Surface Reflection

You have a magnificent community here. Amazing, from bottm up. Im really surprised why devs dont come here more often and discuss things with several geniouses who contribute so much.

To re-establish the curriculum for the third time... There is a specific feature i saw in all so far released gameplay videos. That feature compounds with a few other ones, one being the way engagement is working now, to create combat gameplay that is not really good, inspiring or engaging. The thing is that you kinda forgot to pay a lot of attention to the Real Time part of the combat. There is practically none of it. Its all just pause-pause-pause-pause. You are paying too much attention to pausing and the dry skills and mechanics... that dont visually translate into real time part of the gameplay at all. If you really want to have a great real time with pause combat and gameplay - you really, really need to invest a lot of time and effort into the REAL TIME section of the combat. - speaking generally - By that i specifically mean this: Your characters in this game close the distance to each other and then they just stand there and swing at each other, interrupted by frequent pausing - while they just stand woodenly, not moving, not dodging, not doing anything at all. Any action and reaction is simply transferred through stats and calculations. Not through physical movement of the characters or creatures. Sure they move when the player makes them move around, but thats just walking to a different-same spot and then doing the same thing all over again. Visually. The combat is really hampered by the animations style and overall visual approach. The new mechanics would actually fully blossom only with appropriate visual representation. PoE currently uses the old DnD "characters stand in place in front of one another and swing away", which pretty much ruins any organic flow a real time combat should exhibit. But there is actually no need for that anymore. That old presentation was there because atleast partly the technology didnt alow for anything much better. Now it does. There should be some movement to those bodies, some should be lurching, heaving, stepping around, jumping back and forth etc. Barbarians should be ponderous, swinging with wild swings or strikes, Rogues agile and lean, fast moving, dodging. All combined with swings of attacks and defense moves. - (that are already there) - All these new mechanics would play into such new physical moves and animations perfectly. But right now, they simply dont translate into the Real Time part of the "Real Time with Pause". I had hoped that the game will take such approach when i saw all those guys experimenting with weapons around Obsidian offices in that old update... but it seems you guys were just taking in how the weapons move. Not how the people holding them move in combat. However, due to incredible amount of work this kind of visual representation would require im thinking this is far from possible, especially at this stage of the game development. On the other hand... you will not be able to make combat really interesting, engaging or new in any way unless you do it. And... its real time components or flow will end up looking worse then many current Turn Based games. That would be the situation described in general terms. Of course its understandable that you moved in this direction because of legacy of IE games, but i feel that is one feature that also needed to get a bit of a revamp for the better, done appropriately, fitting for this specific style of the game. There is about three or a few more months left, so its doubtful any major change would be attempted, but on the other hand its kind of a enough time to improve this side of the game if you would decide to do it. Hopefully, such improvements are already a part of the general work towards improving the beta into final release state. It wouldn't exactly be a surprise.... some new animations had been added to and improved the Monk class, just recently... so its practically as usual in game dev. - there is no updates that actually claim anything different, either. - Anyway, It really feels to me it would be a shame to have combat less engaging (pun not intended) when the rest of the game is so brilliant and fresh and well done. Such as the awesome text adventures, a start of a very good main plot story, good characters, good dialogue, great locations and setting and all that stuff. ... What can be actually done is a matter of being realistic and figuring out what additions and improvements of how characters move and visually interact could be realistically doable, considering the stage of development and other such realities. Which means these would have to be minimalistic, fit for the style of the game and its PoV additions, made as expressions of new mechanics and character abilities - of course, since that would make them incredibly useful for players and devs and Ai, not just for making combat behave and look more organic, more "fluid" if you will. A lot can be done with smaller changes of the already existing material, for example the speed of characters general movement could be reduced as or when their endurance gets depleted. The ordinary walk animation isnt that difficult to turn into a slower, kind of hobbling version that could serve to present some form of critical hits, or into fast two steps forward - attack, two steps back move. (using the ordinary attack animation). Or to have those that are in engagement visually move around the area together, fighting their own small duel kind of a thing. That would practically only use already existing assets and animations, you would only need to limit the range of their spin so they dont dance off too far away. Not a problem to set some radii, right? Of course the real question is whether you devs would want to do this. If you dont then this thread wont matter much, there is no expectation on my side that you must do this because i am saying so. Tis just a suggestion. And it all wont work very well or achieve anything much if the Engagement mechanics stay the same as now, anyway. Its a two pronged problem that crates a negative feedback loops for gameplay as experienced by the end user. ... Due to the "community" practically being under control of trolls and cheap scum, no replies are needed. Im just making a post for the devs to see my suggestion clearly.

Even watching a letsplay of BG2 or just reading it - is currently better and more interesting to someone who has also played it many times, then Pillars of Eternity.

Its a great shame that the game doesnt represnt these new mechanics and abilities in better character body movement, so it all stays in the relm of statistics on the paper, dry calculations to watch roll over the combat log. And, ofcourse, when you combine that with everyone and everything having engagement mechanic, which the Ai must consider as a very important parameter... It creates a unintentional negative reinforcement loop effect and makes the combat look very static and constrained of almost any actual movement, therefore derived of any tactics that are usualy a part of combat dependant on moving around in space. Which is a really big chunk of combat, actually.

So long dumbass. Learn to first read what you are replying to in the future. Thats considered polite.

Read the whole bloody post are you mental? Are you blind? Disabled? Context limited? That is only a part where is speak about the issue on general level, i even said so to make it easier for the likes of you, ffs...

You havent offended me, its just that kind of opinion contributes nothing to the subject of the thread. There may be people (congratulations on being chosen as a spokeperson for the "people" btw), who think whatever about it but that doesnt change the fact that the game combat is extremely static now, that it looks and plays much worse then IE games (plenty of threads about it from many other posters) and that some appropriate adidtional movement would improve one side of the overal problem. If you are then claiming it doesnt seem bad for you and that you are ok with how things are then - fine. What the hell do i have to say to that except :shrug: ? There is no sacrificing of mechanical consistency because i am arguing for improved movement based on stats and mechanics of the game first and foremost. Havent you read what i wrote above at all? Indeed, lets hope some people can contribute more useful posts... Well, except that i am supposed to live in terror of displeasing teh moderators by saying they do a really bad job - when they do a bad job, which is pretty much the usual on teh internet forums... - an example of how pathetic and low a person can get, after he proclaimed he so put me on ignore, after he tried to wrote some cheap insulting post and claim how he is right before "escaping"... and then appearing in my thread to post that self embarassing failure of logic. all because: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/69039-engagement-mechanics-problems-and-solutions/page-14?do=findComment&comment=1553694 Better yes, but the real butter is better how exactly. Which ones of the new mechanics and abilities and moves could be better represented through movement during combat, in a way that would give it a more organic, moving, lively representation? Some surely can and that would make all such additions and improvements stay within the style and theme of the game, while it would directly represent specific states and mechanics at work. It would mean you get a direct visual feedbacl on what any of your characters is doing. And it would increase the tactical gameplay since the characters would actually move around - especially if engagement is changed and adjusted as in that other suggestion of mine.

Im not TALKING ABOUT ATTACK ANIMATIONS. I am talking about improving movement during combat. Also, while its nice to see someone correctly presenting his opinion... that opinion is really pointless in this discussion. With it, you are just basically saying that you dont mind if the game plays badly. And if everything stays the same as it is now. Thats totally fine as far as am concerned. You dont think thats bad? I couldnt care less. Just dont write that in this thread, because this thread is aboout what small minimalistically designed additions could help make combat less static and boring.

The first thread got locked down because of moderators inability to stop trolls (to put it kindly) continuous repetitive off topic posting, and various false accusations and such nonsense. So - a new thread. This time all those who will repeat any of that stuff will be automatically put on ignore. To re-establish the curriculum: There is a specific feature i saw in all so far released gameplay videos. That feature compounds with a few other ones, one being the way engagement is working now, to create combat gameplay that is not really good, inspiring or engaging. The thing is that you kinda forgot to pay a lot of attention to the Real Time part of the combat. There is practically none of it. Its all just pause-pause-pause-pause. You are paying too much attention to pausing and the dry skills and mechanics... that dont visually translate into real time part of the gameplay at all. If you really want to have a great real time with pause combat and gameplay - you really, really need to invest a lot of time and effort into the REAL TIME section of the combat. - speaking generally.- By that i specifically mean this: Your characters in this game close the distance to each other and then they just stand there and swing at each other, interrupted by frequent pausing - while they just stand woodenly, not moving, not dodging, not doing anything at all. Any action and reaction is simply transferred through stats and calculations. Not through physical movement of the characters or creatures. Sure they move when the player makes them move around, but thats just walking to a different-same spot and then doing the same thing all over again. Visually. The combat is really hampered by the animations style and overall visual approach. The new mechanics would actually fully blossom only with appropriate visual representation. PoE currently uses the old DnD "characters stand in place in front of one another and swing away", which pretty much ruins any organic flow a real time combat should exhibit. But there is actually no need for that anymore. That old presentation was there because atleast partly the technology didnt alow for anything much better. Now it does. There should be some movement to those bodies, some should be lurching, heaving, stepping around, jumping back and forth etc. Barbarians should be ponderous, swinging with wild swings or strikes, Rogues agile and lean, fast moving, dodging. All combined with swings of attacks and defense moves. - (that are already there) - All these new mechanics would play into such new physical moves and animations perfectly. But right now, they simply dont translate into the Real Time part of the "Real Time with Pause". I had hoped that the game will take such approach when i saw all those guys experimenting with weapons around Obsidian offices in that old update... but it seems you guys were just taking in how the weapons move. Not how the people holding them move in combat. However, due to incredible amount of work this kind of visual representation would require im thinking this is far from possible, especially at this stage of the game development. On the other hand... you will not be able to make combat really interesting, engaging or new in any way unless you do it. And... its real time components or flow will end up looking worse then many current Turn Based games. That would be the situation in general terms. Of course its understandable that they moved in this direction because of legacy of IE games but i feel that is one feature that also needed to get a bit of a revamp for the better, done appropriately, fitting for this specific style of the game. There is about three or a few more months left, so its doubtful any major change would be attempted, but on the other hand its kind of a enough time to improve this side of the game if they would decide to do it. Hopefully, such improvements are already a part of the general work towards improving the beta into final release state. It wouldn't exactly be a surprise.... AND they actually had added some new animations and so improved the Monk, just recently... so its practically as usual in game dev. - there is no updates that actually claim anything different, either. Anyway, It really feels to me it would be a shame to have combat less engaging (pun not intended) when the rest of the game is so brilliant and fresh and well done. Such as the awesome text adventures, a start of a very good main plot story, good characters, good dialogue, great locations and setting and all that stuff. ... What can be actually done is a matter of being realistic and figuring out what additions and improvements of how characters move and visually interact could be realistically doable, considering the stage of development and other such realities. Which means these would have to be minimalistic, fit for the style of the game and its PoV additions, made as expressions of new mechanics and character abilities - of course, since that would make them incredibly useful for players and devs and Ai, not just for making combat behave and look more organic, more "fluid" if you will. A lot can be done with smaller changes of the already existing material, for example the speed of characters general movement could be reduced as or when their endurance gets depleted. The ordinary walk animation isnt that difficult to turn into a slower, kind of hobbling version that could serve to present some form of critical hits, or into fast two steps forward - attack, two steps back move. (using the ordinary attack animation). Or to have those that are in engagement visually move around the area together, fighting their own small duel kind of a thing. That would practically only use already existing assets and animations, you would only need to limit the range of their spin so they dont dance off too far away. Not a problem to set some radii, right? Of course the real question is whether the devs would want to do this. If they dont then this thread wont matter much, And it wont work very well or very much if the Engagement mechanics stay the same as now. So post something constructive, on topic - or dont post at all. - currently being comfortably sick and coughing in the bat cave. More coffee Alfred... cough...cough...coughghhhhhhh...

I think you people are certifiably insane and not aware of what you are saying or thinking, really. So.... youre saying it would be the same as if you were standing in place and not suffering the disengagement attacks? EH? Except you would suffer disengagement attacks from any other enemies that had you in engagement range if you would just move away from one of them, in case you were outnumbered, just like it happens right now. Isnt that so? Or would they follow you too so it would be the same as if you stayed in place? EH? Or would they had some magical reason not to hit you with disengagement attacks? Because you moved slowly? So they got bored? coupled with the fact that everyone would still have engagement no different then now...- which means you would be engaged all the time, and no disenagegement would be possible since it would be all the same.... and that i am actually arguing for improved movement in combat in my other thread in which BigHead also splurted some inane objection then left all huffed up and purple in the face. and the fact it wouldnt mean anything if engagement itself isnt changed in a more fundamental way. It would mean that BigHead idea achieves nothing, except being incredibly inane and self defeating. But yeah, it actually sounds great! Obsidian should totally do it! Backpedalling ftw! Im not sure has anyone mentioned removing engagement completely before but this snipped bit is one thing you got right, inadvertently. Thats why my Mean engagement system idea is actually a working real solution, atleast when it comes to ideas.

Yes, he is very simplistic. You are obviously not capable of seeing the obvious. and that is that his opinion about it, as several just like it before are not really the topic of the discussion since this is not a voting thread. Therefore his opinion is noted and disregarded as irrelavant. And repeating it like a psychiotic bascetcase doesnt make it any more relevant or on topic. Just like this post of yours is basically repeating the same thing, because it seems your mind is malfunctioning. Youre also trying to falsely represent what someone else was saying without any proof of it, just declaring its so because it would make you feel better. I.E you are mindless. Here is the actual quote: And who gives a **** what he wants anyway? So your post is reported as off topic, which it is, except being pointless, and quite dumb. Hopefully it will be deleted, otherwise this thread will continue to be filled up by ludicrous and laughable strawman deranged posts by local bascetcases, which will serve as a tastament of this "community" inteligence, wit and ability to think critically, based on those few cases.

spell checking works funky on these forums, but as long as its understood... Im not actually angry at the BigHead at all because he is just so ridiculously beyond laughable it isnt even funny. Its just sad really. But also fortunately not of great consequence since devs are fortunately sane people with a "bit" wider overview. That all looks like some posts made for absurdity purposes, really... like some twisted cabaret. I can hardly stop myself from sarcastically arguing in favor, if the goal would be to secretly completely ruin the game. and its especially kind of weirdly fascinating watching that almost fanatical resentment of facts and rejection of even listening to or considering arguments to the contrary, but instead only splurging more declaratory one liners and fake lying ad hominems. just imagine how encounter with Lions i described a page back would look and play out with these mechanics Lions attack in straight dull lines like they do now, everyone engages everyone else - if you try to move fast you get hit, - if you move slow enemy follows you around any you cannot disengage and they hit you more all that time if you try to disengage you first turn in place exposing your back for an attack before trying to slowly move away which doesnt disengage you so you get to repeat all that until you get killed from all those hits in the back. Its a fascinating parody, really. I am doing it a service by even addressing it but hey, at least its really ridiculously hilarious.

How about deleting about a page of continous repeating of proclamations that the animations i suggest are somehow "complex" (despite blatant explanations to the contrary) and even claiming they are complex because thats like his opinion? - As a way to excuse a strawman argument that "there would be a tonn of complex animations" needed? How about that?

Not that it matters much to you, since you have a tendency to argue for the sake of arguing without any merit to anything that rolls out of your mouth, Oh, thats a second time youre trying to lie about me by using a strawman. Youre going to pay for that dearly. Start by quoting a single post where i argue either for the sake of it, or without any merrit - which is what you are doing right now with your suggestion and this sentence above. Actually. Yes, fighting while moving - which is also what i suggested needs improvements. THAT IS NOT DISENGAGEMENT. Its fighting while moving. And... even your intelect should realize that if you are moving slowly - you cannot disengage. As in - you continue to fight. >Doesnt matter if you move backwards or sideways or forwards - you are fighting. Especially if your oponent is being "pulled" by you, as you yourself suggested... genious. Not if you manage to SUCCEFULLY DISENGAGE. That means you escaped that oponent effective reach momentarily and went after another or infact had managed to run away. Thats what succesfull disengagement would allow you to do. Thats only because you couldnt run away fast enough and your enemies were being "pulled" after you, while also being smarter - so you coudlnt DISENGAGE. While, guessing by your general level of smartness, you probably think that trying to "disengage" is turning the back while standing in place - against the enemy with longer reach weapon. because you are a GENIOUS OF MERRIT. Thats only because you cannot argue with any merrit about any of your "ideas" that roll out of that mouth of yours. You can just drop declaratory statements how something MUST BE but you cannot explain any of it, since its actually pretty much ridiculous. And you dont even understand what disengagement is meant to be. Not to mention other wider consequences since its not only about your characters... And then all you can do is run and stick your head into the sand. Congratulations. What a clown...