Press Release Version of Eder's, Aloth's, Kana's, & Durance's Attribute Spread

[TrueMenace]

 

Keep in mind, Josh Sawyer beat the game on Hard with only companions. So they are very viable.

 

its say more about game difficulty, than viability of companions.

 

Anyway i will never agree with argument - "its ok that companions are gimped if i can finish game anyway".

 

I completely disagree. It means you have to out of your way to make a GIMPED character. A gimped character in my eyes is someone that impedes your progress so much it's a struggle to finish the game. 

[Kordanor]

The "problem" is that there is the alternative of custom characters.

 

So these gimped characters are just a mere option.

 

Like in an RTS where you could either attack with footmen or with tanks. Now if there weren't any tanks, it would just be a higher difficulty. But with the alternative of tanks you would gimp yourself attacking with footmen.

 

So personally I set a rule for myself to never use any tanks/ custom characters.

But once you use them I can see that the custom characters might feel gimped.

[Meretrelle]

Hmm.. I've got some questions regarding these stats..

1)Wizard


Why does he have a high perception instead of high might? Doesn't might increase all damage?  What' the point of having a high perception on a mage? Interrupts? I don't think it's worth it.

2)Priest

Why resolve is so high? Not getting interrupted is good and vital for a priest but still..And isn't constitution a bit high? Wouldn't it be better to put more points into might seeing as it greatly increases healing?

 

 

PS Having respec option would help greatly.. One could just respec these companions lol

Edited March 23, 2015 by Meretrelle

[Diogenes]

 

Keep in mind, Josh Sawyer beat the game on Hard with only companions. So they are very viable.

 

its say more about game difficulty, than viability of companions.

 

Anyway i will never agree with argument - "its ok that companions are gimped if i can finish game anyway".

 

 

But if you can beat the game without significant problems then they... aren't gimped?

[Ganrich]

I can't believe anyone would seriously think that all the companions would be min/maxed with high might and Intellect. I am really surprised by the comments in this thread. It would be incredibly boring if all companions were just maxed might and X stats.

 

I am actually excited by Aloth's stats. I am making a chanter with high Int and Lore (maybe some Perception) and plan on focusing on the phrase Thick Grew Their Tongues, and possibly solid interrupt weapons. Using heavy melee with scrolls, potions, and invocations weaved in. A Battlecaster, or Bardbarian. This cemented Aloth as my 6th companion. He was up against the Druid and the Ranger, but Wizard versatility + the high perception pulls him ahead. Interrupt is somewhat weak, but I also find an entire party of max Might and Int, save the Tank(s), a bit boring.

 

Also, people could run through BG solo... So the companions being suboptimal has zero bearing on difficulty.

[Sock]

 

 

Perception doesn't affect range or accuracy...

Then the Wiki is wrong. What does it effect?

 

 

The wiki is wrong about everything, categorically, all the time. Do not trust it. Never.

 

Perception gives you a bonus to Deflection, Interrupt, and Reflex. It's pretty much exclusively useful for front-liners.

 

 

Do people really rely on the wikis for games that are still in development?

[Luckmann]

 

 

 

Perception doesn't affect range or accuracy...

Then the Wiki is wrong. What does it effect?

 

 

The wiki is wrong about everything, categorically, all the time. Do not trust it. Never.

 

Perception gives you a bonus to Deflection, Interrupt, and Reflex. It's pretty much exclusively useful for front-liners.

 

 

Do people really rely on the wikis for games that are still in development?

 

 

Yes.

 

No, I don't know why.

 

Yes, it's sorta crazy.

[Kordanor]

Yes, if it is either the only or most convenient source.

[Sock]

I can't believe anyone would seriously think that all the companions would be min/maxed with high might and Intellect. I am really surprised by the comments in this thread. It would be incredibly boring if all companions were just maxed might and X stats.

 

I am actually excited by Aloth's stats. I am making a chanter with high Int and Lore (maybe some Perception) and plan on focusing on the phrase Thick Grew Their Tongues, and possibly solid interrupt weapons. Using heavy melee with scrolls, potions, and invocations weaved in. A Battlecaster, or Bardbarian. This cemented Aloth as my 6th companion. He was up against the Druid and the Ranger, but Wizard versatility + the high perception pulls him ahead. Interrupt is somewhat weak, but I also find an entire party of max Might and Int, save the Tank(s), a bit boring.

 

Also, people could run through BG solo... So the companions being suboptimal has zero bearing on difficulty.

 

I agree with this sentiment.

 

Some people may enjoy building to the numbers and making the most optimized character, utilizing every facet of the game they can to dominate it. Good for them, seriously.

 

I just want to be able to create the character I want, and not be the weakest member in the party. I like the Aloth has low might, it means that I am going to focus much more on his non-damage spells. Which is also great, since EVERYONE can do damage, but only wizards can cast wizard debuffs. It makes it so that I am not relying on the wizard's damage as a crutch to really learn the class.

 

I've mad two subpar builds, one of which was absolutely worthless. I made a melee range archer monk, who was subpar. If I took only the passive abilities with the monk and swift strikes, it was workable but still hard to get up wounds. The melee wizard was absolutely worthless, though. By the time he was buffed, all enemies were already engaged, and by the time he was on his third attack, all buffs had worn off.

[Sherr]

 

 

Keep in mind, Josh Sawyer beat the game on Hard with only companions. So they are very viable.

 

its say more about game difficulty, than viability of companions.

 

Anyway i will never agree with argument - "its ok that companions are gimped if i can finish game anyway".

 

 

But if you can beat the game without significant problems then they... aren't gimped?

 

No, they are. It just means that game is not challenging enough to punish you for their poor stats.

[Sock]

 

 

 

Keep in mind, Josh Sawyer beat the game on Hard with only companions. So they are very viable.

 

its say more about game difficulty, than viability of companions.

 

Anyway i will never agree with argument - "its ok that companions are gimped if i can finish game anyway".

 

 

But if you can beat the game without significant problems then they... aren't gimped?

 

No, they are. It just means that game is not challenging enough to punish you for their poor stats.

 

It means there's more than one way to play the game.

[TrueMenace]

 

 

 

Keep in mind, Josh Sawyer beat the game on Hard with only companions. So they are very viable.

 

its say more about game difficulty, than viability of companions.

 

Anyway i will never agree with argument - "its ok that companions are gimped if i can finish game anyway".

 

 

But if you can beat the game without significant problems then they... aren't gimped?

 

No, they are. It just means that game is not challenging enough to punish you for their poor stats.

 

It's funny you think the companions have "poor" stats. Almost all attribute spreads are viable, it's how the game was designed. I'm going to bet you never played the Backer Beta and never touched an IE game because you have no clue what you're talking about. 

[Sherr]

It means there's more than one way to play the game.

 

 

So now you start saying obvious things. Yes, there more than one way to play the game, but it doesnt make gimped stat-wise characters less gimped.

 

 

I'm going to bet you never played the Backer Beta and never touched an IE game because you have no clue what you're talking about. 

 

 

You lose your bet then. And i dont see how your accusations are relevent to this topic.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Sherr

[Luckmann]

I can't believe anyone would seriously think that all the companions would be min/maxed with high might and Intellect. I am really surprised by the comments in this thread. It would be incredibly boring if all companions were just maxed might and X stats.

 

I am actually excited by Aloth's stats. I am making a chanter with high Int and Lore (maybe some Perception) and plan on focusing on the phrase Thick Grew Their Tongues, and possibly solid interrupt weapons. Using heavy melee with scrolls, potions, and invocations weaved in. A Battlecaster, or Bardbarian. This cemented Aloth as my 6th companion. He was up against the Druid and the Ranger, but Wizard versatility + the high perception pulls him ahead. Interrupt is somewhat weak, but I also find an entire party of max Might and Int, save the Tank(s), a bit boring.

 

Also, people could run through BG solo... So the companions being suboptimal has zero bearing on difficulty.

 

Alright, so, it's kinda clear that you haven't actually read the thread, because no-one has said that they think that all the CNPC:s would be min/maxed with high might and Intellect. No-one. Not a single one have even hinted at this, as far as I've seen. Total strawman.

 

The issue isn't the Attributes that for example Aloth is saddled with, but rather an issue of the Attributes themselves being unbalanced.

 

To stick to the Aloth/Perception example, that's a solid 6 points that are straight-up dead weight. This is not to say that Aloth's Attributes should be changed; I don't think they should be. The issue is fundamentally that Perception shouldn't be dead weight for him, and seeing as how it is, it is sad to see him stuck with it.

 

Look at Edér. A high-ish CON Fighter who was made into a Fighter in order to give people a tank, with a lot of MIG. No-one is really complaining about that, despite it being a relatively bad tank build, and clearly not min/maxed.

 

The issue is with the Attributes themselves and it leads to spreads that should otherwise be reasonable feeling incredibly ****ty. It's also very lopsided and uneven, looking at for example Kana Rua, a character that is very clearly min/maxed by comparison to anyone else.

 

The fact that the game can still be completed does nothing to diminish the present issues and does not constitute an argument against balance. A choice of attributes should contribute actively to the completion, the game shouldn't allow you to complete it in spite of them.

 

It's funny you think the companions have "poor" stats. Almost all attribute spreads are viable, it's how the game was designed. I'm going to bet you never played the Backer Beta and never touched an IE game because you have no clue what you're talking about.

Some do, some doesn't. The attributes are very far from equally viable, but you are right that they are viable insofar that it is possible to complete the game with any spread. This is beside the point. You could complete the game with 10 in all stats, but you'd never argue that a CNPC that was 6 points behind everyone else was balanced.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Luckmann

[Sock]

 

It means there's more than one way to play the game.

 

 

So now you start saying obvious things. Yes, there more than one way to play the game, but it doesnt make gimped stat-wise characters less gimped.

 

 

I'm going to bet you never played the Backer Beta and never touched an IE game because you have no clue what you're talking about. 

 

 

You lose your bet then. And i dont see how your accusations are relevent to this topic.

 

 

You're entirely missing the point.

 

You're placing too much emphasis on role based on class, with no consideration for what the attributes actually are. I can promise you there is a build that can use Aloth's stat allocation to great effect (an interrupting blaster with wide range and long duration debuffs), or a build that both takes advantage of Eder's high str and decent con.

 

I promise you, it's there, it's very viable, and it does not leave you "gimped", unless you're making a custom tank with min-maxed stats specifically for tanking, and then complain when Eder can't do what your custom tank can. Um, duh.

 

They've actually done a great job at balancing the mid levels if you'd give it a chance. The efficiency gains from min-maxing are not nearly as pronounced in PoE as they were in IE games.

[Katarack21]

 

It is good for combat.   There are a lot of combinations for how to use attributes with certain builds and a perception oriented non-tank is perfectly viable with the right selection of weapons & talents.  You may not be able to build an Uber character with it, but a decent build is entirely possible

 

Depends on what class and build he's talking about. I'll be the first one to say that one should go for what they want and aim for the RP, but if he's going for a traditional wizard and referring to Perception, saying that Perception is good for combat for him is ignorant at best and deceptive at worst.

 

My first playthrough is going to be as a Cipher. I haven't quite nailed down the build yet, but I like my cipher pikeman idea, honestly.

[Ganrich]

I have read the thread actually. The thread has mostly been about Aloth's stat allocation. Sure, you are discussing why Perception is broken, and I don't disagree with you. The post that is 2 above my previous one is commenting on Aloth having perception instead of might for damage.

 

Eder is mostly fine, as you pointed out. He isn't optimal, but his stats will make him kind of easy to be either an ok tank or ok damage.

 

Durance isn't being complained about because Priests aren't terribly great damage wise, but his stats will make due as a buff, debuff, healer. He will be semi-tanky as well. The healer being kind of Tanky is good for newbies IMHO.

 

Kana seems to be the character that the forum seems universally happy with, and look at that... Near max Might and max Int. Dash of Perception, but since we focused on Might and Int first it isn't an issue.

 

Perhaps, I did use a strawman, but even so there are still people here that have commented in a way to lead me to my post.

 

That said, I remember the stat debates during the early BB, and argued in them copiously. IMHO the issue is they stuck with 6 stats. There isn't a way to spread these bonuses around to make each stat equally useful while having 6 attributes. Not saying I don't want 6 attributes in my IE successor, but just saying. I also argued then that the defensive stats would become dump stats, or atleast stats most classes (particularly ranged) can ignore. I also argued, and this was incredibly early, that interrupt (governed by a stat) would likely be OP or pretty useless. Also, keeping intellect and might as they are makes them the go to attributes while sometimes Dexterity is a better choice. Here we are, defensive stats ignorable (unless tanking), interrupts are pretty weak, and int and might are the go to.

 

I agree the stats are lopsided. I remember calling for Duration to be pulled from Int and to given to Resolve, and Sawyer tried that for a while. I fell away for a bit shortly after because of RL stuff. I remember people complaining that casters had to spec into 2 attributes to be good (not including might), and I can only assume that they got it switched back over. I think being able to have high duration/small AoE, or short duration/larger AoE, would lead to more interesting builds. It is what it is. I still think each attribute should have 1 offensive bonus, 1 defensive bonus, and govern a save stat. It would balance out stats, but then certain classes and certain builds would have dump stats/leave around 10 stats.

[Gromnir]

just for the heck o' it, we made an elder tank in the bb and level'd to 8... same attributes as in the genesis post.

 

we armed our elder with a fine hatchet and the fine large shield-- no ring o' deflection or any other goodies.  is wearing plate.

 

took vanilla talents and abilities--

 

constant recovery, defender, fighting spirit, knockdown, unbending and vigorous defense for abilities

 

bonus knockdown, weapon and shield style, wary defender and rapid recovery.  

 

coulda' optimized talents and abilities a bit better, but we figure we ain't gonna get elder at level 1.

 

with defender modal active, we got following  stats:

 

health- 827

endurance- 166

 

accuracy- 45

 

def- 102

fort 75

ref 83

wil 61

 

vigorous defense gets us a +20 to ALL defenses for 17.3 seconds, and the tank elder will effective have much greater endurance than we see listed.

 

am having difficulty finding a way to complain about elder.

 

*shrug*

 

the other joinables will be similar in that how they is level'd is gonna have as much/more impact than starting attributes.  durance will never be tanky, regardless o' his resolve, but he will be a very reliable support/heals.  like it or not, aloth's effectiveness will be determined more by how you got your grimoire(s) filled than the attribute spreads-- use spells even remotely coherent, and he will be almost indispensable. etc.  am not worried about the joinables based on initial attribute allocations.  

 

that being said, am far more concerned with talents and abilities.  these joinables can be well and fully buggar'd if they gots horrible talent and ability selections and they is already level'd to 3 or 4 or whatever.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited March 24, 2015 by Gromnir

[Sock]

 

 

that being said, am far more concerned with talents and abilities.  these joinables can be well and fully buggar'd if they gots horrible talent and ability selections and they is already level'd to 3 or 4 or whatever.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Yeah, that's my concern too. I don't mind set attributes, those are part of the personality often times. However, I would love if they joined at level 1 and I was able to level them up myself. I could deal with all joinable characters having one talent that I'm not a fan of, but to be pigeonholed into a build due to talent allocation, I don't like that. It's almost big enough an issue for me that I am considering waiting until there's a character editor even for my first play through. I can't stress how much I want to have control over what talents and abilities the companions take.

 

I never used the BB Rogue because it has the dual wield talent, and I hate using rogue in melee because of how fragile it is. So, because the rogue already has such a build defining talent, which would be a complete waste if I were to use a bow with BB Rogue, I always kill the rogue off.

[Ganrich]

Tanky may have been the wrong word. I am just saying Durance's Resolve will give him more durability than without. He won't immediately fold if he gets someone on him on Normal or Easy. It helps with concentration as well, and that means he will be less susceptible to being delayed with important heals, buffs, etc if something does attack him. It won't let him be a frontline fighter though. If you get more than one guy on a squishy then you are probably doing it wrong.

 

I agree that dev selected Talents being poor will lead to frustration. Eder is early enough that I think you will have complete control on his outcome. The same can be said about Durance, I think. The healer and the Tank being among your first companions is good. It means you can change their leaning if your PC fills those rolls already. I will say giving new people to the genre complete control could be a double edged sword. Give newbies enough rope to hang themselves, if you will.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Ganrich

[Voss]

It means there's more than one way to play the game.

 

 

 

That has yet to be proven. It might have been a design goal, but it doesn't mean the final game turned out that way...

 

It's funny you think the companions have "poor" stats. Almost all attribute spreads are viable, it's how the game was designed. 

 

This is also just a design goal.  Unlike the 'multiple ways to play,' this has largely proved not to be the case at all.  If tank, Per/Res/Con matter.  If not tank, Might/Int/Dex rule.  There absolutely seems to be no middle ground here at all.  Optimism runs face first into math and cries at its first taste of reality. 

 

@ganrich- they have more than enough rope to hang themselves as is (though, given how IE NPCs ended up built, with a system that didn't even allow many choices, I can't say I want the devs choosing talents for NPCs).  Watching character creation (and only creation) videos today was psychologically scarring.  Low knowledge levels + unintuitive design decisions = trainwreck.

 

All that said, I think Durance is far worse off than Aloth (though honestly, I won't take him either).  Aloth at least has half his points in useful places, rather than barely a third, and negative modifiers on top. He's getting chucked in the bin, or follow in the footsteps of Khalid and fed to bears. 

 

Eder and Kana are companions done right- a wide enough spread to be interesting, but functional in their attributes for their class. Though it seems Pelle is going to have to suck it up and tank (unless, of course, she's full of crap design as well).

Edited March 24, 2015 by Voss

[Gromnir]

 

 Though it seems Pelle is going to have to suck it up and tank (unless, of course, she's full of crap design as well).

 

paladin tanks are a bit misleading. sure, they got great potential defenses, but tanking is as much about getting and holding aggro as it is about being a damage sink.  fighters got superior engagement when in defender mode. fighter abilities is also more tank focused than is paladin abilities.  am of the opinion that the deeper you get into the game, the paladin-as-tank builds will be decreasing in efficacy.  that being said, particular on normal mode, we expect that the paladin will suffice in the tank role, even if it ultimately is not as impressive as a fighter tank.. or a monk tank.

 

'course, everybody has an opinion.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Guest]

Side note: Looks like Durance and Kana each get 16 attribute points, rather than 15. Assuming that the article is correct, of course.

[Bryy]

Aloth looking like a li'l punk.

The streams have decided for me that, no matter who I swap out for custom heroes, Aloth stays.

 

Aloth freakin' stays.

[gkathellar]

Well, anyways, looks like some of us are going to want a Level 1 NPCs mod to let us mess around with companion stats a little.

 

 

 

 Though it seems Pelle is going to have to suck it up and tank (unless, of course, she's full of crap design as well).

 

paladin tanks are a bit misleading. sure, they got great potential defenses, but tanking is as much about getting and holding aggro as it is about being a damage sink.  fighters got superior engagement when in defender mode. fighter abilities is also more tank focused than is paladin abilities.  am of the opinion that the deeper you get into the game, the paladin-as-tank builds will be decreasing in efficacy.  that being said, particular on normal mode, we expect that the paladin will suffice in the tank role, even if it ultimately is not as impressive as a fighter tank.. or a monk tank.

 

Engagement really isn't as important for tanking as it pretends to be. If you play with the mechanic turned off via mod, it becomes apparent that just having your tanks in front (and in the fight first) is the main determining factor. Between Faith and Conviction, Righteous Soul, and the various Exhortations, I think they'll work pretty well all the way through at the two things that matter - soaking up damage, and using occasional support abilities.

 

Anyway, I hope you're wrong, because support-tank is really the only role in which paladins can excel.