392 Discussion

[prodigydancer]

I can see why they would ban opening combat with charm though, since it's a easy meat shield just like summons.

Yes, it's an easy meat shield, so what? They should deal with the problem in a different way rather than just slapping "combat only" flag on the ability. The whole situation reminds me of the melee engagement system - yet another completely arbitrary restriction. What they do every time they can't solve a potential gameplay or balance problem in a creative way is basically telling us: "Hey, doing X is the wrong way to play our game. We won't allow you to play our game in a wrong way so you can no longer do X. And the only right way to play our game is how we ourselves would play it." This line of thinking is about the worst thing that can happen to a game developer. Consequently PoE is turning from a promising project to a mediocre game at an alarming speed. Edited January 5, 2015 by prodigydancer

[morhilane]

I like the cipher class, it is a bit different from the others.    I may take a cipher for my first playthrough of the game.   Wonder how it would work teamed with a monk.  A fighting machine and a mind control machine.  Hmm.  But then I never solo this type of game there are plenty of solo games available.

 

The Monk is going to kill everyone before the Cipher has the time to cast a second power...

[Ragniz]

 

I can see why they would ban opening combat with charm though, since it's a easy meat shield just like summons.

Yes, it's an easy meat shield, so what? They should deal with the problem in a different way rather than just slapping "combat only" flag on it. The whole situation reminds me of the melee engagement system. What they do every time they can't solve a potential gameplay or balance problem in a creative way is basically telling us: "Hey, doing X is the wrong way to play our game. We won't allow you to play our game in a wrong way so you can no longer do X. And the only right way to play our game is how we ourselves would play it." This line of thinking is about the worst thing that can happen to a game developer. Consequently PoE is turning from a promising project to a mediocre game at an alarming speed.

 

 

I agree, making charm break on a damage threshold, make it so you cast it on a ally to charm his attacker or just increasing it's focus cost would make for a more elegant solution than outright baning you from casting it out of combat.

[Nakia]

 

I like the cipher class, it is a bit different from the others.    I may take a cipher for my first playthrough of the game.   Wonder how it would work teamed with a monk.  A fighting machine and a mind control machine.  Hmm.  But then I never solo this type of game there are plenty of solo games available.

 

The Monk is going to kill everyone before the Cipher has the time to cast a second power...

 

If necessary I play on hard or if they are that good there is always Path of the Damned.    Love that monk and have never cared for them in other games.  The cipher fascinates me.  Plus she has "spells" she can use before the combat begins.  So she will get at least two spells.  

[Karkarov]

You know you are dealing with a new beta tester.... when they don't remember how you used to solo the BB with a Cipher and never even get hit it was so easy.  That's why all the Ciphers skills are combat only now ;p, some of them got nerfed too.

[Nakia]

You know you are dealing with a new beta tester.... when they don't remember how you used to solo the BB with a Cipher and never even get hit it was so easy.  That's why all the Ciphers skills are combat only now ;p, some of them got nerfed too.

What has that to do with the current update?  So new people should not have opinions is that what you are saying.  Please explain yourself because that sounds rather dismissive and patronizing to me.

[PrimeJunta]

The combat only restrictions make no (gameplay) sense to me. I can think of technical reasons they'd want to do this; it might make some of them marginally easier to implement if you're a lazy programmer. Same thing with not being allowed to leave a map while in combat.

[Sensuki]

I didn't play much of the Cipher in the first three beta versions where they were hands down the best class to use. I played one the most in v333, and you could continuously abuse the Tenuous Grasp spell to win encounters. They've now made that spell have basically no duration so it's not even worth picking - which isn't a very good solution to the balance of the spell.

 

I think some of the restrictions on combat casting are a bit overboard, and/or not even really the problem with why the spells were OP. They're just bandaids over a bullethole.

 

A lot of the problems with the status effect spells is that they do not aggro enemy units correctly/enemies have trouble detecting player units that aren't in their FOV. Fixing that would solve most of the problems.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Sensuki

[Luckmann]

You know you are dealing with a new beta tester.... when they don't remember how you used to solo the BB with a Cipher and never even get hit it was so easy.  That's why all the Ciphers skills are combat only now ;p, some of them got nerfed too.

 

I'm not saying that the Cipher isn't powerful or even too powerful of an opener. I don't think anyone has argued otherwise. What we're saying - it's certainly what I'm saying - is that "Combat Only" is a cop-out, a terrible mechanic, and a very game-y, arbitrary and artificial restriction.

 

I can't wrap my head around why it'd be there, because as I play, I feel "Why the hell can my character do this now, but not a split second ago?".

 

It has nothing to do with balancing, really. It has everything to do with how it feels, and it feels absolutely horrible.

 

If the powers were unbalanced or causing problems, making them "Combat Only" was a bad solution, not because it didn't "fix" the problem, but because it introduced a badwrongfun mechanic when what they should've done was rework the powers or find another solution that works better with the game.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I agree, Luckmann! Combat-only feels contrived and absolutely bizarre!

And more often than not, regardless of builds in the BB, I have begrudgingly dealt with the painful "split-sec pause-unpause to start combat off-pause to select a combat only skill"-routine and secretly wished I could eradicate that combat only-threshold. It makes no sense at all. If I cast any spell or do any hostile action on a target, that should count as part of the start of combat, me being the instigator. It should be simple to code too.

 

PrimeJunta: Yup, leaving the map should be allowed. The same goes for the very shaky disengagement from combat altogether mechanics. In the first builds I ran into horrific bugs when I had rogues using the Escape skill to no avail. No matter how well a single rogue escaped, it could never escape the state of combat, and hence not the map either (like the Skaen).

Edited January 6, 2015 by IndiraLightfoot

[Sensuki]

I also think you should be able to use transitions in combat too. I know why you can't, but since enemies recharge Endurance anyway, the ones that you didn't kill should still be there with full health/per-encounters again.

[Luckmann]

I agree, Luckmann! Combat-only feels contrived and absolutely bizarre!

And more often than not, regardless of builds in the BB, I have begrudgingly dealt with the painful "split-sec pause-unpause to start combat off-pause to select a combat only skill"-routine and secretly wished I could eradicate that combat only-threshold. It makes no sense at all. If I cast any spell or do any hostile action on a target, that should count as part of the start of combat, me being the instigator. It should be simple to code too.

 

PrimeJunta: Yup, leaving the map should be allowed. The same goes for the very shaky disengagement from combat altogether mechanics. In the first builds I ran into horrific bugs when I had rogues using the Escape skill to no avail. No matter how well a single rogue escaped, it could never escape the state of combat, and hence not the map either (like the Skaen).

 

Highlight mine. This is the end result of the decision of "Combat Only" powers and it feels contrieved, like you're fighting the system, rather than playing a game.

 

 

I also think you should be able to use transitions in combat too. I know why you can't, but since enemies recharge Endurance anyway, the ones that you didn't kill should still be there with full health/per-encounters again.

 

This is another one of those "I understand why they did it, but it's absolutely useless"-things. The way I understand it, it was introduced to stop people from abusing it in some way, by jumping in and out of combat and resting and so on. But again, this issue was always so minor that anyone that would take to use this as an actual tactic is the same kind of person that'll be liable to just turn on Godmode with the Console, and I don't think they've considered removing that (and if they have, they shouldn't, because it's stupid).

 

In the ol' IE games, I didn't even know you could do that, nevermind use it as a tactic, but I do remember those few times I had to legitimately flee. Not realizing that it could be abused, it actually left me in a worse situation than before, because when I came back to the scene with the combat, they had repositioned and I could forget all about getting into position or do an organized pull, it was on.

 

Both the "Combat Only"-restrictions and the "No Area Transition in Combat" really just feels wrong, and if I understood the purpose of the beta right, that's the things they actually want feedback on, bug-hunting being secondary at best. I really can't describe it better than that it feels like I'm fighting the system, like it's engineered difficulty, contrived and artificial, like I'm trying to do something perfectly reasonable, and the game just says no, for no readily apparent reason, because **** me, right?

 

It's.. gah. Gnaah!

[Sensuki]

Pretty much. It's a downside of the design philosophy that "the designer is at fault if exploits exist in the game", and painstakingly trying to eradicate all of the common Infinity Engine exploits. There's a few things they've done that are completely over the top / completely unnecessary and preventing transitions during combat is one of them.

 

Limiting some hostile ability use is more a quick fix/oversight of the actual problems in the game relative to the use of those abilities. One can easily at a glance go "Charm is overpowered, let's make it require the combat state to be active so that players can't initiate with it", but that's not actually understanding the problem of why it is overpowered. It's not that the player can open with the spell, it's what happens after the spell is cast, why it happens and thinking about ways to fix them - and those problems are not just limited to one ability but general issues with the gameplay.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Sensuki

[Cubiq]

FFS

I expected **** like this but wow.... they are actually 100% set on this path.

I now regret nothing.

[Sensuki]

Finally got your refund did you?

[Cubiq]

Yeah,  only out of their kindness though.

Beta still works but I'm not even going to bother with it anymore.

[PrimeJunta]

Pretty much. It's a downside of the design philosophy that "the designer is at fault if exploits exist in the game", and painstakingly trying to eradicate all of the common Infinity Engine exploits. There's a few things they've done that are completely over the top / completely unnecessary and preventing transitions during combat is one of them.

I'm not sure it isn't just because it makes things easier. No need to account for possibly knocked-out party members for example, or decide whether baddies can chase you, and if so, program that as well, and if not, decide to which state they return when you get back to the map (e.g. it would be kind of dumb if they were frozen in time exactly like you left them, or if the encounter was restored to exactly what it was before the fight).

[Sensuki]

Yeah that's likely another scenario, although it's just one of the many shortcuts they've taken that make the game that little bit more frustrating to play.

[archangel979]

Yeah that's likely another scenario, although it's just one of the many shortcuts they've taken that make the game that little bit more frustrating to play.

And make it not a worthy successor to BG games.

[NegativeEdge]

@Cubiq why did you ask for a refund?

[Gfted1]

Wait, there's a god mode available via console? I have a strong suspicion that the combat is going to stink (for me) and it may be prudent to have a method of bypassing it so I can at least enjoy the story and stronghold portions. I will need detailed instructions on how to activate this, please.

[Luckmann]

Wait, there's a god mode available via console? I have a strong suspicion that the combat is going to stink (for me) and it may be prudent to have a method of bypassing it so I can at least enjoy the story and stronghold portions. I will need detailed instructions on how to activate this, please.

 

AFAIK, no, there's no God Mode that you can activate via console (yet). My comment was meant in general, not specifically for PoE "as-is". As in, the ones likely to abuse the hell out of Area Transition in Combat are the same that will probably just cheat through the game anyway, via console, but yet the console isn't considered an exploit that they necessarily stomp down on.

[Sensuki]

You used to be able to access the console commands, but they removed access to them in the patch after I started summoning items that weren't in the beta and posting pictures of them on the forum. They have also since asked people not to post any non-beta stuff on the internet at all. That was the main reason anyway.

Fortunately, Bester's mod unlocks them again Very handy for quickly testing things (worth it even just for allowing skipping the Obsidian intro).

 

[Luckmann]

You used to be able to access the console commands, but they removed access to them in the patch after I started summoning items that weren't in the beta and posting pictures of them on the forum. They have also since asked people not to post any non-beta stuff on the internet at all. That was the main reason anyway.

 

Fortunately, Bester's mod unlocks them again Very handy for quickly testing things (worth it even just for allowing skipping the Obsidian intro).

 

I actually have a lot more understanding for that as a way to curtail the flow of spoilers and whatnot, unfinished as the game still is and so on, than I do for "Combat Only"-abilities, the current Engagement system's ability to completely lock down combat, the silly everyone-or-no-one Stealth system, or Area Transition limitations.

 

Come to think of it, there's a strong pattern of limitation emerging, which is worrysome.

[Sensuki]

How much do you know about the Lead Designer?