PAX South 2015 live thread

[Surface Reflection]

You have a magnificent community here.

 

Amazing, from bottm up.

 

Im really surprised why devs dont come here more often and discuss things with several geniouses who contribute so much.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Chris Avellone was more involved in the forum community when he was under publisher constraints than he's been under this Kickstarter. He was also very active on the BIS forums. Same when he was doing the Fallout Bible.

[StrangeCat]

Game looks like it has a lot of promise now.  I don't know if I will ever time to play it but I wish your team success, and more games in the future.

See ya!

[Leferd]

Josh Sawyer interview.

 

[Sanquiz]

More i see, more i like.

[Hormalakh]

Hey Chris Avellone, Matt Sheets, and the rest of the developer team at Obsidian. You guys rock. You engage with us everywhere. Some of you do here in this cesspool that is the Obsidian forums, some of you engage us over in the other cesspool that is the Codex, some of you engage other fans over at SA or Badgame or even via your twitters/tumblrs/vines/whatevers. Hell you've been to PAX and E3 promoting your game as the developers (not the marketing team) and are always willing to asnwer our questions and even sometimes engage in the butthurt.

 

Cheers to you guys. You've worked hard and you deserve the praise you'll undoubtedly get from this game. Rock on and don't let a bunch of chuckleheads give you grief.

 

We love you guys.

[Luckmann]

Ain't that the truth. When I bought NWN2 on release, it wouldn't even install. It was still more playable than any AAA title Ubisoft released this year.

 

To this day, NWN2 does not work properly on my computer. CTD:s and even Bluescreens incessantly. So yeah. KotOR2 was unfinished, but at least it worked.

[aeonsim]

 

I'm happy for you. That was also 15 or so years ago (I think?) under a different developer/publisher. I'm not saying that fan interactions are new, I'm not saying that all community feedback in the past has been useless (there were good interactions during NWN2 as well where they ended up integrating a mod into the actual game amongst other things). But opening up the dev process from day one and taking into account feedback from day one is new for them.

We weren't talking about the development process. Nor did this discussion begin with anyone claiming that the development process for PoE isn't refreshingly open and transparent. That's YOUR goal post moving/stream of consciousness.

 

We were discussing Chris Avellone's Ironic comment that going the kickstarter route means he's been free to directly interact with the community. That is why I asked everyone else here if they've ever seen a Chris Avellone post in the PoE forums. Remember?

 

 

As others noted why does it have to be this forum? Avellone is rather active on twitter, he's attending the Cons and talking to people and he's doing the odd interview while the game is in development they are all community interactions (Avellone, communications, other people = Community interaction). Now how is this different from publisher funded games well, I don't really remember Avellone attending Cons and being interviewed and discussing the game WHILE it is in development (after the game was released sure) when working on other games.

 

There are simply more forms of communication online now than in the days of IWD2 so it is to be expected that the dev's will spread there time around different forums and methods of communication and that they will develop favourites/defaults that aren't the OBS forums.

 

Community interaction is far more than just answering questions in a forum, and secondly being able to interact with the community when ever you want with out having to run it past a publishing PR department, gives you greater freedom to interact with the community whether or not any interaction actually occurs.

[Sedrefilos]

Liked what I saw. It was short, yes, but I've been spoiled enough with all the livestreams anyway

 

About devs not being present here... if I was an Obsidian dev, I wouldn't want to participate in these forums either.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Sedrefilos

[NegativeEdge]

The reason they don't post here is because they're elitist and think people here are beneath them, it's not really that surprising that a group of SoCal, TED generation technocrats feel no solidarity with normal people, working in an industry with no unionisation to speak of and where you're far more likely to see Atlas shrugged in peoples back pockets than Das Kapital.

They don't want to interact with the fans because they don't like you and they don't like you because there's still a fan fiction thread that hasn't been laughed off the front page after 5 days and a 6th (?) iteration of a romance thread. They wish you weren't a bunch of unreconstructed men between 18 - 40 who will discuss ad infinitum the merits of video game romances without irony, have adventure time avatars and be so common.

They would rather post on forums that mock that sort of thing and until recently I would have agreed but elitism is a scourge and ultimately an anathema to the ideas of solidarity and communicating shared experience so quit self-flaggelating about why they don't post here.

 

 

 

 

About devs not being present here... if I was an Obsidian dev, I wouldn't want to participate in these forums either.

 

Why do you hate the people?

[PrimeJunta]

@NegativeEdge Cool analysis. Wrong, but cool. :salute:

 

Politically at least Josh is way left of center (although, sadly, probably not an actual Communist), and I haven't gotten much of a whiff of Objectivist lunacy from any of the others either.

 

I still stand by my theory: they don't hang out here because they'd rather hang out with people who aren't colossal jerks.

[Tigrin]

I can confirm what Matt said... a lot of devs read the forums. I can typically bring up a thread and someone's read it and can discuss it with me. I typically browse during a break or on my own free time, like now when I can't sleep. Especially after something happens, like we post an update or do a panel, I'm interested to see what people are saying. I sure wasn't expecting how this thread evolved.

 

I used to be excited about the idea of interacting with the fans. Even if there's not a lot I can say, because it's very political being a dev with NDAs and all, I thought at least I could discuss things about our games, or games in general, with people who are just as excited about them. After browsing the forums, I don't get the impression that's what people want. As a female dev especially, I find what's going on in the off topic section, with all the threads of photos of women and threads degrading feminists, insulting at best and frightening at worst.

 

I obviously can't and don't speak for anyone else at Obsidian. But I can say for myself that I don't find this a welcoming environment. Personally I could never imagine talking about or treating the people I admire in the games or entertainment industry the way many people on here speak of Obsidian devs and our games.

[Luckmann]

@NegativeEdge Cool analysis. Wrong, but cool. :salute:

 

Politically at least Josh is way left of center (although, sadly, probably not an actual Communist), and I haven't gotten much of a whiff of Objectivist lunacy from any of the others either.

 

I still stand by my theory: they don't hang out here because they'd rather hang out with people who aren't colossal jerks.

 

Nothing NegativeEdge said has anything to do with Josh's purported politics. That kind of "elitism" (which I would use extremely loosely in this context, because actual elitism isn't bad, but what is generally thought of as elitist behaviour is absolutely devastating) is incredibly common in the (particular western) "intellectual" (read: academic) left-wing.

 

It's not particularly consistent with the supposed ideal, but marxism is nothing if not hypocritical in execution.

[PrimeJunta]

Nothing NegativeEdge said has anything to do with Josh's purported politics. 

 

Not true. He specifically mentioned Atlas Shrugged and Capital.

 

(Edit: Also, vanguardism is explicitly elitist. Nothing hypocritical about it.)

 

(Edit edit: but that's another tangent for which this is neither the time nor the place.)

Edited January 26, 2015 by PrimeJunta

[Sensuki]

Call me crazy, but after reading this thread I get the impression that this isn't actually about communication or whether the devs hang out on the forum or not. It's about who the game panders to.

The people that are annoyed at the 'lack of communication' are the people pissed off with how the combat (among other things) has turned out, and don't find playing the game very fun. The people white knighting the other side just happen to be the people who are happy how the combat in the game has turned out.

Case in fact: I don't think anyone on the Obsidian dev team is an 'IE grog' like myself, Sarex, Stun, Hiro and the others (which is a shame) so it's unsurprising that the game caters to the 'goons' instead. Josh has also expressed a vocal dislike of many of the things that made BG2 combat really fun and I don't think any of the devs recognize or enjoy the RTS-isms of the Infinity Engine style combat, from all the dev gameplay examples I've seen they all play it pretty bog standard.

I understand and share the frustration that many of the people that are pissed off in this thread have with the game's combat, and it is equally frustrating when when our points are either ignored or shrugged off. I have also participated in some pretty nasty stuff because of this frustration in the past (see the engagement threads) but my frustration was mostly aimed at the other backers who were pro-engagement.

Badmouthing the developers due to that frustration aint gonna get you anywhere though and it is self-defeating as it means that they will spend less time here. I have busted my guts out in the beta trying to get some of our agenda through via my suggestion threads, and help make the game more playable by submitting ~50 bug reports per patch. The less time the developers spend on the forums, the less of that stuff gets noticed.

So if you wouldn't mind, consider taking a different approach with that in mind next time. Alas, much of the damage has probably already been done.

@Tigrin, if you're still reading - IME most "General Discussion" areas of any forum on the net are best-avoided. There are plenty of people here who would willingly engage in conversations about the game, and the animation side of it. 

[Luckmann]

I can confirm what Matt said... a lot of devs read the forums. I can typically bring up a thread and someone's read it and can discuss it with me. I typically browse during a break or on my own free time, like now when I can't sleep. Especially after something happens, like we post an update or do a panel, I'm interested to see what people are saying. I sure wasn't expecting how this thread evolved.

 

I used to be excited about the idea of interacting with the fans. Even if there's not a lot I can say, because it's very political being a dev with NDAs and all, I thought at least I could discuss things about our games, or games in general, with people who are just as excited about them. After browsing the forums, I don't get the impression that's what people want. As a female dev especially, I find what's going on in the off topic section, with all the threads of photos of women and threads degrading feminists, insulting at best and frightening at worst.

 

I obviously can't and don't speak for anyone else at Obsidian. But I can say for myself that I don't find this a welcoming environment. Personally I could never imagine talking about or treating the people I admire in the games or entertainment industry the way many people on here speak of Obsidian devs and our games.

First, if the female photo-threads irk you, as a developer at Obsidian, I'd think you'd ask for their removal. It is certainly not a staple of the industry to have such threads on the official forum(s). When I saw the current ongoing thread, I was actual a fair bit "Oooooh.. kay...?" myself - not that I'm bothered by it, I just thought it was weird, and I wouldn't be bothered by a male version either - although I'd still think it was weird. And while I can see how you'd think they're weird too, I don't see why you'd be bothered by it. But if you are, and you have a solid argument for it, change the board rules.

 

As for degrading feminists; it's not degrading feminists, it's feminists degrading themselves. In any forum where you allow the discussion of political topics, there are going to be leanings you don't appreciate. There is no reason you'd consider that frightening, although if you associate yourself with the people criticism is levied against, I can see how you'd feel insulted. But feeling insulted in that way is probably the first step to questioning your stance; people don't tend to be insulted by facts unless there's some cognitive dissonance going on.

 

And finally, the Off-Topic or General Forum parts of a forum isn't really relevant for the exchange of ideas relating to specific projects, so well there's that.

 

 

Nothing NegativeEdge said has anything to do with Josh's purported politics.

 

Not true. He specifically mentioned Atlas Shrugged and Capital.

 

(Edit: Also, vanguardism is explicitly elitist. Nothing hypocritical about it.)

 

(Edit edit: but that's another tangent for which this is neither the time nor the place.)

 

And specifically mentioning Atlas Shrugged and Das Kapital doesn't have anything to do with someone's purported politics. There are plenty of supposed socialists that are more likely to have actually read Atlas Shrugged than Das Kapital; I know multiple purported "national socialists" that are more likely to have Das Kapital in their back pocket than Mein Kampf.

Edited January 26, 2015 by TrueNeutral
Removed link: Obsidian has a zero-tolerance policy with regard to racial, ethnic, gender, religious, disablement, and/or sexually discriminating remarks.

[cloudpm]

To react about the fact that players will only get xp once for "meeting" the creatures the first time... A suggestion : maybe it would help to just attribute a low amount of xp, that would be unsignificant for leveling up, but psychologically here to meet peoples' standards from old rpgs.

 

Let's say, main character's level is 40. Next level amount of xp required : 873 450 xp. Killing a group of spiders : 150 xp. It would be better than just "nothing". As Josh said above in the video, "it feels weird for some players".

 

[Labadal]

I can confirm what Matt said... a lot of devs read the forums. I can typically bring up a thread and someone's read it and can discuss it with me. I typically browse during a break or on my own free time, like now when I can't sleep. Especially after something happens, like we post an update or do a panel, I'm interested to see what people are saying. I sure wasn't expecting how this thread evolved.

 

I used to be excited about the idea of interacting with the fans. Even if there's not a lot I can say, because it's very political being a dev with NDAs and all, I thought at least I could discuss things about our games, or games in general, with people who are just as excited about them. After browsing the forums, I don't get the impression that's what people want. As a female dev especially, I find what's going on in the off topic section, with all the threads of photos of women and threads degrading feminists, insulting at best and frightening at worst.

 

I obviously can't and don't speak for anyone else at Obsidian. But I can say for myself that I don't find this a welcoming environment. Personally I could never imagine talking about or treating the people I admire in the games or entertainment industry the way many people on here speak of Obsidian devs and our games.

That's a shame. I think they are vocal minority. There's a lot of people that appreciate Obsidian and their games. OE is my favorite company in the video games industry, but I don't say that all the time. My presence on these boards should speak for itself. It's the only forum that belongs to a company that I visit on a regular basis.

 

About the female threads, the one with the pictures got closed, but if it were me and I didn't like that type of thread, I'd just avoid it. I avoid many threads here. Why? Because they aren't interesting or relevant for me.

 

Developer interaction is great, but I can understand why many devs don't want to post here, especially these last few months. But you also have to remember that Pillars of Eternity is a crowd funded game. We have been shown stuff that has been unpolished, stuff that would probably not have been shown if it was a game payed for by a publisher.

 

In the end, it's sad that the developers find the environment on these boards unwelcoming, and I guess I would have to blame the posters for that. On the other hand, I think one needs to have a thick skin, too. 

[Blarghagh]

This thread is not to turn into a discussion of feminism, capiche? We've got enough of that going on in Way Off Topic and if it turns into that, I'm closing it down.

[archangel979]

Well it has kind of gone off topic from original purpose already which was to talk about the PAX stream even if feminism is no longer mentioned.

Any additional feedback about the stream is just going to get lost or it is lost as anyone reading from start will stop once they hit the "rough" parts.

Edited January 26, 2015 by archangel979

[PrimeJunta]

And specifically mentioning Atlas Shrugged and Das Kapital doesn't have anything to do with someone's purported politics. 

 

Riiiight. :eyeroll:

[PrimeJunta]

This thread is not to turn into a discussion of feminism, capiche? We've got enough of that going on in Way Off Topic and if it turns into that, I'm closing it down.

 

Haha, the only one who mentioned feminism until you did was... a dev. 

 

Way to welcome developer interaction in these forums, Mr. Mod.

[GordonHalfman]

 

This thread is not to turn into a discussion of feminism, capiche? We've got enough of that going on in Way Off Topic and if it turns into that, I'm closing it down.

 

Haha, the only one who mentioned feminism until you did was... a dev. 

 

Way to welcome developer interaction in these forums, Mr. Mod.

 

I believe he is reacting to Luckmann posting tumblr images of neo-nazi quotes.

[PrimeJunta]

I believe he is reacting to Luckmann posting tumblr images of neo-nazi quotes.

 

Oh, I missed those.

 

He'd know where to find them of course...

[PrimeJunta]

About the female threads, the one with the pictures got closed, but if it were me and I didn't like that type of thread, I'd just avoid it. I avoid many threads here. Why? Because they aren't interesting or relevant for me.

 

...

 

In the end, it's sad that the developers find the environment on these boards unwelcoming, and I guess I would have to blame the posters for that. On the other hand, I think one needs to have a thick skin, too. 

 

Are you familiar with the terms "mansplaining" or "whitesplaining" by any chance? Just curious...