactly what they were in BG.  Basic AI scripts that governed simple behaviors.  Argue whether they're needed or not, I don't much care any longer, but damn is it not annoying to keep being told any sort of AI is going to be for the purpose of removing all control from the player.

 

there already id AI in PoE...

my tanks automatically attack another enemy, if one dies... the exact same thing the basic BG AI does...

there are more advanced BG AI mods, yeah! but they are mods!

i don't care if a mod adds a tactical system, hell i would even encourage it, as long as the developers concentrate on other things!

Edited April 2, 2015 by mahe4

[Matuse]

A tactics system could only have the effect of gelding your party's combat efficiency, as well as requiring  that you rest about 10x more often.

 

It's a terrible idea that Obsidian should waste absolutely no time on.

[Hatred]

 I think setting up tactics was super easy. Heck you can finish DA:O on nightmare by just selecting all and telling them to all run at the enemy and then going to make a coffee its so disgustingly easy. Even my friend playing DA who never touched BG or IWD managed to do it. Lets not pretend that something in DA was hard besides staying awake/getting to the end because had paid for it and waited so long only to be let down so hard .... thank Eothas for Pillars.

[Hellraiser789]

 I think setting up tactics was super easy. Heck you can finish DA:O on nightmare by just selecting all and telling them to all run at the enemy and then going to make a coffee its so disgustingly easy. Even my friend playing DA who never touched BG or IWD managed to do it. Lets not pretend that something in DA was hard besides staying awake/getting to the end because had paid for it and waited so long only to be let down so hard .... thank Eothas for Pillars.

 

Yeah, I'd agree, generally it took a short amount a time to adjust and realize what does what (as it does for all games). Then its pretty much no brainer. Sure you could probably make it do some complicated stuff (maybe?) and that'd be cool I guess... It would be cool to just sit back and watch everything in real time, but considering if your playing your main character anyway, doesn't that just make it pretty much WoW with companions....?

[waretaringo]

You can't have tactics like in DAO and DAII. Here abilities and spells are not unlimited and with a simple cooldown timer.

As joe_ollie said, if a spell/ability gets used at the end of the combat because the conditions are met, you've just wasted it.

hey guys, remember when a game let you write your own custom scripts oh wait that was Baldur's Gate and it was like 20 years ago

[Hellraiser789]

 

You can't have tactics like in DAO and DAII. Here abilities and spells are not unlimited and with a simple cooldown timer.

As joe_ollie said, if a spell/ability gets used at the end of the combat because the conditions are met, you've just wasted it.

hey guys, remember when a game let you write your own custom scripts oh wait that was Baldur's Gate and it was like 20 years ago

 

 

You could write custom scripts? I know you could chose from some default scripts in the Baldurs Gate games, but those werent great in my opinion, especially for spell users. Basically it was useful for auto attacks and stuff (so Fighters/Rangers/Barbarians/etc maybe Rogues?) but was terrible for spell-users (Wizards/Druids/Priests). Sure it allowed me to automatically use my healing spells on wounded party members, but that just made me rest more often (like after every fight lol) and I generally just stayed away from scripts as a whole because I found them useless. But you're telling me you can create your own scripts somehow? I mean, I know mods and stuff that did that, but I didn't think it was a feature....(and I didn't think even the modded ones were that useful - I found my own tactics much better than any AIs...). You couldn't set up options and conditions like in DA, could you? Or did you like have to mod it in or something? Never really worried about scripts or bothered to look into them, personally, as I found they were just not that good, and I don't think I'd miss them if they hadn't been included (and wont miss them in PoE).

Edited April 3, 2015 by Hellraiser789

[Viperswhip]

Listen I really like this game, am waiting for the patch to play more, and I also wish there was a tactics system, I mean, there was in Baldur's Gate.

[VioNectro]

It would be nice to have the good old AI scripts from the BG days. At a minimum I would like AI that doesn't go full retard with their path finding and auto attack stuff on the other-side of the "mosh" instead of helping other party members focus fire the target they are busy with..

[Brimsurfer]

I find myself doing the same thing in every fight, if there was a tactics system I could eliminate this redundancy and focus more on the battle in real time.

 

First inquisition and now this game, rpg games are dying. In Dragon Age Origins I could set up my tactics and eliminate redundancy. How the hell is this game getting such high reviews without a tactics system?

 

Apparently you don't know what you are talking about. Inquisition is a bloody new generation crap. And dont you dare compare Inquisition to this game. 

[Sifjar]

Didn't read whole topic. But 

I disagree with topic starter. This is different kind of game. And do not need that kind ofstuff.

BG had those scripts, but BG's combat was also different. Imagine that you set "range" kind of script to your mage/priest/whoever. Some Shadow teleport to it. npc got hit, start running away. You trying to CC it or get it back to tank, but he running different direction and is LoS now.. Since combat here is different from BG this can end really bad.

[Matuse]

 

 

and I also wish there was a tactics system, I mean, there was in Baldur's Gate.

 

Which, after the first time the script had your mage throw a fireball at a single Xvart and do 30 points of damage to your entire party, was immediately turned off.

 

I know it's the very first thing I do whenever I start a BG or BG2 game. The scripting is a laughable joke, when it's not incredibly annoying (like the cleric script that has them running turn undead constantly).

[icedon]

 

 

... I don't want the game to play itself, ....

.... If I wanted to do everything manually ...

 

Use the auto-Manual mode.

[waretaringo]

 

 

You can't have tactics like in DAO and DAII. Here abilities and spells are not unlimited and with a simple cooldown timer.

As joe_ollie said, if a spell/ability gets used at the end of the combat because the conditions are met, you've just wasted it.

hey guys, remember when a game let you write your own custom scripts oh wait that was Baldur's Gate and it was like 20 years ago

 

 

You could write custom scripts? I know you could chose from some default scripts in the Baldurs Gate games, but those werent great in my opinion, especially for spell users. Basically it was useful for auto attacks and stuff (so Fighters/Rangers/Barbarians/etc maybe Rogues?) but was terrible for spell-users (Wizards/Druids/Priests). Sure it allowed me to automatically use my healing spells on wounded party members, but that just made me rest more often (like after every fight lol) and I generally just stayed away from scripts as a whole because I found them useless. But you're telling me you can create your own scripts somehow? I mean, I know mods and stuff that did that, but I didn't think it was a feature....(and I didn't think even the modded ones were that useful - I found my own tactics much better than any AIs...). You couldn't set up options and conditions like in DA, could you? Or did you like have to mod it in or something? Never really worried about scripts or bothered to look into them, personally, as I found they were just not that good, and I don't think I'd miss them if they hadn't been included (and wont miss them in PoE).

 

yes, you essentially had to mod it to do anything useful. but the capability to do so easily and efficiently has been around almost as long as BGII itself - you just have to learn some WeiDU pseudocode.

or, y'know, not even make the effort, because there's already awesome custom scripts people have shared as complete mod packages.

but even with the base game you could make a basic 'use your low level spells and run away if someone gets close', or 'shoot your ranged weapons and run away if someone gets close' script without too much trouble.

 

seriously, though, the people saying 'this isn't that kind of game AND IF YOU SAY OTHERWISE YOU'RE A GODDAMN TROLL GO AWAY WE DON'T WANT YOU HERE' blow my mind. it's a real-time tactical combat game. Dragon Age is a great point of comparison. there's no way in which a robust tactics system would be a detriment, and many, many ways it would remove some of the tedium from the combat. imagine controlling your full team of six in real time and not actually having to pause, just making adjustments as the tactic scripts become inappropriate to the situation. it's a fun and thrilling experience.

Edited April 3, 2015 by waretaringo

[luzarius]

Hey guys, I take back my original post. I was wrong. The game doesn't need a tactics system.  I finally understand the games combat and I'm impressed. Thanks Obsidian!

[Gel214th]

I find myself doing the same thing in every fight, if there was a tactics system I could eliminate this redundancy and focus more on the battle in real time.

 

First inquisition and now this game, rpg games are dying. In Dragon Age Origins I could set up my tactics and eliminate redundancy. How the hell is this game getting such high reviews without a tactics system?

 

Yeah. I miss it too. All the previous games had Tactics, this one does not. Terrible design decision. 

If there are no party tactics in a party based RPG then it had damn well better be totally turn based. 

I've set my combat pause to every 5 seconds to see if that helps. 

 

Developing decent tactics depending on your party composition was a strategy in itself. MANY RPGs have this system and no one would ever dare call them "playing the game for you". That's a ridiculous assertion. No one has said that Baldurs Gate II played the game for you. smh. Really?

 

I actually starting to think that it was left out because of cost, then some clever marketing got the fanbois to shout that its working as intended (because there has never been a CRPG that allowed you to SWITCH OFF tactics if you wanted to...right?). See, if the Tactics are there it allows players to switch it OFF. If they aren't there players that want to can't even switch it on. 

 

Damn "hardcore" "oldschool" "nostalgic" games. ( )

Edited April 4, 2015 by Gel214th

[Caerdon]

I can't believe this hasn't been mentioned yet...

 

The very reason DA:O had tactics scripts was because it was practically impossible to control your entire party the way it was possible in IE games. DA:O was designed by and large around the idea that you control one character at a time without a proper tactical overview, even if it wasn't strictly limited to such a control scheme.

 

Pillars of Eternity doesn't have tactics scripts because it gives you full tactical control over the entire party, all the time. Scripts are unnecessary.

 

The reason DAO had a tactics system was for people who want to avoid all the unnessary pausing.   Guys, I hate to break it to you, but you don't need to actually pause during the fight if you have a tactics system.  Nothing gives me more enjoyment than giving orders before a fight, then seeing those tactics come to fruition in absolute real time during a fight.

 

I hate to break it to you, but you also don't need to actually play the game if you have a tactics system. Nothing gives me more enjoyment than controlling my entire party, without having to compose simplistic scripts just so the other party members wouldn't immediately suicide themselves while I give orders to a single character.

 

Don't get me wrong, I quite liked DA:O, but Bioware went for mass appeal with the control scheme, combat mechanics and the overall design. There were just too many compromises, which is why its combat didn't have the depth of Eternity or the old IE games. (This is why I only ever finished it once, despite playing at least a dozen characters past Ostagar - the game simply got way too repetitive, regardless of which class or origin or specialization I chose. But I did enjoy the time I spent with it.)

[Infares]

AI Scripting can be pretty exploitable. Games like DA:O or Final Fantasy XII, you can basically autopilot most trivial encounters. 

[Edit: Pathing is apparently much improved now compared to Backer's Beta, but there are sometimes still some issues with it, so even if you could script a priority system for your characters, chances are you'll still have to go hands-on most of the time, anyways.]

Edited April 5, 2015 by Infares

[Crucis]

This doesn't specifically addres the OP's point about a "tactics" system, but one thing I miss from the old IE games is at least one of the combat buttons that told your party or a single character what to do in a simple way.  Specifically, the button I miss is the one that told the selected character(s) to hold a position, rather than simply go charging after the nearest enemy (if you were equipped with a melee weapon).  It was great for telling a tank or 2 to set up in position X (such as at a choke point) because you then knew that they wouldn't do anything stupid like charging away from your otherwise well thought out defensive position.

 

Without this ability, in PoE, you can set up a position at a doorway, but once your doorway holding tank has killed one enemy at his initial position, he might decide to go run off towards another enemy rather than hold the position you want him holding.  (This gets really, really annoying after a while!)

 

There were probably other action buttons like this in the IE games, but none of them were as memorable or well used by me as the guard/hold position (or whatever you want to call it) action button.