Pretty disappointed, this launches in December?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

Sarex: Go get them bugs now, will you!

I am pondering if I should wait for the first patch to come out before I give it a go. First impressions and all that.

Wait.

 

Combat can be fun, but right now there are several bugs that will make some characters useless. Paladin is obviously the best class.

[archangel979]

This interview with Feargus says they are releasing PoE in winter 2014 with no delays and they will tell us the exact date in next few weeks.

[swordofthesith]

 

 

The developers have released this build to get critical feedback regarding core systems a good 4 months away prior to release and to hammer away at bugs that a small development couldn't possibly root out on it's own.

I am absolutely looking forward to giving some critical feedback on the core systems once the bugs with the core systems are fixed!

 

 

 

 

Huzzah Sensuki!

 

That's the spirit! Kudos to you on the incredible feedback you have been providing the Devs through your Vlogs by the way, especially RE the UI design! I hope they consider your recommendations. I myself plan on staying off this general discussion forum and dedicating more of my time to the bug forum when they release the next build!   

Edited August 29, 2014 by swordofthesith

[Karkarov]

Feargus just confirmed in Matt Chat that it will be released this year! And the release date will be dropped next week. Now wonder we don't get much of devs here on the forums and no update - they're busy as bees patching this up.

Which is exactly what they should be doing, not responding to fear mongers on the forums.

[Dr Zaius]

Feels like Alpha. Early Alpha.

 

They shouldn't have advertised it was in Beta. 

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

Feargus just confirmed in Matt Chat that it will be released this year! And the release date will be dropped next week. Now wonder we don't get much of devs here on the forums and no update - they're busy as bees patching this up.

Which is exactly what they should be doing, not responding to fear mongers on the forums.

 

And thank god for that! My only fear is that they miss quite a lot of good and useful feedback in among all our worries and bandying of strong opinions. Luckily, I've seen a few of the devs picking through even the worst wasp nests of threads here. Regardless of what some people sometimes claim here, Obsidian do listen, and they have changed their minds on forum feedback before, but they are not required to do so, obviously. It's their product, their decisions all the way.

Edited August 29, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

This was already evident that it was the intent from the class system. A class is a game mechanic, period. Unlike IE engine games (because of D&D really), once you've tried it once, it'll pretty much always be the same after that.

 

That said, I'm sure there will be some reason to replay the game because of the small background/class variations in the story but one thing's for sure, you'll never replay it because you want to try a different fighter style or wizard style or ranger style. There are no styles from what I could see so far: A fighter is a fighter is a fighter is a fighter. And since everyone can use any weapon and armor anytime for any reason with the same exact effects, you probably will want to avoid having two characters of the same class in your party, even though they're pretty cool, since they'll be EXACTLY the same (with just small variations based on attributes or talents, which doesn't matter much anyway in a d100 system)

 

 

I created a Rogue and when I started the game, it added four other characters to my party. Fighter, Rogue, Priest and Wizard. which I didn't know. So I had two Rogues which wasn't too bad but did seem like a waste. The rogues had different attributes and I min-maxed my Rogue and it was pretty much the same as the Beta Rogue.

 

I also bought a 6th companion from the inn being a Ranger with Bear Companion which I found pretty good. The bear packs a punch and took down many enemies. I also min-maxed the Ranger with Mig 19, Con 18, Dex 18, Per 15, Int 3, Res 5 just for the lulz and found it to be pretty good. Yes, there are dump stats. Or should I say, the attributes are so small in variance you don't really notice the different builds. At least I didn't with the two rogues in my party.

 

The important stats I found are your skills like Mechanics, Lore, Athletics, etc for the different tasks.  Don't have enough mechanics to lock pick? That lock in the tower in the town will stay locked until you level up. No random dice rolls. One problem is you can't level up by killing things, so you have to find another quest to find and then complete it to level up and then you can raise your mechanics skill and go back and lock pick that lock in the tower. The Survival skill was useless, but to be fair it is the Beta so there was no use for it that I found, but it may come in play in the final game.

 

And some of your attributes are important too like Might for tasks. So it's wise to min-max each character so each has an attribute and skill maxed for the tasks. But this makes me want to min-max to get access to all the tasks and dialogue options. While the design decisions seemed good in theory for some people on this forum, in practice it's a system for a min-maxer powergamer like myself to abuse. And then it becomes the default for me because I then have all the options opened. if I don't min-max and decide to 'roleplay' I'll probably miss out on those options.

 

And as Monte said, combat is a like a scrum. Enemies sprint in and you're locked in melee. It's just one big cluster****. LOL.

[war:head]

Feels like Alpha. Early Alpha.

 

They shouldn't have advertised it was in Beta. 

 

                             

[Ink Blot]

The important stats I found are your skills like Mechanics, Lore, Athletics, etc for the different tasks.  Don't have enough mechanics to lock pick? That lock in the tower in the town will stay locked until you level up. No random dice rolls. One problem is you can't level up by killing things, so you have to find another quest to find and then complete it to level up and then you can raise your mechanics skill and go back and lock pick that lock in the tower. The Survival skill was useless, but to be fair it is the Beta so there was no use for it that I found, but it may come in play in the final game.

Or, you could find lockpicks and/or the gloves that add +2 to your Mechanics skill (can't recall the name of them offhand) and open that lock before levelling.

 

As for the min/maxing, that may change in the final build once they start to tweak and balance. Like you, I'm powergamer at heart and like to min/max as well, so just pointing out that this may be a bit tougher to do in the release build. One thing about the dialog (with NPCs) options: I was told by one of the devs when I asked about this that in dialog interactions with NPCs, the game looks only at your PC character's stats/skill scores. Other party members are not taken into account for those. Party NPC values can be used in scripted events, tasks, lockpicking etc. But not in convos.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Or, you could find lockpicks and/or the gloves that add +2 to your Mechanics skill (can't recall the name of them offhand) and open that lock before levelling.

 

As for the min/maxing, that may change in the final build once they start to tweak and balance. Like you, I'm powergamer at heart and like to min/max as well, so just pointing out that this may be a bit tougher to do in the release build. One thing about the dialog (with NPCs) options: I was told by one of the devs when I asked about this that in dialog interactions with NPCs, the game looks only at your PC character's stats/skill scores. Other party members are not taken into account for those. Party NPC values can be used in scripted events, tasks, lockpicking etc. But not in convos.

 

 

I didn't find the gloves so I had to level up to unlock it.

 

Ah, I didn't know about dialogue only for your character. I thought it took all your party members into consideration like the tasks. I did miss out on dialogue options though, thinking the NPCs didn't have enough in their attributes. Oh well. So if your character doesn't have enough Resolve or Intelligence for your Rogue, you basically miss out on all those dialogue options throughout the game, even if an NPC does have the required attribute. Seems worse than I expected. eg. My Druid is speaking to someone, has the required Resolve but looks at my attributes and the game says, Nope, not enough.

 

At least you can mix-max your characters for the tasks as you've said which is what I did in my play through and what I'll be doing in the final game.

[Ink Blot]

I didn't find the gloves so I had to level up to unlock it.

 

Ah, I didn't know about dialogue only for your character. I thought it took all your party members into consideration like the tasks. I did miss out on dialogue options though, thinking the NPCs didn't have enough in their attributes. Oh well. So if your character doesn't have enough Resolve or Intelligence for your Rogue, you basically miss out on all those dialogue options throughout the game, even if an NPC does have the required attribute. Seems worse than I expected. eg. My Druid is speaking to someone, has the required Resolve but looks at my attributes and the game says, Nope, not enough.

 

At least you can mix-max your characters for the tasks as you've said which is what I did in my play through and what I'll be doing in the final game.

 

Yeah, this is what confused me as well, and I reported it as a bug only to find it's WAD. I missed a Lore check in dialog but knew my Wizard had more than enough Lore to cover the check, so was wondering why it failed. NCarver told me the game looks only at the PC's stats/skill in dialog.

 

Re the locks, if you find lockpicks, you can use them to open a lock. The number you're short on the skill check is how many lockpicks you'll need. So that's at least one possible way to get around the need to level before trying again. Not certain, but I think the gloves are a random loot drop because I didn't find them on every run. Wish I could recall exactly where I got them, but I've run so many builds through the game that it's all jumbled together.

[Sensuki]

That's the spirit! Kudos to you on the incredible feedback you have been providing the Devs through your Vlogs by the way, especially RE the UI design! I hope they consider your recommendations.

Cheers, but I am pretty unoptimistic about any changes to UI screens other than the stash window becoming larger, nevertheless I will fight to the bitter end!

Edited August 29, 2014 by Sensuki

[Malekith]

 

That's the spirit! Kudos to you on the incredible feedback you have been providing the Devs through your Vlogs by the way, especially RE the UI design! I hope they consider your recommendations.

Cheers, but I am pretty unoptimistic about any changes to UI screens other than the stash window becoming larger, nevertheless I will fight to the bitter end!

 

Why is that? I think Kaz or Sawyer has said that the UI is the final thing they will lock and it'll continue to be workrd on until the last moment.

At this point half the forum has problem with the current UI, so it stands to reason they will work on it. Or did i miss anything?

[Gromnir]

 

That's the spirit! Kudos to you on the incredible feedback you have been providing the Devs through your Vlogs by the way, especially RE the UI design! I hope they consider your recommendations.

Cheers, but I am pretty unoptimistic about any changes to UI screens other than the stash window becoming larger, nevertheless I will fight to the bitter end!

 

am admitting that we believe that many o' the "essential" changes we had hoped for from PoE will now be part o' the paid-for expansion that is s'posed already in development. why do improvements for free when you can squeeze a few extra bucks outta fans to make things right? 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 29, 2014 by Gromnir

[Sensuki]

Why is that? I think Kaz or Sawyer has said that the UI is the final thing they will lock and it'll continue to be workrd on until the last moment.

At this point half the forum has problem with the current UI, so it stands to reason they will work on it. Or did i miss anything?

Dunno, just felt a fair bit of rigidity from Josh during past UI discussions. I think the following is pretty reasonable:

 

1. Split the UI into three chunks and be able to juggle the order of them and add some extra menu buttons and have a solid background art

• Portraits Menu Log
• Portraits Log Menu
• Menu Log Portraits
• Menu Portraits Log
• Log Menu Portraits
• Log Portraits Menu

      2. As per my suggestion - move the log to the left and add some extra menu buttons

 

To be honest #1 is probably the best solution, Wasteland 2 was able to do it

 

I'm glad it's not just me that thinks both the Main HUD and Inventory need work

Edited August 29, 2014 by Sensuki

[Malekith]

 

Why is that? I think Kaz or Sawyer has said that the UI is the final thing they will lock and it'll continue to be workrd on until the last moment.

At this point half the forum has problem with the current UI, so it stands to reason they will work on it. Or did i miss anything?

Dunno, just felt a fair bit of rigidity from Josh during past UI discussions. I think the following is pretty reasonable:

 

1. Split the UI into three chunks and be able to juggle the order of them and add some extra menu buttons and have a solid background art

• Portraits Menu Log
• Portraits Log Menu
• Menu Log Portraits
• Menu Portraits Log
• Log Menu Portraits
• Log Portraits Menu

      2. As per my suggestion - move the log to the left and add some extra menu buttons

 

To be honest #1 is probably the best solution, Wasteland 2 was able to do it

 

I'm glad it's not just me that thinks both the Main HUD and Inventory need work

 

I don't know, don't the 1. solution mess with the solid UI if you are able to juggle the individual parts around? A better solution would be to move combat log to the left or middle, have the seldom used rest/attack/pause etc.part of the UI right, and design the solid UI around that placement.

After all, i haven't seen anyone disagree that the part currently in the middle could be moved to right with no problem, even from tha camp that considers the log equaly useless.

 

And i don't think Josh is rigid about UI,remember at first he said that the game will have only a solid UI, and then flipfloped and said they would do two diferent UIs. 

I find most propable that he is at a loss. W2 had the exact same problem, changing the UI completely 100 times and still going. It doesn't help that there isn't a single game that it's UI had a possitive reception in the last ten years. I have heard people say Bethesda UIs are crap, Witcher 2 crap, ME crap, DAO crap.  And it's not because of consoles either, because even PC centric games like DAO, DOS, ToEE, NWN2 have a huge crowd of detractors.

And here we see that IE game's style UI isn't appealing to some people who want minimalistic UI. There is not a unified opinion on what a game UI should look like.

[PrimeJunta]

I'm a bit puzzled why he didn't just crib the IWD2 UI. It was pretty refined at that point, with most of the kinks worked out. Why reinvent the wheel when there's a perfectly good one there for the taking, especially when you're risking inventing a worse one?

 

If you want to add a floaty option, there's no reason you couldn't just remove the backing from the IWD2 one.

[IndiraLightfoot]

There are plenty of time savers like that I simply assumed that they would reap the benefits from, but Josh & Co have been very ambitious...

Edited August 29, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Sarex]

I'm a bit puzzled why he didn't just crib the IWD2 UI. It was pretty refined at that point, with most of the kinks worked out. Why reinvent the wheel when there's a perfectly good one there for the taking, especially when you're risking inventing a worse one?

 

If you want to add a floaty option, there's no reason you couldn't just remove the backing from the IWD2 one.

 

Why reinvent the wheel on half the things in PoE... Only they know.

[PrimeJunta]

@Sarex and others -- I don't know about you guys, but I can pretty easily understand the reasons for the other reinventions in P:E. The XP system? Much less work to implement, test, and balance. The resting system? Makes per-rest limitations actually mean something. The per-encounter abilities? Soften the blow of the resting system. The ability scores? Avoid cookie-cutter builds and establish a brand identity that's obviously distinct from DnD (STR-DEX-CON-INT-WIS-CHA would produce misleading expectations). And so on. You may not agree with the reasons, but there are reasons, and the reasons are understandable. The stash? Make packrats' lives easier without completely watering down inventory management (fail IMO, would be better with unlimited inventory -- but I understand the thinking). And so on.

 

As someone who really dislikes many of DnD's mechanics -- I loved the IE games despite the DnD, not because of it -- I also respect Josh's effort at reforming them while keeping the spirit alive immensely. Those mechanics do need fixing, and even when he fails, he tends to fail for understandable reasons.

 

But the decision to redesign the UI I just don't get. I can't think of any good reason they would do that.

Edited August 29, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[Seari]

 I also respect Josh's effort at reforming them while keeping the spirit alive immensely.

Debatable. Only the 2D backgrounds and dialogue is reminiscent of the IE games, combat on the other hand is more like NwN2(complete and utter ****).

 

p.s. 3D models were a horrible idea.

[Sarex]

p.s. 3D models were a horrible idea.

 

They are a time saver as far as I remember, I think one of the devs said they had no time for paperdolls.

[Immortalis]

@Sarex and others -- I don't know about you guys, but I can pretty easily understand the reasons for the other reinventions in P:E. The XP system? Much less work to implement, test, and balance. The resting system? Makes per-rest limitations actually mean something. The per-encounter abilities? Soften the blow of the resting system. The ability scores? Avoid cookie-cutter builds and establish a brand identity that's obviously distinct from DnD (STR-DEX-CON-INT-WIS-CHA would produce misleading expectations). And so on. You may not agree with the reasons, but there are reasons, and the reasons are understandable. The stash? Make packrats' lives easier without completely watering down inventory management (fail IMO, would be better with unlimited inventory -- but I understand the thinking). And so on.

 

As someone who really dislikes many of DnD's mechanics -- I loved the IE games despite the DnD, not because of it -- I also respect Josh's effort at reforming them while keeping the spirit alive immensely. Those mechanics do need fixing, and even when he fails, he tends to fail for understandable reasons.

 

But the decision to redesign the UI I just don't get. I can't think of any good reason they would do that.

 

To be honest just reading this I see so many new conflicts in Josh Sawyers logic. Like for every degenerative thing he removed from IE he added another one in.

 

For example. Josh states that a patient player can collect every item that drops which is degenerative gameplay so he implemented an unlimited stash. Then he turns around and creates limited resting mechanic to prevent constant resting after each encounter.. However.. a patient player can just run back to the inn and restock up and the whole point of that mechanic was worked around using the same tactic that his limitless stash was supposed to prevent.

 

PrimeJunta.. Please read the above with an open mind before bashing it down.. I think you will agree with me on this one point.

 

The rest is my opinion..

 

Does Josh have his heart in the right place? YES of course he wants to make a great game..

 

Did he have a bit of hubris when tackling this game? I have to say yes.. You didn't need to reinvent the wheel.. there were obvious issues with IE but you clearly thought you could do the best game ever on a small budget and even smaller timeline.. This wasn't the kickstarter to try new untested ideas.. it was the kickstarter to get people hooked back into IE style games.

[PrimeJunta]

Yeh, I'm not a huge fan of the inventory system either. I don't like inventory that needs to be managed. I'd rather just have an unlimited, auto-sorting inventory, and if it improves gameplay, limitations on accessing it e.g. during combat. Let me manage my weapon sets and quick items, and keep everything else in a spreadsheet. Dragging icons from one box to another is not the reason I play this kind of game. If that makes me a filthy casual, then fine.

 

And yeah, I believe some players are going to be constantly running back and forth between the inn and the dungeon. Most of them will probably give up on the game because that's tedious and boring, unless they were the same people who packratted dungeons in the IE games in which case they'll like it just fine, since their diligence has a commensurate payoff in power.

 

I believe, though, that for a larger group of players the mechanic will work as intended. I rest-spammed shamelessly in all the games that allowed it. I don't rest-spam in the P:E beta, and quite like that part about it (although some stuff could be tweaked; I get fatigued earlier than I think I ought to, and the stam/health ratio is currently too punishing).

 

I don't know BTW if Josh would consider packratting degenerate; rest-spamming certainly is. So in this case at least IMO the resting mechanic is a clear net gain, whereas the inventory is currently about as annoying as it was in the IE games, without the 'simulationist' benefit of (absurdly permissive) encumbrance mechanics.

[Immortalis]

Yeh, I'm not a huge fan of the inventory system either. I don't like inventory that needs to be managed. I'd rather just have an unlimited, auto-sorting inventory, and if it improves gameplay, limitations on accessing it e.g. during combat. Let me manage my weapon sets and quick items, and keep everything else in a spreadsheet. Dragging icons from one box to another is not the reason I play this kind of game. If that makes me a filthy casual, then fine.

 

And yeah, I believe some players are going to be constantly running back and forth between the inn and the dungeon. Most of them will probably give up on the game because that's tedious and boring, unless they were the same people who packratted dungeons in the IE games in which case they'll like it just fine, since their diligence has a commensurate payoff in power.

 

I believe, though, that for a larger group of players the mechanic will work as intended. I rest-spammed shamelessly in all the games that allowed it. I don't rest-spam in the P:E beta, and quite like that part about it (although some stuff could be tweaked; I get fatigued earlier than I think I ought to, and the stam/health ratio is currently too punishing).

 

I don't know BTW if Josh would consider packratting degenerate; rest-spamming certainly is. So in this case at least IMO the resting mechanic is a clear net gain, whereas the inventory is currently about as annoying as it was in the IE games, without the 'simulationist' benefit of (absurdly permissive) encumbrance mechanics.

 

My point was more about the potential for degenerative gameplay and the big irony of Josh trying to make a perfect system.. His reasons for implementing one feature run contradictory to another feature..

 

Having unlimited inventory would have the same contradiction but thats not the point im trying to make.. I don't wanna debate the features themselves just the fact that it's harder then it looks to just implement a "perfect system" and he should have used more discreation before axing features or adding new ones.

 

Does that make sense?

 

The degenerative gameplay hasn't gone away.. it just has a new shade of lipstick.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Immortalis