About the Talent/Skill Merger...

[Namutree]

 

I still remember what Tim Cain said:

• Non-combat skills are gained separately from combat skills. You shouldn't have to choose between Magic Missile and Herbalism. They should be separate types of abilities, and you should spend different points to get each one.

I was half convinced of the new system, but yeah. Thanks for reminding me of this quote, I think they should really stick to that.

 

Idea:

Take the old system, but base the amount of points you have to invest in order to improve a skill on the weighted average of the skills. The further the skills are apart, the more you need to spend.

 

This discourages min-maxing at least, though I don't know if it's too complex for players to get behind.

 

Too complex. The best solution is to go back to the old system, and make some skill-checks require more than 1 skill.

[Osvir]

I like it, scroll-list, it may have to be improved upon in terms of a bit of clarity though, or showing more skills at a time in the scroll-list.

That's the main downside I see with it, is that there is a limited amount of skills, visually in-screen/border, so looking through all of them gives me the impression of taking too much time. I wonder if it would be possible to expand the skill window or decrease the font size and include more skills to click through at a time checking them all out, scrolling up and down and comparing different skills between each other.

I guess that's what I find most infuriating with it, it's not "easy" to compare the Skills with each other.

I absolutely love the clarity in the attributes screen, what attributes are best for the class, it makes it easier to comprehend what the class is good at, and then I can choose to build a character according to the "recommended" attributes or choose to build something else.

The below goes semi-off-topic (relatable to the Skill list as well as character creation altogether)

Attachments:
chargen1.png illustrates how the Skill system is currently working (very simplistic)
chargen2.png illustrates how the system could work (very simplistic)

The idea is simple, whenever you "click" on a button, the description window would appear in the middle. I.E. Highlighting the choice and explaining it. Not just hovering the mouse-pointer over as that could be too much "tooltip" and "floaty" annoyance.

Click -> Description Box On -> Modify values -> Click -> Description Box Off

or

Modify values (won't prompt a description box)

If Obsidian would do this, they could also combine various elements in the Character Creator (such as the appearance screens, they could become 1 single screen where you can pick Portrait, Colors and potentially Voice). The weakest part of the Character Creator at the moment is the amount of clicking back and forth you have to do, in my opinion, ESPECIALLY in the Portrait and Color section (if you want the character to resemble the portrait whatsoever). This is unnecessary back and forth clicking.

Combining the different screens to the best extent I believe would make the whole of the Character Creation much easier to manage, and easier to go through it (In Wasteland 2 there's only 2 screens, in Pillars of Eternity there's like... 6 or 7 screens).

Edited October 29, 2014 by Osvir

[jediwolf]

No, I preferred the old system of buying Skills separately from Talents.

[mrmonocle]

I like the new system, dunno who invented it, but looks great. Now give better level up gui.

[Shevek]

Forcing me to consider being a gun user to be able to pick locks is ludicrous. They need completely separate talent and skill selection.

 

Edit:

One thing that may work better (but still suck) is the reverse: skill requirements for talents. So, if you want a dual wield talent, you need x skill in athletics. If you want a gun talent, you may need some skill in mechanics. This isn't as limiting (so long as requirements are kept low) and makes much more sense. I would add that there should still be way way more skills. This would still suck however - it would totally go against their idea of skills and combat stuff being in different pools.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Shevek

[constantine]

I like the new system, great work, ties the skills/talents in a 'natural' flow.

 

In general I m a fan of anything that leans toward the role-playing factor & (in a way) discourages min-maxing.

[Karkarov]

I think it is time I lay this out clearly since people obviously don't "get it" based on the current votes.  Just to make it clear how bad the current implementation of the skills system is I just made a rouge and went through the trouble of listing every single Talent they can take that gives something other than Athletics as it's skill reward.  I will list what the Talent does, what Skill it gives, and how much of that Skill it awards.  Bear in mind if you see a Talent that gives say 1 Survival and nothing else that is because the other Skill it gives is Athletics and Athletics doesn't matter. 

 

Why doesn't Athletics matter?  Because out of 46 total skills a Rogue can pick (by the way Rogue's only get 1 Skill Fighters don't) 28 of them give Athletics, that's right, roughly 61% of skills gives Athletics.  So trust me, you can build any kind of Rogue you want and odds are good you can and will fit Athletics in there somewhere.  I would also add that there are only 24 Talents that gives Skills that aren't "just Athletics" and even some of those still give +1 Athletics like I already mentioned.  That's right.  There are more Talents that give Athletics than there are all other Talents combined.

 

Why make this point using a Rogue?  Because Rogues are supposed to be the "Skill" character based on most peoples expectations.  So without further ado, here is the list of every skill you can pick as a Rogue that will award something that isn't Athletics.

 

-----

 

Snake's Reflexes - Gives bonus Reflex Defense - 1 Stealth
Bear's Fortitude - Gives bonus Fortitude Defense - 1 Survival
Bull's Will - Gives bonus Will Defense - 2 Lore
Cautious Attack - + Deflection but lowers Attack Speed - 1 Survival
Envenomed Strike - damage over time on attack - 1 Survival 1 Stealth  *
Deep Pockets - Gain 2 extra Quick Slots - 2 Survival
Gunner - Reload speeds are faster - 2 Mechanics  *
Dangerous Implements - Wands and such do more damage but user takes damage too - 1 Lore
Graceful Retreat - Grants bonus defense against Disengagement Attacks - 1 Stealth  *
Scion of Flame - Increases Burn Damage Threshold and and Damage - 1 Survival 1 Lore
Heart of the Storm - Increases Shock Damage Threshold and and Damage - 1 Survival 1 Lore
Spirit of Decay - Increases Corrode Damage Threshold and and Damage - 1 Survival 1 Lore
Secrets of Rime - Increases Freeze Damage Threshold and and Damage - 1 Survival 1 Lore
Backstab - + Melee damage from Invisibility - 2 Stealth  *
Potent Potions - All potions have longer Duration and Heal more damage - 2 Survival
Accurate Traps - Traps are more Accurate - 2 Mechanics
Powerful Traps - Traps do more Damage and have longer Duration - 2 Mechanics
Quick Switch - Reduced Recovery Time when switching weapons/spells - 1 Lore
Lore Keeper - Gives more Lore - 4 Lore
Expert Mechanic - Gives more Mechanics - 4 Mechanics  *
Stealthy Scout - Gives more Stealth - 4 Stealth  *
Expert Survivalist -  Gives more Survival - 4 Survival
Wound Binding - Allows for a "modest" amount of Health Healing on Self - 2 Survival
Field Triage - Allows for a "modest" amount of Health Healing on Others - 2 Survival

 

-----

 

I put Asterisks beside the Talents I would ever actually consider taking just for reference.  Bear in mind I would obviously only take Gunner if I was a ranged Rogue, or Backstab (the one Rogue unique skill) if I was a melee Rogue.  So I would never even take all the Asterisk marked skills on one character because they don't work well together.  Meanwhile you will notice Talents like Two Weapon Fighting, Savage Attack, Penetrating Shot, Bloody Slaughter, Weapon Focus, etc etc are all missing because they only award Athletics.  In fact just to get my jollies I will let you know that if you decide to make a "Master of the Bow" character there is only one Talent you will even consider that doesn't just give +2 Athletics and that's Gunner.  God Lore is even worse off if you look at this list, I sure hope casters get a ton of Talents we aren't seeing listed here .

 

Obsidian said they didn't want us to make "Skill" characters who were only good outside of combat that we dragged around for picking locks and removing traps.  However that is exactly what this skill system change did, it created Skill characters who are sub optimal in actual combat and emphasized Skill use over actual ability in battle.

 

EDIT: Oh in defense of the system I did forget as you level up there is a couple more skills that become available to Rogues that are good and give stealth.  Of course they are Rogue only and 1 of them still manages to give +1 Athletics.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Karkarov

[wanderon]

I built a rogue the other day and had no problem getting mechanics up immediately but then struggled a little getting stealth caught up but not much - the skill only talents with +4 give a good starting base. 

 

I also found myself having to choose a talent for each of the non-rogue BB Bozos that would give some stealth and so far have settled on envenomed strike which should be useful to anyone at some time or other.

 

I still think this system will work but I'd like to see some tweaking and very much like to see at least a handful of points available on their own as part of character creation and maybe a few more along the way every few levels. After all this current character only ended up having a decent skill set almost immediately because he essentially starts at level 5 in the Beta.

[Karkarov]

I built a rogue the other day and had no problem getting mechanics up immediately but then struggled a little getting stealth caught up but not much - the skill only talents with +4 give a good starting base.

Sure, but you had to choose to do one of three things to do that.

 

1: Make them a ranged Rogue, which actually runs counter to a lot of the best Rogue talents.

2: Make them a hard core trap user, which I guess I can see it but I don't enjoy using traps so not an option for me.

3: You gave up a Talent that could have given you a real combat buff (like Weapon Focus, Bloody Slaughter, or Backstab) to pick a straight + tons of Mechanics Talent.

 

Edit: In retrospect it actually makes a ton more sense to make your Ranger a Mechanics expert over your Rogue as Rangers are great with ranged weapons, have a long history with traps, etc etc.  Not sure they get free points in Mechanics just for being a Ranger though unlike Rogue.

 

Also but seriously, having to pick Envenomed Strike just to get every character some stealth (while a good Talent) seems pretty darn lame.  We shouldn't be shoehorned into taking it because it is the only way to get a character Stealth Skill without gimping them.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Karkarov

[Sensuki]

I actually think 90% of the talents are pretty awful overall. I would never pick hardly any of them.

[Karkarov]

I actually think 90% of the talents are pretty awful overall. I would never pick hardly any of them.

Fair enough, but most of them I would pick give Athletics.

[Sensuki]

Same

[Fiebras]

I think the merger is fine, but agree with Sensuki that many of them I would never pick over the class ones and the ones that increase DPS.

I also think this is because they force us to choose between making a class better at what it does and making it better for skill-checks or DPS by giving us just one point to spend on such things every two levels.

I dont think we will have a way to pass the high skill checks without gimping our characters, or at least thats the impression I have when leveling up.

 

I feels like we should have a separate screen or an additional skill/trait point to spend so we can pick one trait which enhances the class and one whick makes it better at skill-check stuff.

Athletics being so important, it makes sense that the class skills give it to you but then I question the purpose of the skill/mechanic altogether for several reasons.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Fiebras

[prodigydancer]

I still remember what Tim Cain said:

• Non-combat skills are gained separately from combat skills. You shouldn't have to choose between Magic Missile and Herbalism. They should be separate types of abilities, and you should spend different points to get each one. 

And this makes perfect sense.

 

The new system is a huge disappointment. If they'll force me to buy combat and non-combat skills with the same points pool, I'll take combat skills any day of the week. Unless, of course, there are no combat skills worth taking.

Edited November 2, 2014 by prodigydancer

[wanderon]

 

I built a rogue the other day and had no problem getting mechanics up immediately but then struggled a little getting stealth caught up but not much - the skill only talents with +4 give a good starting base.

Sure, but you had to choose to do one of three things to do that.

 

1: Make them a ranged Rogue, which actually runs counter to a lot of the best Rogue talents.

2: Make them a hard core trap user, which I guess I can see it but I don't enjoy using traps so not an option for me.

3: You gave up a Talent that could have given you a real combat buff (like Weapon Focus, Bloody Slaughter, or Backstab) to pick a straight + tons of Mechanics Talent.

 

Edit: In retrospect it actually makes a ton more sense to make your Ranger a Mechanics expert over your Rogue as Rangers are great with ranged weapons, have a long history with traps, etc etc.  Not sure they get free points in Mechanics just for being a Ranger though unlike Rogue.

 

Also but seriously, having to pick Envenomed Strike just to get every character some stealth (while a good Talent) seems pretty darn lame.  We shouldn't be shoehorned into taking it because it is the only way to get a character Stealth Skill without gimping them.

 

 

Making choices in an RPG is not necessarily a bad thing - I do in fact play ranged rogues quite a bit and even when I play melee rogues they always do some ranged work as well. And I have stopped playing any rangers until they get them a bit more sorted out

 

All I'm saying is there are ways you can use this system to build a decent character but it really sucks that you can ONLY get skills with talents - so for me putting the two together is OK but ONLY if you give us some additional skill only points to spend both at Character creation and also ever few levels along the way - I have a feeling this may be what they have in mind anyway and they are tweaking the skill menu as we speak...

 

If so that would mean you can set your skills as you like and then choose to either augment them with talent choices as well or not as you see fit. That would work for me.

[Shevek]

This system pigeonholes you into picking certain talents to ensure you make skill checks with certain characters. That is not good design. The combat talents should be balanced on their own and people should select them to design their character so they can fight as they wish. I should not be thinking, "man, I really want my rogue to pick up Y talent but I have to take that crappy X talent to get my guy to sneak around instead." Its so bad. I am amazed Sawyer greenlit this. They had the right idea when they stated that out of combat and combat progression would be separate. They need to return to those design principles.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Shevek

[Fiebras]

The next patch will probably bring improvements if not a completely new system since this was a "test out a new system and see" patch.

[Sensuki]

Next patch won't change a thing. It'll be mostly bug fixes.