Rolling attributes

[anameforobsidian]

I'd prefer it as a mod.  The temptation to spend a half year rolling an ubermensch is too strong.

[Matt516]

Never understood why people get concerned about how other people play a single player game to the point where threads about the "cheaters" and non-cheaters go on for pages 

 

Well that's why I had it in quotes, because it's not really cheating in a SP game... that doesn't mean the game should be designed with easily exploitable mechanics like stat rerolling though. There should be a clear line between playing the game by its rules and changing the rules to suit your own liking (even though there's nothing wrong with doing that). Which is why I would gladly support a mod that implemented BG style rolling for attributes, but not support it as a default game system.

[thelee]

Never understood why people get concerned about how other people play a single player game to the point where threads about the "cheaters" and non-cheaters go on for pages 

Its because it ends up having to do with how the game is built/designed. Theoretically, the game could just give everyone an omni-weapon at the start that kills everyone and people who want an enjoyable game could just not use it.

 

Except that's dumb.

 

Game design is about making choices for the player. Game design is about constraining what the player can do, and then letting the player have fun within those constraints.

 

Just because something doesn't affect another player (the "it's SP" reasonibg) does not make it a good basis for doing it anyway, because "not negatively affecting another player" does not form the basis for making a good game system.

[Marceror]

 

Never understood why people get concerned about how other people play a single player game to the point where threads about the "cheaters" and non-cheaters go on for pages 

Its because it ends up having to do with how the game is built/designed. Theoretically, the game could just give everyone an omni-weapon at the start that kills everyone and people who want an enjoyable game could just not use it.

 

Except that's dumb.

 

Game design is about making choices for the player. Game design is about constraining what the player can do, and then letting the player have fun within those constraints.

 

Just because something doesn't affect another player (the "it's SP" reasonibg) does not make it a good basis for doing it anyway, because "not negatively affecting another player" does not form the basis for making a good game system.

 

I don't recall the ability to roll attributes in the BG series or ToEE being anything remotely akin to an "omni-weapon... that kills everyone." Just saying.

[thelee]

 

 

Never understood why people get concerned about how other people play a single player game to the point where threads about the "cheaters" and non-cheaters go on for pages 

 

Its because it ends up having to do with how the game is built/designed. Theoretically, the game could just give everyone an omni-weapon at the start that kills everyone and people who want an enjoyable game could just not use it.

Except that's dumb.

Game design is about making choices for the player. Game design is about constraining what the player can do, and then letting the player have fun within those constraints.

Just because something doesn't affect another player (the "it's SP" reasonibg) does not make it a good basis for doing it anyway, because "not negatively affecting another player" does not form the basis for making a good game system.

I don't recall the ability to roll attributes in the BG series or ToEE being anything remotely akin to an "omni-weapon... that kills everyone." Just saying.

It's called metaphor.

[Marceror]

 

 

 

Never understood why people get concerned about how other people play a single player game to the point where threads about the "cheaters" and non-cheaters go on for pages 

Its because it ends up having to do with how the game is built/designed. Theoretically, the game could just give everyone an omni-weapon at the start that kills everyone and people who want an enjoyable game could just not use it.

Except that's dumb.

Game design is about making choices for the player. Game design is about constraining what the player can do, and then letting the player have fun within those constraints.

Just because something doesn't affect another player (the "it's SP" reasonibg) does not make it a good basis for doing it anyway, because "not negatively affecting another player" does not form the basis for making a good game system.

I don't recall the ability to roll attributes in the BG series or ToEE being anything remotely akin to an "omni-weapon... that kills everyone." Just saying.

It's called metaphor.

 

I get the metaphor. My issue is that it's not a valid metaphor.

 

A character with above average ability scores in Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale or Temple of Elemental Evil wasn't a "kill anything" overpowered character, like your "metaphor" suggests. They had some advantages that other more average characters didn't, sure, but they could still get their asses handed to them if the player wasn't playing smartly.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Marceror

[thelee]

My comment was not directed at the general idea of rolling but at the sentiment that because this is an SP game we should let anything fly.

[Marceror]

My comment was not directed at the general idea of rolling but at the sentiment that because this is an SP game we should let anything fly.

That's fine, and I generally thought that was where you were coming from.

 

That said, as the OP and someone who would like to see this option added (and who has utterly gotten his ass handed to him in that regard), I felt the need to call your metaphor into check insofar as it relates to the primary topic of this thread. If I'm going to go down, I at least want to go down with a shred of dignity.

[aeonsim]

 

 

 

 

Never understood why people get concerned about how other people play a single player game to the point where threads about the "cheaters" and non-cheaters go on for pages 

Its because it ends up having to do with how the game is built/designed. Theoretically, the game could just give everyone an omni-weapon at the start that kills everyone and people who want an enjoyable game could just not use it.

Except that's dumb.

Game design is about making choices for the player. Game design is about constraining what the player can do, and then letting the player have fun within those constraints.

Just because something doesn't affect another player (the "it's SP" reasonibg) does not make it a good basis for doing it anyway, because "not negatively affecting another player" does not form the basis for making a good game system.

I don't recall the ability to roll attributes in the BG series or ToEE being anything remotely akin to an "omni-weapon... that kills everyone." Just saying.

It's called metaphor.

 

I get the metaphor. My issue is that it's not a valid metaphor.

 

A character with above average ability scores in Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale or Temple of Elemental Evil wasn't a "kill anything" overpowered character, like your "metaphor" suggests. They had some advantages that other more average characters didn't, sure, but they could still get their asses handed to them if the player wasn't playing smartly.

 

True to a degree but at the same time a char with ~98 was a lot more versatile than one rolled in 70-80's being able to have 4 stats maxed one at ~16 and the last at ~10  (or all 5 if you were willing to dump one) gave you a lot more options and the MC or DC classes a pretty significant boost. A fighter/mage, thief/mage had top of the line spell casting + excellent physical stats allowing them to fight in the front line with few issues while laying waste with spells

 

While there is nothing wrong with that it simply makes the game a bit easier.

Edited September 15, 2014 by aeonsim

[gkathellar]

It was a staple part of the BG experience, but it's not one that should be replicated. Different era, different style of game.

[Messier-31]

Instead of rolling, maybe randomize?

[illathid]

I think the only way rolling could be included is if the max possible roll was equivalent (or maybe even lower than) to the points you get normally. That way there'd be no incentive to reroll endlessly.

 

Plus, all people in favor rolling are doing so because of the additional challenge and role play opportunities, right?

[gkathellar]

I think the only way rolling could be included is if the max possible roll was equivalent (or maybe even lower than) to the points you get normally. That way there'd be no incentive to reroll endlessly.

 

Plus, all people in favor rolling are doing so because of the additional challenge and role play opportunities, right?

 

In fairness, some people might want maxed out stats to fully explore dialogue trees.

 

Also, there was a "no-rerolls" challenge back on the old Bioware BG2 forums, where you made all six party members and took what the machine gave you. I never tried it, myself, but apparently around the midgame it could make Solo Tactics Ascension look like a cakewalk.

 

Not that either of these are really important, but it bears noting that rolling stats for roleplaying or for challenge is not strictly absurd.

[wanderon]

 

Never understood why people get concerned about how other people play a single player game to the point where threads about the "cheaters" and non-cheaters go on for pages 

 

Well that's why I had it in quotes, because it's not really cheating in a SP game... that doesn't mean the game should be designed with easily exploitable mechanics like stat rerolling though. There should be a clear line between playing the game by its rules and changing the rules to suit your own liking (even though there's nothing wrong with doing that). Which is why I would gladly support a mod that implemented BG style rolling for attributes, but not support it as a default game system.

 

 

 

 

Never understood why people get concerned about how other people play a single player game to the point where threads about the "cheaters" and non-cheaters go on for pages 

Its because it ends up having to do with how the game is built/designed. Theoretically, the game could just give everyone an omni-weapon at the start that kills everyone and people who want an enjoyable game could just not use it.

 

Except that's dumb.

 

Game design is about making choices for the player. Game design is about constraining what the player can do, and then letting the player have fun within those constraints.

 

Just because something doesn't affect another player (the "it's SP" reasonibg) does not make it a good basis for doing it anyway, because "not negatively affecting another player" does not form the basis for making a good game system.

 

 

The comment was not about game design at all but rather the quaint custom on Game forums (especially RPG forums) where people arbitrarily decide what the "rules" are going to be for them and set out to debate the issue with other people who have decided other rules may fit their playstyle better - Parenthesis or not they still end up debating cheaters and non-cheaters while often times the ACTUAL rules (or lack there of) as set out (or not) by the games developer team may fit suitably for either party. - Sometimes the debate devolves into RP vs power-gaming where sparks truly fly and in either case it can be an entertaining way to spend a few minutes watching the action from the sidelines or occasionally poking one side or the other to keep things moving...

 

That's my only point - carry on as you will...

[Sedrefilos]

Let's say it one more time: if want SO MUCH to roll, grab 3 dice, roll them on the table... voi-la! It's even more thrilling doing it this way because you're rolling the dice and not the pc.

Why would you want to mess up the system with dice rolling anyway? This isn't D&D get over it people.

[IRMA]

I would love an option to roll attributes at chargen. I very much enjoyed rolling until my eyes bled in the BG series and ToEE. It would be marvy if this was possible in PoE.

 

Nope.

Because it would be more like Baldurs Gate.. and you know, Josh Sawyer didn't like it.

[Marceror]

Drats. Foiled again.

[Seaking4]

 

I would love an option to roll attributes at chargen. I very much enjoyed rolling until my eyes bled in the BG series and ToEE. It would be marvy if this was possible in PoE.

 

 

Nope.

Because it would be more like Baldurs Gate.. and you know, Josh Sawyer didn't like it.

Well to be fair you can still like Baldur's Gate and hate the character creation it (and Icewind Dale) used. In fact, I started a game of Icewind Dale and I spent more time rolling for attributes than playing yesterday (and they didn't even come out that great ). It was just a dull way to create characters that had more to do with luck (or persistence depending on your point of view) than with player skill. Not that character creation in games where you can allocate points require skill.

[wanderon]

 

 

I would love an option to roll attributes at chargen. I very much enjoyed rolling until my eyes bled in the BG series and ToEE. It would be marvy if this was possible in PoE.

 

Nope.

Because it would be more like Baldurs Gate.. and you know, Josh Sawyer didn't like it.

Well to be fair you can still like Baldur's Gate and hate the character creation it (and Icewind Dale) used. In fact, I started a game of Icewind Dale and I spent more time rolling for attributes than playing yesterday (and they didn't even come out that great ). It was just a dull way to create characters that had more to do with luck (or persistence depending on your point of view) than with player skill. Not that character creation in games where you can allocate points require skill.

 

 

Not skill perhaps but at least a little thought - I for one am enjoying the idea of working with characters that can have moderate scores in almost everything without being totally gimped. (Not that gimped play isn't fun now and then)

[Silent Winter]

 

Well to be fair you can still like Baldur's Gate and hate the character creation it (and Icewind Dale) used. In fact, I started a game of Icewind Dale and I spent more time rolling for attributes than playing yesterday (and they didn't even come out that great ). It was just a dull way to create characters that had more to do with luck (or persistence depending on your point of view) than with player skill. Not that character creation in games where you can allocate points require skill.

At that stage - just use Dalekeeper to edit in some reasonable stats  -allocate yourself a 80-90 roll and then 'point-buy' or something.

 

I'd only use a rolling system if it were 'roll your stats' then 'choose an appropriate class' - but in PoE, even that's (supposed to be) moot.  So yeah, dice on desktop for my 'take what you're given' playthrough (rolling for class/background/culture/etc included at no extra dev-time )