PoE - A game for Road Runner only? "Pausable Real Time Combat"

[IndiraLightfoot]

Meep, meep, peeps!

 

 

I was taken aback when I saw this getting flaunted in big letters: "Pausable Real Time Combat".

It was advertised early on, at 0:34, as a big selling point in the latest trailer for PoE.

 

 

Add to this that the Obsidz seem to be completely satisfied with the super-human combat speed on all enemies (except some wolves, beetles and ghosts). They report that combat felt great. It was a blast. The QA is happy.

 

What I don't get is this:

Even the best and most experienced BB players, pause a lot, since, obviously, baddies move extremely fast even within a few micro-seconds.

Still, Obsidian, uses "real time combat" as a big selling point, which it simply can't be described as, not seriously, anyways.

Also, as someone that rarely paused in NWN2 (It's fast, but enemies stand stillish a bit via invisible rounds) and not very often in the BG series, I can tell you it is a nightmare to try this even on Easy difficulty currently.

 

This is in fact a pause-based game with real-time forwarding.

 

I wish for some seriously convincing feedback on this.

 

EDIT: Just a reminder to all, including Obsidian - This is a party-based CRPG with loads of abilities. Imagine a party with all druids and priests.

Edited November 13, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Karkarov]

Well let's be fair.  It is real time with pause.  That said on any fight that requires any level of planning or execution I pause so often it might as well be turned based.  Combat is too "fast" right now, actions in general needed to be slowed down maybe 20%.  It is definitely playable without pausing on easy difficulty, but even then on tough fights you will need it.  I am not concerned too much for a number of reasons though.

 

1: I did pause a lot in IE games (save neverwinters) in any fight that did require some strategy or tactics.  Maybe not as much as Eternity, but not much less.

2: They still have plenty of time to make adjustments and slow things down a little.

 

I am concerned because Obsidian seems to listen to their QA very heavily while not listening as much to the backers.... AKA: the people who would be buying their game if it weren't a kickstarter.  This bothers me because in all fairness Obsidian QA does not have a good track record, and no one can deny that.  I just sincerely hope they have stepped up their game and it isn't staffed only by people for whom games have become purely a job and not something they enjoy anymore.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Karkarov

[IndiraLightfoot]

I think Josh said that recovery times should be made to take longer across the board, so that would help.

20% of supersonic speed is still pretty fast. This would be a perfect thing to test on the beta backers.

I'd love to test it at 50% speed, just to have some exaggerated benchmark.

 

Perhaps lower some weird damage spikes (still mostly poison and bleed effects over time, no?) that make some of your party members go bye-bye in a couple of seconds even on easy?

Of course, you could raise the DT of the player characters as well, which would give you time to react more and better, I suppose.

 

EDIT 2: I urge anyone who can use a hack in the game to make a party of all priests, and then use that party in a RPG-y way, using various abilities and different combos, all in real time (with next to no pausing). Good luck!

Edited November 13, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[archangel979]

I don't have access to PoE beta but I been playing IWDEE and in tough fights (like those in expansion content) I would pause every two seconds as well. But that was lvl 10+ content so it might be expected although I had to pause much more than in BG2 lvl 10+ content.

 

My guess would be it comes down to how lethal combat is. In those fights it was very lethal and my choices changed from round to round and sometimes I needed to choose to use a potion of extra healing during a round or change to new target.

 

My point is that needing to pause a lot in PoE might be coming from super lethal combat as much as everyone being too fast. BG had much easier combat where you could easily get away by selecting everyone and focus firing on one target and then on next. Only some battles needed finer control.

 

Combat more similar to IWD was one of the goals of PoE from KS. I would suggest people that have not played IWD or didn't play it in a long time to go play it now and not only base their expectations of PoE on BG games.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

1: I did pause a lot in IE games (save neverwinters) in any fight that did require some strategy or tactics.  Maybe not as much as Eternity, but not much less.

2: They still have plenty of time to make adjustments and slow things down a little.

 

I am concerned because Obsidian seems to listen to their QA very heavily while not listening as much to the backers.... AKA: the people who would be buying their game if it weren't a kickstarter.  This bothers me because in all fairness Obsidian QA does not have a good track record, and no one can deny that.  I just sincerely hope they have stepped up their game and it isn't staffed only by people for whom games have become purely a job and not something they enjoy anymore.

 

I was typing for some time to add to this, but you've really said it all for me. Quoted for truth, as the vernacular goes.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Recently (this year), I've played IWD2 and BG:EE, and I only paused now and then (I am an old D&D fanatic, though - and I have played these games a lot in bygone years). Many fights (trash mobs) I needn't pause at all for the most part.

 

Playing PoE, I can hear someone screaming behind some wonky tree: "Run, Forrest, run!!"

[Kjaamor]

1: I did pause a lot in IE games (save neverwinters) in any fight that did require some strategy or tactics.  Maybe not as much as Eternity, but not much less.

2: They still have plenty of time to make adjustments and slow things down a little.

 

I am concerned because Obsidian seems to listen to their QA very heavily while not listening as much to the backers.... AKA: the people who would be buying their game if it weren't a kickstarter.  This bothers me because in all fairness Obsidian QA does not have a good track record, and no one can deny that.  I just sincerely hope they have stepped up their game and it isn't staffed only by people for whom games have become purely a job and not something they enjoy anymore.

 

Personally, and perhaps this is why I find PoE comparatively easy compared to a great many of the other backers, I used to pause in the IE games pretty much whenever I was going to give a command, and often to review the situation and give a command, whereupon finding out everything was fine, I would unpause without even issuing one!

 

On the second part of your point, I know QA has its issues, but it must surely be better than the garbled mess of ideas bubbling out of the Backer stew. Right now there are very few issues we agree on, and to add to that many people disagree louder than others.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Just to give you a fair representation of how combat feels right now, when controlling merely one of your party-members and getting bum-rushed by a number of eager enemies, I present the following as a comparable intense feeling:

 

To think, you could get this much action in an isometric CRPG hearkening back to the IE classics. I am speechless.

Edited November 13, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I think you're being a bit dramatic IndiraLightfoot. I can't say that I feel overwhelmed by combat, particularly since v301. I did pause a great deal in the IE games, much in the way Kjaamor describes, so that may be part of it. Have you tried the slow-motion option?

[IndiraLightfoot]

As of yet, no. I wanted to get a feel for the game in normal mode before trying something I have never seen or used in any previous CRPG. However, if this kind of zippy combat persists, I most likely will.

[Zansatsu]

I paused a lot in the IE games. Every spell cast and usually every time an enemy went down because i would decide where best to send my characters next. Also the beginning of every fight to issue the beginning tactics. Soooo a lot. I haven't played the beta, so can't really evaluate my feelings on it's difficulty but, as far as commenting on pausing, I see myself playing exactly the same way.

[Gfted1]

Imo, "pausing" is not necessarily only tied to the mook speed (which is silly fast) but also the desynchronized rounds. With 6 party member each on their own individual "round" timers, I pause almost every second to make sure everyone is performing some action. Many times I would lose track of someone in the dogpile and they would just be standing there doing nothing, until I employed the all powerful "clog the door and autoattack to victory" strategy.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Gfted1: Very important point - each guy in your party is having her/his own action round, and even worse, it's not a regular beat, it's regulated by which action he/she takes and if it is interrupted.

 

EDIT: No matter how good the UI feedback is on those ever-changing and not-the-same-between-party-members desync-rounds, it will always be a mess. It's no way to fix that. Sorry. Personally, I would imagine an easy enforced pseudo-round system that gets clearly displayed before the player in some neat UI, and which all attacks, spells, and defences base themselves on is the single most important change this game needs right now.

 

Sigh. I fear, PoE combat will be much more varied and fun party-based-wise and tactics-wise if we indeed turn on the slomo mode. After the next BB patch, I will try it and get back on how it felt.

Edited November 13, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[constantine]

Imo, "pausing" is not necessarily only tied to the mook speed (which is silly fast) but also the desynchronized rounds. With 6 party member each on their own individual "round" timers, I pause almost every second to make sure everyone is performing some action. Many times I would lose track of someone in the dogpile and they would just be standing there doing nothing, until I employed the all powerful "clog the door and autoattack to victory" strategy.

THAT!

[Karkarov]

Personally, and perhaps this is why I find PoE comparatively easy compared to a great many of the other backers, I used to pause in the IE games pretty much whenever I was going to give a command, and often to review the situation and give a command, whereupon finding out everything was fine, I would unpause without even issuing one!

 

On the second part of your point, I know QA has its issues, but it must surely be better than the garbled mess of ideas bubbling out of the Backer stew. Right now there are very few issues we agree on, and to add to that many people disagree louder than others.

While that is a fair point Kjaamor there are some key issues the most vocal people all agree on.  The majority of us feel combat is too fast.  Most of us feel fairly iffy on stats/skills and feel it needs some changes, maybe we don't agree on what those changes should be, but we agree they should happen.  Most of us agree Wizards Suck.

 

These are the issues Obsidian should focus on, it is easy to see when most backers all agree that there is "something" off about a given feature.  They should be able to see the big problems we all agree are problems.

[wanderon]

Then again I'm not sure "most vocal" necessarily means their ideas or complaints are any more or less relevant than others - people should probably try to keep in mind this isn't OEs first rodeo and just because people have ideas of how to fix things that doesn't automatically put them on the same page as OE.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Alright, I just got to watch Josh's stream with Jesse Cox - a guy who's never played PoE before.

 

http://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/b/588477048

 

At 16:20 into the game, two wolves approaches his flamehead guy and Calisca, or should say rush at them at super-canine speed.

Jesse panics (a natural reaction), and he doesn't pause, and they are about to chew those two up, when Josh hollers "Pause! Pause! Remember your IE training?" or something like that.

 

Jesse is a pretty seasoned gamer. Don't you think? And he was caught off-guard by this spooky speed, and Josh behaviour certainly lends weight to PoE BB being what Sharp_one just described as "pause with real time".

 

Something needs to be done about this. Imagine how many noobs or noobish players who'll play the game and simply get fed up with it in the first hour, or perhaps they will pause like crazy, or pick "slomo".

 

Also, at 24:40:

When his Flamehead char goes down, and Calisca once again saves the day, watching that, I realized another speed aspect that is simply too fast in PoE right now:

The hit animations!

They twitch - they are super-fast, like that Matrix vid I just posted earlier. They need to slow down the attack animations, literally, and have that as a factor in the combat system.

 

At 50:10:

Jesse in combat:

"Can I run, or?"

Josh: "No." (Due to disengagement attacks)

Jesse: "So, just shield up and pray?"

Edited November 14, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Seari]

"Can I run, or?"

Josh: "No." (Due to disengagement attacks)

Jesse: "So, just shield up and pray?"

[archangel979]

It was more than once that Josh told Jesse to not move away. This game is going to be crappy for new players and they are going to be dying to disengagement all the time and not even understand why...

[Kjaamor]

While that is a fair point Kjaamor there are some key issues the most vocal people all agree on.  The majority of us feel combat is too fast.  Most of us feel fairly iffy on stats/skills and feel it needs some changes, maybe we don't agree on what those changes should be, but we agree they should happen.  Most of us agree Wizards Suck.

 

These are the issues Obsidian should focus on, it is easy to see when most backers all agree that there is "something" off about a given feature.  They should be able to see the big problems we all agree are problems.

 

Like Wanderon said, the opinions of the most vocal people are worth no more than the least vocal. Also the stat system is, to me, a classic example of a community going mad about something that didn't really matter and studying it in-depth and creating a replacement which when implemented turns out to be just as bad as the first system. Personally, although I think the skill system needs some work, I'd hate to have to go through attribute redesign a third time.

 

And I know it's a sore point for many people but we on the forums were told that wizards were going to suck from fairly early on in proceedings. People shouldn't be getting surprised about that now.

 

Tldnr: Backers suck and should be ignored.

[Seari]

 This game is going to be crappy for everyone

[Shevek]

I do not pause much. I just pause to switch targets for the most part. In fact, I pause about as much as I pause for the IE games. Also, combat speed is fine. Combat in general is fine. I outline this in the combat vid I posted.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Shevek

[Seari]

Just because you said it, doesn't make it so.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I'd rather tally that up to Seari just giving us a wink of where he stands on the issue.

[Seari]