Is Might a Dump Stat? Is Perception THE DPS stat?

[Fiebras]

So you got 22 Might. Thats +22% Damage AND Healing!

 

Thats awesome right? But...what does it matter if you cant actually hit anything?

 

The BB party all has 10 perception with the exception of the Wizard´s 12 and the Rogues 22. The BB Fighter has 22 Might.

 

 

 

 

And this is hitting a stationary target.

...Ok that stationary target was a priest and he was buffing himself with armor spells. So this log is a bit of an exageration.

 

BUT IS IT? I mean we are gonna be facing spellcasters and priests in our travels and those bonuses to deflection, DT and reflexes are gonna stack and get bigger with creatures too.

And you see how much damage the Rogue is doing. And she has just 9 might and is using a shortbow. 9 Might. Bonkers. 22 Perception + Reckless assault (+10 Rnaged Accuracy and x1.2 damage). Genius.

 

 

After trying out the new vanila PoE system a bit Im starting to think the +% bonuses and maluses should be doubled. +2% of 30 damage isnt significant when enemies have +200 hp. Neither is +15% of 30 damage. I dont know how damage values in the endgame are gonna be but I think that even with 200 damage atacks +15% of that isnt gonna really matter and the difference between 3 Might vs 20 Might is gonna be one autoattack.

 

Im no math guy but the one time I could see Might being more useful than Perception would be with DoTs since you hit more and most of those hits are guaranteed. For autoattacks you should go with Perception.

 

Considering you have things like INT that give you much needed Deflection and AOE, CON that makes you live longer and DEX that makes you attack faster, I would say the current "Dump Stats" are Might and Resolve.

 

Make a 22 Perception 3 Might Character. Max DEX. Try it.

[Captain Shrek]

wait a second. So perception no longer causes "interrupt" (read, stun lock)? Damn, I was secretly hoping to abuse that. 

[Matt516]

If you look at the math, Might is overwhelmingly better against low DEF characters while Accuracy is marginally better against high DEF characters. Can elaborate if need be, but I've posted charts and such about this before. If DEF is higher than Accuracy nearly all the time, then Might would indeed need to be buffed. I'm not convinced that's true though. Think we need more data on typical DEF values.

[Fiebras]

They changed around the atributes. Perception is your accuracy and + range to abilities stat.

 

@Matt: Yeah Ive seen your charts and math (good job btw).

I realize Might is better against low defense targets but from what ive seen of the current damage values a +20% damage bonus doesnt seem as significant as being able to crit regulary. And Im sure defenses will be higher and higher as the game goes on. If not natural then by priest spells and the like.

Im just going with my gut feeling based on what Im seeing. And what Im seeing is that being able to crit often seems better than just having more flat damage.

 

 

In other news I made a max PER and DEX Cipher with 3 Might. Used a Fine Hunting Bow (9000 cp to buy wow) as oposed to the BB Rogues Short Bow

 

While my grazes were doing 0.8 damage in contrast to the Rogue´s 1 damage, the Rogue was critting and hitting far more often thanks to Dirty Fighting and Reckless assault. Seems balanced as the Cipher has all those damage spells while the Rouge is limited to autoattacks and Deep Wounds DPS.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Fiebras

[Matt516]

Yeah I know. Point is that the marginal % DPS increase from 1 point in Perception (aka 1 Accuracy) is (in general) higher than the marginal % DPS increase from 1 point in Might when and only when the enemy's Deflection is higher than your Accuracy. Once your Accuracy gets above 5 greater than their Deflection, Might starts being worth more (a LOT more).

[Sensuki]

Accuracy values did get a bit of a nerf in the latest patch. You didn't compare the BB characters Might values either.

 

Might should still be better for DPS, especially when you start getting better items.

 

Higher per-point values of attributes would probably be a good thing though

[nipsen]

OMG! The stat system is BORKEN!!!11elevenses1!!!

[Matt516]

The thing is, the value of being able to crit more often can be quantified directly and compared to the value of a flat percentage damage increase. Armor makes this more complicated of course, and for armored targets it may well be that Accuracy is more valuable to increase. Need to run the numbers..

[Fiebras]

Yeah I know. Point is that the marginal % DPS increase from 1 point in Perception (aka 1 Accuracy) is (in general) higher than the marginal % DPS increase from 1 point in Might when and only when the enemy's Deflection is higher than your Accuracy. Once your Accuracy gets above 5 greater than their Deflection, Might starts being worth more (a LOT more).

So that means getting more Might is only worth it once you have decent Accuracy (be it from Perception, Class, Specialization, Abilities, Modals, Talents, Spells, etc). Correct me if Im wrong.

That would mean any + Accuracy spell and item would be pretty valuable for Might-focused Characters and + Might spells and items would be very valuable for Accuracy-Focused characters. So, you could argue building all your DPS characters with high Might and then getting items that increase accuracy would be the way to go for DPS characters as AFAIK there arent any + Might spells, items, talents and abilities as oposed to + Accuracy (There arent any +Perception items either afaik but that doesnt matter since you want Accuracy, not Perception specifically)

Ok fair enough. Might would indeed be better in that context. Metagaming. Still not sure how much Impact 20% more damage means when your average hit is like 20 and your crits are like 50. Would depend on the weapon granted, but then you gotta think of the weapon speed.

 

Side note: As expected everyone has around 30 accuracy while BB Rouge has like 60+ with Reckless assault on. Wowzers.

 

Accuracy values did get a bit of a nerf in the latest patch. You didn't compare the BB characters Might values either.

 

Might should still be better for DPS, especially when you start getting better items.

 

Higher per-point values of attributes would probably be a good thing though

 

BB Fighter has the highest might in the party. Unfortunately he never got a hit in. Shield Accuracy penalty does that.

But yeah, Im just going witn gut feelings here, which can be wrong, as oposed to hard science/math.

 

Agreed that % bonuses and maluses that atributes give should probably be bigger (though none of that "Bigger numbers! Awesome numbers!" thing).

Edited September 26, 2014 by Fiebras

[Matt516]

 

Yeah I know. Point is that the marginal % DPS increase from 1 point in Perception (aka 1 Accuracy) is (in general) higher than the marginal % DPS increase from 1 point in Might when and only when the enemy's Deflection is higher than your Accuracy. Once your Accuracy gets above 5 greater than their Deflection, Might starts being worth more (a LOT more).

So that means getting more Might is only worth it once you have decent Accuracy (be it from Perception, Class, Specialization, Abilities, Modals, Talents, Spells, etc). Correct me if Im wrong.

That would mean any + Accuracy spell and item would be pretty valuable for Might-focused Characters and + Might spells and items would be very valuable for Accuracy-Focused characters. So, you could argue building all your DPS characters with Might and then getting items that increase accuracy would be the way to go for DPS characters as AFAIK there arent any + Might spells, items, talents and abilities as oposed to + Accuracy (There arent any +Perception items either afaik but that doesnt matter since you want Accuracy, not Perception specifically)

Ok fair enough. Might would indeed be better in that context. Metagaming.

Side note: As expected everyone has around 30 accuracy while BB Rouge has like 60+ with Reckless assault on. Wowzers.

 

More or less. The marginal benefit from one stat is directly dependent on the value of the other one (or other two once you factor in Speed).

[Razsius]

You want to see something amazing Fiebras give BB Rogue the arbalest which I believe is spelled R-O-C-K-E-T L-A-U-N-C-H-E-R.  She'll be 1-2 shotting basically everything in the backer beta.  Personally, despite whatever math Matt comes up with it has become readily apparent that accuracy is king as it gives far more consistent damage.  Accuracy isn't just +to hit after all but it's also +to crit.  Grazes are generally your worst nightmare and since they fall into the 6-50 range it's rather easy to get them.  On the other hand critical strikes are your best friend but are hard to get.  Abilities like confident aim and dirty fighting make a noticeable difference in how well your Fighter and Rogue respectively do in combat.

 

I'd take consistency over the chance to do more damage every single time.  I think might only outperforms perception when accuracy is a non-factor.

[Cantousent]

I've always thought that hard numbers should be supported by practical experience. So I'll be shamelessly reading Matt's math assessment and testing it. <.<

[Lephys]

It sounds like the biggest problem in this reference seems to be imbalanced defense values for the enemies. If 10 Perception gives you, say, 20 Accuracy, (whatever the base Accuracy is in the new system, with no penalties from less-than-10 scores and no bonuses from greater-than-10 scores), and all the foes you come across have 20-or-more Deflection, then there's your problem right there. Fixing the stat is just going to be skewed if you make sure the stats account for everything by themselves, when you've also got the fully adjustable base Accuracy and/or creature defense ratings.

 

That being said, I do see the merit in lower numbers warranting higher per-point bonuses. Depending on the finalized typical defense ranges of foes, It may not be crazy to have Perception grant +2 Accuracy per point, and have Might grant closer to 5% damage per point.

 

It really depends on all the other factors, which are also all changeable. I just don't want to end up vying for a 20%-per-point Might bonus because all the weapons in the game happen to be doing below 13 damage, when we could just raise the damage, for example. 8P

 

Also, this may be a dumb question, but I can't remember all of the sudden: Does armor grant a defense (Deflection) bonus?

[Matt516]

 

I'd take consistency over the chance to do more damage every single time.  I think might only outperforms perception when accuracy is a non-factor.

 

Accuracy gives less consistent damage because its benefit is RNG based. Might gives you additional damage every single time. I think you might be misunderstanding how the systems work....

 

I'm not disputing your experiences (and those of others) with BB Rogue and Fighter, but I there's a whole lot more at play than just the fact that Rogue has high Perception and Fighter has high Might. Weapon types, attack speeds, etc. The only way to actually definitively say (experimentally) if Might or Perception gives more damage would be to make two completely identical characters, each wielding identical weapons, but one with high Might and one with High Perception. Have these characters attack the same enemy - and what you'll find is that the Might character will do better if that enemy has lower Deflection than their Accuracy, and the Perception character will do better if that enemy has higher Deflection than their base Accuracy (before the PER bonus). Or... you could just look at the maths of attack resolution and calculate which gives more damage.

[Matt516]

I've always thought that hard numbers should be supported by practical experience. So I'll be shamelessly reading Matt's math assessment and testing it. <.<

 

It hasn't been updated for the new system rebalanced around 10 as the average attribute value yet. I'll be making that update at some point, but I've been pretty busy lately. The general trends should still be the same though.

 

Also note that any single combat is going to have pretty large variance from the expected results because of the RNG. Only way to get reliable results would be to run hundreds (or at least tens) of tests.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Matt516

[Cantousent]

Ahh, it's the sin that dare not speak its name, but I used to play MMORGPs and when I talk about testing a theory, I mean *a lot* of hours.

[Fiebras]

You want to see something amazing Fiebras give BB Rogue the arbalest which I believe is spelled R-O-C-K-E-T L-A-U-N-C-H-E-R.  She'll be 1-2 shotting basically everything in the backer beta.  Personally, despite whatever math Matt comes up with it has become readily apparent that accuracy is king as it gives far more consistent damage.  Accuracy isn't just +to hit after all but it's also +to crit.  Grazes are generally your worst nightmare and since they fall into the 6-50 range it's rather easy to get them.  On the other hand critical strikes are your best friend but are hard to get.  Abilities like confident aim and dirty fighting make a noticeable difference in how well your Fighter and Rogue respectively do in combat.

 

I'd take consistency over the chance to do more damage every single time.  I think might only outperforms perception when accuracy is a non-factor.

Oh I always give her the Arbalest. Only you dont get it until you finish that particular fight and I always feel shes attacking too slow (killing strike and the hobble attack seem to get slowed down too as they seem to have the weapon´s speed).

Havent tested how fast she attacks now with an arbalest on the new atribute system.

Also Im wondering my previous point about it being best to have a Might-centric character and give him accuracy items.

If you have an Accuracy-based character and give him all the accuracy items and buffs, you could be criting every attack and that would make it much better than a Might-focused character with accuracy items. Especially when you have high speed, light armor and a powerful weapon. And carnage.

They cant kill you if theyre dead.

 

 

Accuracy gives less consistent damage because its benefit is RNG based.

 

Are you saying you dont believe in the Heart of the Cards^TM, Matt? RNG-fu is a skill in itself as any D&D player will tell you.

 

Also RNG-based DPS is just a matter of making the odds of what you want happening (hits and crits) more likely to happen. Hitting people is RNG based anyway with or without high Might. So it would be better to make the hits and crits happen more likely as oposed to just relying on high damage (which, again doesnt feel that high anyway atm in our current sample size).

 

Also note that any single combat is going to have pretty large variance from the expected results because of the RNG. Only way to get reliable results would be to run hundreds (or at least tens) of tests.

 

Theres only like 3 combats (4 if you count the druids in stormwall gorge as "priest-like") in the beta that have an enemy Priest to cast +defensive spells afaik. And if my experience with Medreth´s group is any indication, they wil be casting them more often. Also, Elder Lions and Stone Beetles have high defenses too (like 30-50+ deflection I think while your characters have mostly around 30).

 

Bear in mind im making logic leaps based on gut feeling and personal experience with rpg game enemy progression here:

Enemy Priests make enemies tougher---> They may be present in many human enemy parties and boss battles due to how useful they are and because they are the kind of class that you love to have on your side and dread to see on the other side (also many classes have defensive abilities already)---> The game will have many high defense enemy encounters because of that ----> Being able to punch through their defenses is gonna be better than having big damage

I rather like the idea of all my attacks hitting and criting often. Though all of these points of course depend on what kind of enemy we are facing as you say. In which case I would say I would personally rather not have most of my attacks become grazes against the high defense enemies as they will probably be the most challenging ones (also Wizards have loads of +self defense spells and Id rather they die as quickly as possible because Wizards).

[Azrael Ultima]

Enemy Priests make enemies tougher---> They may be present in many human enemy parties and boss battles due to how useful they are and because they are the kind of class that you love to have on your side and dread to see on the other side (also many classes have defensive abilities already)---> The game will have many high defense enemy encounters because of that ----> Being able to punch through their defenses is gonna be better than having big damage

Think of it like a game designer, not a strategist. Unlike the latter, a game designer wants you to be able to win the fight, and the stated goal was all builds viable.

 

So if priests are commonplace and make perception vastly better, something needs to be done about them.

[Karkarov]

Actually from having just booted up the new version for the first time to check out the stat changes I am going to have to post something I imagine will not be popular....

 

Change it back.

 

The new stats make no sense.  If I want to make a fighter who is a powerful tank character I can dump Might and Dex but I want to max out Intelligence?????  This makes no sense, and it is non intuitive.  Dex is now basically a joke stat you can just leave at 10 for everyone, only casters are going to see huge benefit.  Perception is now massively overpowered especially for ranged characters.  Intelligence is now must have for tanks where as before it was just reasonably useful.  Resolve is now a caster stat that no one else will really get a ton of use out of since interrupts were removed from Perception.

 

I had gripes with the old stat system, I patently dislike the new one.

[morhilane]

The new stats make no sense.  If I want to make a fighter who is a powerful tank character I can dump Might and Dex but I want to max out Intelligence?????  This makes no sense, and it is non intuitive.  

 

You haven't played a lots of MMOs, stupid Tank players don't live long...

[Karkarov]

 

The new stats make no sense.  If I want to make a fighter who is a powerful tank character I can dump Might and Dex but I want to max out Intelligence?????  This makes no sense, and it is non intuitive.

You haven't played a lots of MMOs, stupid Tank players don't live long...

I have played more mmo's than any other human being I have ever met.  Tanks who can't lift their sword shouldn't live long either but in Eternity Might is a completely unimportant stat for Tanks.  You can just leave it at 10 and ignore it, or even lower it to being below average.  Same with Dexterity.  In fact the only "physical" stat that matters is Constitution.  Tanking is a physical activity, you shouldn't be clumsy and physically weak and able to excel at it.  Yet that is exactly what Eternity implies.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Karkarov

[Fiebras]

Actually from having just booted up the new version for the first time to check out the stat changes I am going to have to post something I imagine will not be popular....

 

Change it back.

 

The new stats make no sense.  If I want to make a fighter who is a powerful tank character I can dump Might and Dex but I want to max out Intelligence?????  This makes no sense, and it is non intuitive.  Dex is now basically a joke stat you can just leave at 10 for everyone, only casters are going to see huge benefit.  Perception is now massively overpowered especially for ranged characters.  Intelligence is now must have for tanks where as before it was just reasonably useful.  Resolve is now a caster stat that no one else will really get a ton of use out of since interrupts were removed from Perception.

 

I had gripes with the old stat system, I patently dislike the new one.

The thing is Fighters, Barbarians, and Monks all have very good defensive abilities that already make them good Front Liners.

But with the INT change now you could have a high INT Chanter that can be a front liner while also benefiting from the AOE.

Barbarians benefit from the INT because of Carnage, yes but that was the case before.

Dex is very useful on everyone especially DPS classes.

The only Dump stats I see now are Resolve and Might but even that is arguable as Matt has said.

 

BTW Matt, Im not arguing that the system says Might means more DPS than Perception, Im arguing that because of the potential enemies in this "campaign" having high defenses stacking accuracy would be better in the long run. Its the diference between having a D&D campaign were you have a wide variety of enemies and having a D&D campaign were you will face many trolls. Obviously in the troll campaign you will value burn/fire damage more than in the other campaign. But we wil have to see just how high the enemy defenses get in this game before we can conclude with certainty wether Might, Dex, or Perception/Accuracy is better for DPS. Im gonna stick with Accuracy/Perception for now because I enjoy crits.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Fiebras

[Matt516]

(pretend I quoted Karkarov)

 

Perception isn't overpowered because Range boni are pretty much worthless. Resolve is a stat for anyone who wants their abilities to last longer, not just casters. Interrupt hasn't been removed, it just isn't affected by attributes anymore (though concentration still is). Dexterity isn't better at any one thing (doing damage, improving spells, etc) than any of the other attributes, but it helps you do EVERYTHING faster. Don't underestimate that. It also gives the exact same effective damage boost as Might does to auto attacks against an unarmored character, so there's that. Intelligence is a must-have for tanks. OK, got no problem with that personally but YMMV.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Matt516

[Azrael Ultima]

I have played more mmo's than any other human being I have ever met.  Tanks who can't lift their sword shouldn't live long either but in Eternity Might is a completely unimportant stat for Tanks.  You can just leave it at 10 and ignore it, or even lower it to being below average.  Same with Dexterity.  In fact the only "physical" stat that matters is Constitution.  Tanking is a physical activity, you shouldn't be clumsy and physically weak and able to excel at it.  Yet that is exactly what Eternity implies.

Might isn't strength. Also, swords aren't that heavy, usually ranging between 1-4kg including two-handers.

 

Well, real swords, not WarCraft and JRPG swords.

[Captain Shrek]

 

I have played more mmo's than any other human being I have ever met.  Tanks who can't lift their sword shouldn't live long either but in Eternity Might is a completely unimportant stat for Tanks.  You can just leave it at 10 and ignore it, or even lower it to being below average.  Same with Dexterity.  In fact the only "physical" stat that matters is Constitution.  Tanking is a physical activity, you shouldn't be clumsy and physically weak and able to excel at it.  Yet that is exactly what Eternity implies.

Might isn't strength. Also, swords aren't that heavy, usually ranging between 1-4kg including two-handers.

 

Well, real swords, not WarCraft and JRPG swords.

 

 

 

Swords aren't heavy, true. But have you ever tried to swing around a real one? I mean real ones that are not rapiers or modern fencing swords. They drain your stamina really really fast. Also, one to 2 kg swords are useless weapons against armour. They can penetrate armour, yes, but not deal any real bashing damage against enemies. 3 kg swords and above, those are really the weapons of battle. 

 

Not to mention warhammers, clubs, greatswords and shield bash damages are all controlled by might. 

Edited September 27, 2014 by Captain Shrek