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How to Fix the Attribute Design in Pillars of Eternity

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First! ;D

 

But seriously, everyone - this has been a passion project for the both of us for almost the last two weeks, and we're very excited to be able to share it with you. Thanks in advance for reading, and for your feedback. I'm Matt516 and I approve this paper. :)

Edited by Matt516
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:) Already said it, but great proposal. Will spark an interesting discussion at the veeeery least.

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Superb effort. I'm still wading through the details but what I've seen so far looks like an improvement on the current system. I hope Josh and his team aren't too proud to take a suggestion like this seriously and test it out.

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Amazing work you guys, really amazing. I like the changes a lot. Esp. the perception change, it makes sense.

 

I would just like to ask how does Deflection fit thematically to Resolve? It really does make more sense to me to have deflection on Dexterity, but I understand the reasons. Would having deflection and IAS on Dexterity be plausible or too overpowered/hard to balance?

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Resolve is like your determination and stuff right? You have so much guts and determination that you are a boss at defending your body and your mind ... however this does not mean that your body can defend you from Fortitude and Reflex attacks that are beyond it's capability.

 

(Yes I had that answer pre-made for that exact question ;))

 

And to your second question, there really isn't anything else you can use without making up a new mechanic. We have just used the existing mechanics. IAS and Deflection would be OP as they are both major combat stats in the game.

Edited by Sensuki
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Great job.  :thumbsup: 

I had some similar ideas for DEX and PER, and I think your solution makes sense. RES also sounds logical and intuitive, so that's great.

 

There's obviously still the Might issue, but yeah, I would imagine that making a character with this system is fun, and it seems like an improvement over the current system because it's overall more intuitive. 

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This is absolutely brilliant. Not only is your proposal mechanically sounder, but it's also more intuitive and immediately understandable and makes better thematic sense -- yet the adjustments were really rather minor, not like a complete rewrite.

 

Plus the argumentation is rock solid.

 

If Obs doesn't take notice, I'll get my pitchfork ready. Or pollaxe, for the slash/crush damage, depending.

 

(Edit: yes to your three questions, duh.)

Edited by PrimeJunta
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I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

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Hmmm, I don't think it's that different in terms of intuitiveness. They've just shuffled things around a bit, and added Deflection and Speed into the mix. So, it's actually more complex now.

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I've read through it, top to bottom. In general, I am supportive of the proposed changes. It is good that you spent much of the paper discussing Increased Attack Speed, because the changes it could present are monumental.

 

One significant thing about those changes, is that they will not be uniform among all classes because of the divergent resource mechanics that they use. IAS would only be marginally beneficial to a Wizard, Druid, or Sorcerer as they have very rationed resources. Ciphers and Chanters would benefit TREMENDOUSLY from increased IAS. 

 

While Resolve, in name, sounds ackward, the overall changes as explained seem well and good. I still think that abilities and spells would need critical rework in their activation/cooldown, but this is a step in the correct direction.

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Actually I think Priests and Druids would benefit more from IAS than Chanters and Ciphers because Chanters and Ciphers spend a lot of time attacking, and Might is *always* better damage wise. Intellect is *always* better durations wise.

What it does do is allow for different types of builds that focus on different things.

 

I think a lot of people will benefit from this paper's analysis of the game's systems too - now you know what most of the attributes give per point (relatively anyway).

Edited by Sensuki
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Hmmm, I don't think it's that different in terms of intuitiveness. They've just shuffled things around a bit, and added Deflection and Speed into the mix. So, it's actually more complex now.

 

I disagree. PER and RES are mushy and hard to understand under the current system. Sensuki's and Matt's proposal beefs them up. They immediately become more understandable. I can now better picture what a perceptive or resolute character is like.

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I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

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I still find +damage for everything Might aesthetically poor, but ideas to increase speed of characters and pump per&res the way presented are better than what we have now.

I'd also add better health ratios somewhere into there, con or res maybe.

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Actually I think Priests and Druids would benefit more from IAS than Chanters and Ciphers because Chanters and Ciphers spend a lot of time attacking, and Might is *always* better damage wise. Intellect is *always* better durations wise.

 

What it does do is allow for different types of builds that focus on different things.

 

Priests, Druids, and Wizards would only be able to burst more efficiently. They might even be able to interrupt something with a spell, but still unlikely. The overall benefit is marginal because of their resource limitations. They would burn more brightly, but briefly. With the frequency of combat, it is difficult to appreciate that distinction.

 

With respect to Chanters, they would be tossing out invocations much more quickly at no real cost. Ciphers would be the greatest beneficiaries, as it would allow them to both gain and expend resources more quickly.

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This is the crux of the matter, so I figured I'd post it here for quick visibility. I'm still taking it in, but on the whole I'm liking it. I'm definitely feeling that it addresses the "no dump stat" requirement better.

 

 Might: +% Damage and Healing (+2% per pt)

 Constitution: +% Stamina and Health (+2% per pt)

 Dexterity: +% Increased Action Speed (+2% per pt)

 Perception: + Accuracy and +% Interrupt (+1 and +1% per pt)

 Intellect: +% Durations and AoEs (+5% per pt)

 Resolve: + Deflection & +% Concentration (+1 and +1% per pt)


"Now to find a home for my other staff."
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I have to agree with the proposed changes.

 

Would the bomus in recovery be applied before or after the armor penalty?


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Priests, Druids, and Wizards would only be able to burst more efficiently. They might even be able to interrupt something with a spell, but still unlikely. The overall benefit is marginal because of their resource limitations. They would burn more brightly, but briefly. With the frequency of combat, it is difficult to appreciate that distinction.

 

With respect to Chanters, they would be tossing out invocations much more quickly at no real cost. Ciphers would be the greatest beneficiaries, as it would allow them to both gain and expend resources more quickly.

Because IAS has the greatest benefits in regards to non-damaging spells (as putting a point in Dexterity would be something that you are not spending on something else), I think that it would be most beneficial for Priests and Druids as possibly their secondary attribute.

 

The reason we chose to suggest 2% per point is outlined in the paper - Josh Sawyer has reservations about increased action speed, 2% is not better than any of the other attributes outright, but it's still good. If the devs feel like investigating they could try 2.25%, 2.5% ... etc - but we think 2% is probably the best.

 

Chanter invocations are limited by their chants, they have to sing a number of chants before an invocation can be cast, so the IAS would give more of a bonus to their weapon attacks than anything.

 

Would the bomus in recovery be applied before or after the armor penalty?

It would be additive, as a part of the Action / (1+%IAS) formula, and would reduce the IAS part.

Edited by Sensuki

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I have to agree with the proposed changes.

 

Would the bomus in recovery be applied before or after the armor penalty?

 

It would be applied to everything. So previously if you were 1s attack, 1s recovery, 1s armor penalty, that's 3s total attack time. Then with 30% IAS (15 DEX under our system) that becomes 2.3s total attack time.

 

And just to reiterate - I know the paper's long (boy do I know that xD), but we'd very much appreciate if anyone stumbling on to this thread takes the time to read the paper before replying - I've seen 1 or 2 posts so far that are answered in the paper, albiet maybe in the middle of a long paragraph or something.

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The barbarian aoe interrupt build comes to mind, with the addition of attack speed. I just kind of find it silly, because I think of carnage as cleave, and I kind of imagine it with large weapons instead of stilettos. :lol:

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