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About the Talent/Skill Merger...

talents skills design mechanics lore survival athletics stealth

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Poll: The Talent/Skill Merger Poll (89 member(s) have cast votes)

Should Talents and Skills be Intertwined?

  1. Yes, I'm willing to give the new design a chance. (50 votes [56.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 56.18%

  2. No, I preferred the old system of buying Skills separately from Talents. (32 votes [35.96%])

    Percentage of vote: 35.96%

  3. No, and we need a system other than the previous one (please describe in thread). (7 votes [7.87%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.87%

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#41
bronzepoem

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I still remember what Tim Cain said:

  • Non-combat skills are gained separately from combat skills. You shouldn't have to choose between Magic Missile and Herbalism. They should be separate types of abilities, and you should spend different points to get each one. 

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#42
Caladian

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I like the overall concept and yes choosing the abilities felt more meaningful as in I wanted certain characters to have certain things.  That I really like a lot.  I also agree with sensuki that more of the rp options should be dual/triple skilled so that it is also advantageous to not mono-skill each party member.  At the same time, a careful look at the things that are stat effected, to make sure that they aren't too high.  Last time around there was a lockpick 10 somewhere in the temple area, getting lockpick 10 is nearly impossible at this stage.



#43
wanderon

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After some more usage of the new system I am already more comfortable with it but I still feel there should be at least a small pool of skill points that you get to choose directly at character creation (to set your skill "path") and then every so many levels another point or two (or three ;) ) and then you can use the ones tied to talents as a way to augment your skill levels.



#44
forgottenlor

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I agree with the thinking that if they only have a small amount of skills they should give a few skill points at the beginning and one every other level, so that each character can be competent, though not maxed out with one skill. I also support purely skill talents (like +3 mechanics) rather than a mix of skills and abilities. This would let one make a super skill character with only a few talents.



#45
PrimeHydra

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I still remember what Tim Cain said:

  • Non-combat skills are gained separately from combat skills. You shouldn't have to choose between Magic Missile and Herbalism. They should be separate types of abilities, and you should spend different points to get each one. 

 

Hmmm, I'd forgotten about that statement. The new system certainly seems to go against it! It may be a goal that looked good on paper but didn't play very well in practice. There just aren't enough non-combat skills--or enough reason to do anything other than max one per character--to justify a separate skill-buy system.


Edited by PrimeHydra, 27 October 2014 - 10:34 AM.


#46
Shevek

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Best way to fix this:

1. Remove skill points
2. Have each character pick a focus on creation. Their skill level with their skill focus will now be tied to character level (rather than have the player add points at every level up). They are an expert at that. All other characters should have get 1/2 the skill of an expert based on character level.
3. Dramatically increase (triple) the number skills focuses to ensure one party cant encompass them all.
4. Athleticism should be a derived stat based on con.
5. Make cerrtain professions/backgrounds give skill bonuses and penalties.

Edited by Shevek, 27 October 2014 - 01:59 PM.


#47
Seari

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^ Hell no.



#48
Shevek

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Worked for Star Wars Saga Edition (suggestion based loosely on that system)... Best pnp game ive played.

Edited by Shevek, 27 October 2014 - 02:01 PM.


#49
Namutree

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I still remember what Tim Cain said:

  • Non-combat skills are gained separately from combat skills. You shouldn't have to choose between Magic Missile and Herbalism. They should be separate types of abilities, and you should spend different points to get each one. 

 

Tim Cain also said there'd be kill-xp. OE doesn't listen to Tim Cain.


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#50
Fearabbit

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I still remember what Tim Cain said:

  • Non-combat skills are gained separately from combat skills. You shouldn't have to choose between Magic Missile and Herbalism. They should be separate types of abilities, and you should spend different points to get each one.

I was half convinced of the new system, but yeah. Thanks for reminding me of this quote, I think they should really stick to that.

Idea:
Take the old system, but base the amount of points you have to invest in order to improve a skill on the weighted average of the skills. The further the skills are apart, the more you need to spend.

This discourages min-maxing at least, though I don't know if it's too complex for players to get behind.

#51
Namutree

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I still remember what Tim Cain said:

  • Non-combat skills are gained separately from combat skills. You shouldn't have to choose between Magic Missile and Herbalism. They should be separate types of abilities, and you should spend different points to get each one.

I was half convinced of the new system, but yeah. Thanks for reminding me of this quote, I think they should really stick to that.

Idea:
Take the old system, but base the amount of points you have to invest in order to improve a skill on the weighted average of the skills. The further the skills are apart, the more you need to spend.

This discourages min-maxing at least, though I don't know if it's too complex for players to get behind.

 

Too complex. The best solution is to go back to the old system, and make some skill-checks require more than 1 skill.



#52
Osvir

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I like it, scroll-list, it may have to be improved upon in terms of a bit of clarity though, or showing more skills at a time in the scroll-list.

That's the main downside I see with it, is that there is a limited amount of skills, visually in-screen/border, so looking through all of them gives me the impression of taking too much time. I wonder if it would be possible to expand the skill window or decrease the font size and include more skills to click through at a time checking them all out, scrolling up and down and comparing different skills between each other.

I guess that's what I find most infuriating with it, it's not "easy" to compare the Skills with each other.

I absolutely love the clarity in the attributes screen, what attributes are best for the class, it makes it easier to comprehend what the class is good at, and then I can choose to build a character according to the "recommended" attributes or choose to build something else.

The below goes semi-off-topic (relatable to the Skill list as well as character creation altogether)

Attachments:
chargen1.png illustrates how the Skill system is currently working (very simplistic)
chargen2.png illustrates how the system could work (very simplistic)

The idea is simple, whenever you "click" on a button, the description window would appear in the middle. I.E. Highlighting the choice and explaining it. Not just hovering the mouse-pointer over as that could be too much "tooltip" and "floaty" annoyance.

Click -> Description Box On -> Modify values -> Click -> Description Box Off

or

Modify values (won't prompt a description box)

If Obsidian would do this, they could also combine various elements in the Character Creator (such as the appearance screens, they could become 1 single screen where you can pick Portrait, Colors and potentially Voice). The weakest part of the Character Creator at the moment is the amount of clicking back and forth you have to do, in my opinion, ESPECIALLY in the Portrait and Color section (if you want the character to resemble the portrait whatsoever). This is unnecessary back and forth clicking.

Combining the different screens to the best extent I believe would make the whole of the Character Creation much easier to manage, and easier to go through it (In Wasteland 2 there's only 2 screens, in Pillars of Eternity there's like... 6 or 7 screens).

Attached Files


Edited by Osvir, 29 October 2014 - 03:01 AM.

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#53
jediwolf

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No, I preferred the old system of buying Skills separately from Talents.



#54
mrmonocle

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I like the new system, dunno who invented it, but looks great. Now give better level up gui.



#55
Shevek

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Forcing me to consider being a gun user to be able to pick locks is ludicrous. They need completely separate talent and skill selection.

Edit:
One thing that may work better (but still suck) is the reverse: skill requirements for talents. So, if you want a dual wield talent, you need x skill in athletics. If you want a gun talent, you may need some skill in mechanics. This isn't as limiting (so long as requirements are kept low) and makes much more sense. I would add that there should still be way way more skills. This would still suck however - it would totally go against their idea of skills and combat stuff being in different pools.

Edited by Shevek, 01 November 2014 - 03:11 PM.


#56
constantine

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I like the new system, great work, ties the skills/talents in a 'natural' flow.

In general I m a fan of anything that leans toward the role-playing factor & (in a way) discourages min-maxing.

#57
Karkarov

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I think it is time I lay this out clearly since people obviously don't "get it" based on the current votes.  Just to make it clear how bad the current implementation of the skills system is I just made a rouge and went through the trouble of listing every single Talent they can take that gives something other than Athletics as it's skill reward.  I will list what the Talent does, what Skill it gives, and how much of that Skill it awards.  Bear in mind if you see a Talent that gives say 1 Survival and nothing else that is because the other Skill it gives is Athletics and Athletics doesn't matter. 

 

Why doesn't Athletics matter?  Because out of 46 total skills a Rogue can pick (by the way Rogue's only get 1 Skill Fighters don't) 28 of them give Athletics, that's right, roughly 61% of skills gives Athletics.  So trust me, you can build any kind of Rogue you want and odds are good you can and will fit Athletics in there somewhere.  I would also add that there are only 24 Talents that gives Skills that aren't "just Athletics" and even some of those still give +1 Athletics like I already mentioned.  That's right.  There are more Talents that give Athletics than there are all other Talents combined.

 

Why make this point using a Rogue?  Because Rogues are supposed to be the "Skill" character based on most peoples expectations.  So without further ado, here is the list of every skill you can pick as a Rogue that will award something that isn't Athletics.

 

-----

 

Snake's Reflexes - Gives bonus Reflex Defense - 1 Stealth
Bear's Fortitude - Gives bonus Fortitude Defense - 1 Survival
Bull's Will - Gives bonus Will Defense - 2 Lore
Cautious Attack - + Deflection but lowers Attack Speed - 1 Survival
Envenomed Strike - damage over time on attack - 1 Survival 1 Stealth  *
Deep Pockets - Gain 2 extra Quick Slots - 2 Survival
Gunner - Reload speeds are faster - 2 Mechanics  *
Dangerous Implements - Wands and such do more damage but user takes damage too - 1 Lore
Graceful Retreat - Grants bonus defense against Disengagement Attacks - 1 Stealth  *
Scion of Flame - Increases Burn Damage Threshold and and Damage - 1 Survival 1 Lore
Heart of the Storm - Increases Shock Damage Threshold and and Damage - 1 Survival 1 Lore
Spirit of Decay - Increases Corrode Damage Threshold and and Damage - 1 Survival 1 Lore
Secrets of Rime - Increases Freeze Damage Threshold and and Damage - 1 Survival 1 Lore
Backstab - + Melee damage from Invisibility - 2 Stealth  *
Potent Potions - All potions have longer Duration and Heal more damage - 2 Survival
Accurate Traps - Traps are more Accurate - 2 Mechanics
Powerful Traps - Traps do more Damage and have longer Duration - 2 Mechanics
Quick Switch - Reduced Recovery Time when switching weapons/spells - 1 Lore
Lore Keeper - Gives more Lore - 4 Lore
Expert Mechanic - Gives more Mechanics - 4 Mechanics  *
Stealthy Scout - Gives more Stealth - 4 Stealth  *
Expert Survivalist -  Gives more Survival - 4 Survival
Wound Binding - Allows for a "modest" amount of Health Healing on Self - 2 Survival
Field Triage - Allows for a "modest" amount of Health Healing on Others - 2 Survival

 

-----

 

I put Asterisks beside the Talents I would ever actually consider taking just for reference.  Bear in mind I would obviously only take Gunner if I was a ranged Rogue, or Backstab (the one Rogue unique skill) if I was a melee Rogue.  So I would never even take all the Asterisk marked skills on one character because they don't work well together.  Meanwhile you will notice Talents like Two Weapon Fighting, Savage Attack, Penetrating Shot, Bloody Slaughter, Weapon Focus, etc etc are all missing because they only award Athletics.  In fact just to get my jollies I will let you know that if you decide to make a "Master of the Bow" character there is only one Talent you will even consider that doesn't just give +2 Athletics and that's Gunner.  God Lore is even worse off if you look at this list, I sure hope casters get a ton of Talents we aren't seeing listed here :p.

 

Obsidian said they didn't want us to make "Skill" characters who were only good outside of combat that we dragged around for picking locks and removing traps.  However that is exactly what this skill system change did, it created Skill characters who are sub optimal in actual combat and emphasized Skill use over actual ability in battle.

 

EDIT: Oh in defense of the system I did forget as you level up there is a couple more skills that become available to Rogues that are good and give stealth.  Of course they are Rogue only and 1 of them still manages to give +1 Athletics.


Edited by Karkarov, 02 November 2014 - 05:05 AM.

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#58
wanderon

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I built a rogue the other day and had no problem getting mechanics up immediately but then struggled a little getting stealth caught up but not much - the skill only talents with +4 give a good starting base. 

 

I also found myself having to choose a talent for each of the non-rogue BB Bozos that would give some stealth and so far have settled on envenomed strike which should be useful to anyone at some time or other.

 

I still think this system will work but I'd like to see some tweaking and very much like to see at least a handful of points available on their own as part of character creation and maybe a few more along the way every few levels. After all this current character only ended up having a decent skill set almost immediately because he essentially starts at level 5 in the Beta.



#59
Karkarov

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I built a rogue the other day and had no problem getting mechanics up immediately but then struggled a little getting stealth caught up but not much - the skill only talents with +4 give a good starting base.

Sure, but you had to choose to do one of three things to do that.

 

1: Make them a ranged Rogue, which actually runs counter to a lot of the best Rogue talents.

2: Make them a hard core trap user, which I guess I can see it but I don't enjoy using traps so not an option for me.

3: You gave up a Talent that could have given you a real combat buff (like Weapon Focus, Bloody Slaughter, or Backstab) to pick a straight + tons of Mechanics Talent.

 

Edit: In retrospect it actually makes a ton more sense to make your Ranger a Mechanics expert over your Rogue as Rangers are great with ranged weapons, have a long history with traps, etc etc.  Not sure they get free points in Mechanics just for being a Ranger though unlike Rogue.

 

Also but seriously, having to pick Envenomed Strike just to get every character some stealth (while a good Talent) seems pretty darn lame.  We shouldn't be shoehorned into taking it because it is the only way to get a character Stealth Skill without gimping them.


Edited by Karkarov, 02 November 2014 - 01:15 PM.

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#60
Sensuki

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I actually think 90% of the talents are pretty awful overall. I would never pick hardly any of them.





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