Pretty disappointed, this launches in December?

[Mayama]

I think that you need both if you want to make a deep system. Both work for a cRPG and I guess you dont need more than one in a computer game because the character development isnt that great, it usually suffers from the problem that the PC is a blank sheet of paper. Alignment shows you what you are and reputation, well... its reputation. For example a well adapted sociopath that does good things to hide what he really is would have a lawfull evil alignment but a very nice reputation. I think the concept of alignment has a bad reputation (lol) because most D&D settings use it in a cheesy comic villian way. All evil characters are cruel and sadistic etc etc.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Mayama

[mutonizer]

...er..I mean, the mechanics are very simple, and they don't need any analysis at all, do they... What's interesting is what the writers do with it throughout the game.

 

Even if it seems pretty obvious, even from the little we see in the beta, that they're not treating this as a Bioware "reputation" stat. That you walk up to a character and they say: "Hi, mr [reputation alignment] guy!". Or that you get a "Only you can save the world" prompt every now and again.

 

Instead, the "reputation" is an internal tally that shows the tendency of the character you're roleplaying as. And when you gain enough points, the character feels confident enough to attempt more audacious lies, or string together more complex reasoning, use threats more effectively, etc. Without that really guaranteeing success, more than just giving you an option to choose a different path, or to figure out more about the characters in the quest, and so on.

 

And the dialogue really does read completely different depending on what sort of character you are. The flow between a might-build and a perception/intelligence build is well written as well. ..I'm liking the entire approach. Set your character abilities and the direction of it early. Then find your alignment and focus later. Makes a lot of sense.

 

Errr...what? No, it has nothing to do with your PC, but with NPCs you face. Otherwise they'd call if Behavior or something and actually use it that way in game.

 

at 23m27s

 

 

edit:

Though Mr Sawyer does seem to think that personality = reputation and how others perceive you...

..That's...that's...I don't what to say to that

Edited September 6, 2014 by mutonizer

[khermann]

 

 

Bugs matter no to khermann, khermann want good gameplay at release. If bugs make good gameplay at release, khermann happy. khermann no care about what IE is to all others, khermann understands subjectivity. khermann also know making classless classes with meaningless attributes is degenerative design, not progenitive gameplay. khermann also know gamers have too many good options to tolerate a **** release, patch or no, and khermann reckons backers will know the difference.

 

HEH good fun

The cheese, it is grating.

Have you met my good friend Gromnir?

 

It is love to all peoples.

 

p.s. Where is our patch?

Edited September 6, 2014 by khermann

[PrimeJunta]

Because it's not something that defines him by himself, but how others perceive him, while providing no explanation whatsoever as to how they actually know about it. I don't mind the concept as a whole as it can indeed lead to some really interesting stuff RP/story wise, but when you start structuring it with neat little boxes, points, meters and probably steam achievements, all of them available for the player to see, then I think it's flawed, cheap and out of the players hand.

 

But don't alignment mechanics have exactly the same problem? The game's makers can only know what you said or did, not why you chose to say or do that. Similarly, if you tie mechanical consequences to the alignment, you get incentive effects. A reputation system is IMO more honest as it admits that it only works on perceptions.

[Infinitron]

I like how evil characters in D&D know that they're evil.
 
"Be it known to all those of evil intent, that a bounty has been placed upon the head of CHARNAME, the foster child of Gorion."

 

It's pretty funny.

[Namutree]

I like how evil characters in D&D know that they're evil.

 

"Be it known to all those of evil intent, that a bounty has been placed upon the head of CHARNAME, the foster child of Gorion."

 

It's pretty funny.

I like it to. It's childish, fun, and the opposite of our real world. Exactly the way fantasy morality should be.

[mutonizer]

I like how evil characters in D&D know that they're evil.

 

"Be it known to all those of evil intent, that a bounty has been placed upon the head of CHARNAME, the foster child of Gorion."

 

It's pretty funny.

 

Because it's a fact of life in such fantasy settings, not a matter of perception. Cosmic forces actually make written rules about what is evil, what is good, it's a fact, material, not a a culture based opinion, etc. That's why you can detect it via spells.

 

Again, don't get me wrong, I don't really like this kind of manichean view and like settings where it's more gritty and things are not as clear cut as this and I also really like the concept of reputations. But not when it's just slapping a cheap "reputation" meter and calling it job done. Fallout karma system was just as silly and aggravating really.

[Karkarov]

edit:

Though Mr Sawyer does seem to think that personality = reputation and how others perceive you...

..That's...that's...I don't what to say to that

That's because it isn't.  Eternity uses two systems. 

 

1: A Personality system where your character is known to behave in a certain way.  You seem to hate this system for some reason I can only assume because your grognard levels are vastly superior to your role player levels and you see everything as numbers game instead of just playing your character how you think they would behave in a given situation.

 

2:  A literal reputation system where faction X gives you a quest and how you handle it effects your reputation with that faction and the factions associated with it.

 

Basically it is your "perceived" attitude and your "real" attitude at work.  One is based on what people see and how you act, the other is based on what you actually do.

[Tartantyco]

mutonizer, this isn't complicated. Your actions define your reputation, so your reputation is literally based on your behavior. And that reputation literally propagates through the game world ahead of you, because it's your reputation.

[Wintersong]

 

I like how evil characters in D&D know that they're evil.

 

"Be it known to all those of evil intent, that a bounty has been placed upon the head of CHARNAME, the foster child of Gorion."

 

It's pretty funny.

 

Because it's a fact of life in such fantasy settings, not a matter of perception. Cosmic forces actually make written rules about what is evil, what is good, it's a fact, material, not a a culture based opinion, etc. That's why you can detect it via spells.

 

Again, don't get me wrong, I don't really like this kind of manichean view and like settings where it's more gritty and things are not as clear cut as this and I also really like the concept of reputations. But not when it's just slapping a cheap "reputation" meter and calling it job done. Fallout karma system was just as silly and aggravating really.

 

You cannot detect evil always. If Dr Evil is just chiling out in the local inn, behaving like just a regular Doe, you won't detect him with your Paladin's Detect Evil ability. At least, that was explained in some old piece of D&D. And it made sense because no one is having evil thoughts 100% of the time.

 

It does clash with stuff like Circle Against Evil and such? Plainly, yes. Unless you want to tie each soul to a plane in Planescape and that making it work. Evidence of how wonky the aligment system in D&D is.

 

Culture should matter... but then you get stuff like D&D 5th that explains that orcs are always CE because they were created by a CE god that didn't want them to be independent (only good gods do that). Ok, the example mentioned how even if they could be different, those CE tendencies would never disappear from them blah blah blah. Rule 0 and be done with it.

 

I prefer reputations to aligment. You may not have stuff like "Sword that Only Evil people can use me for awesome +30 to attack" but it's a small price to pay. Yes, the NE char in Neverwinter Nights 2 did what he did for good reasons but doesn't change the fact that he is boxed in NE aligment.

[archangel979]

 

 

I like how evil characters in D&D know that they're evil.

 

"Be it known to all those of evil intent, that a bounty has been placed upon the head of CHARNAME, the foster child of Gorion."

 

It's pretty funny.

Because it's a fact of life in such fantasy settings, not a matter of perception. Cosmic forces actually make written rules about what is evil, what is good, it's a fact, material, not a a culture based opinion, etc. That's why you can detect it via spells.

Yes. This is exactly how alignment works in d&d. Your character does things and cosmic forces decide you alignment. It does not matter how you or anyone perceives you. Detect and other alignment based spells confirm this to the residents of that world.

 

PoE system like real life works opposite. There is only how you and others perceive you. No way to find out your true self.

 

In the end both systems mean little unless the game uses them. In IE games alignment had almost zero use and was more a mechanical limit in multiclassing, with some magic items or with choice of familiar.

[Monte Carlo]

Like a lot of the background stuff in PoE, the reputation system is actually pretty cool. You need to be consistent in how your character reacts to stuff to build up a reputation one way or the other, which makes complete sense.

[TrueMenace]

Give them time, hopefully they are listening to our feedback.

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2014 by TrueMenace

[khermann]

I look forward to the first patch, until then I am not playing.

 

There is simply too much left to speculation in the design and intent, which is sad because I would have expected those things to be more conspicuous in a beta, bugs and content coverage notwithstanding , but we shall see.

 

GL all.

Edited September 7, 2014 by khermann

[Tartantyco]

The first patch is out, khermann.

[khermann]

Woooooo! This thread shouldn't have been my first stop LOL. Downloading!

[Arsene Lupin]

I agree on the whole of it that the four months or so Obsidian has slated for the beta feels... foolishly optimistic.

 

But at the same time, you have o recognize two things: first, that once the groundwork for a game is in place (which takes a long time) developing the rest--adding the polish to transform crude-hewn stone into faceted diamond, so to speak--can proceed with astonishing alacrity; and that how well and how quickly a team is able to complete this polish is more dependent on its collective competence than the time they have allocated to do it.

 

 

I would remind everyone of Divinity: Original Sin. It is one of the best-recieved CRPGs in more than a decade, and has remained at the top of Steam's bestselling titles since its release more than one month ago. From December 2013 to July 2014 it moved from open alpha to beta to its final release version--and the initial build of the alpha was in a very sorry state. Barely stable at all, missing most of its art assets, missing all of its sound effects and music, absent the fancier lighting effects, quest triggers, encounters, items--even entire dungeons.The people at Larian were clearly extraordinarily competent to transform that mess into DOS as we know it today inside of so short a span of time.

 

It seems appropriate that we expect Obsidian to be capable of improving their game as much as Larian. Though, again, I feel four months is foolishly short.

[aeonsim]

Four months seems reasonable, if you look at IWD2 that was 10months in total starting with the IE engine that they needed to heavily modify to support D&D3.

 

Looking at the current state of the Beta it seems like they mainly need to do a lot of bug fixing, improve SFX, and coding to improve the UI & AI. After that most things seem to be tweaking or adjusting current game balance.

 

While those things can take a bit of time I think four months is possible, there will still be a few new bugs in the game when they release and things they continue to alter in patches after release but that's normal. BG2 was hardly bug free at release & D:OS has had some major improvements to UI and plenty of bug fixes since it was released.

 

The goal of the 4 months is to have a playable game with no game breaking bugs or completely unbalanced systems that people can play and enjoy, not a perfect game that never needs a patch...

Edited September 8, 2014 by aeonsim

[khermann]

DOS as a release quality bar is appropriate in this context, I feel.

 

I remain cautiously optimistic and hope it all comes together.

[khermann]

Just read the email that the release date is pushed to next year. Very welcome news. Cheers all

[khermann]

Just read the 10/24 patch notes. Very encouraging stuff, and very happy to see the thread links on many of the changes/enhancements.

 

Probably going to hold out a while longer before I take another run at the beta, and part of that is just life and priorities but I have gone ahead and made this one of my Christmas presents to unwrap.

 

Going from the initial two builds of the beta to whatever we have at years' end should be a fair contrast, by my measure. 

 

I'll still be lurking, hither and yon.  Some of you people are genuinely clever. /tips hat

 

Kindly resume your appointed toil.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

but I have gone ahead and made this one of my Christmas presents to unwrap.

 

You do know this won't be released this year? It's going to be next year now.

[khermann]

 

but I have gone ahead and made this one of my Christmas presents to unwrap.

 

You do know this won't be released this year? It's going to be next year now.

 

 

I do know that, it is discussed earlier in this thread. i was talking about re-installing the beta. 

[khermann]

I'm a man of my word, so here I am at the start of 2015. My last real playtest was Sept 25.

I've stayed completely away from PoE and the forums and I'm going to dive back in with the latest build to contrast against my experience with the first few beta builds. 

 

The comparisons to D:OS are impossible to avoid, and honestly it's a qualtity and gameplay watermark I feel it is very appropriate to, to the point that it would be irresponsible not to, contrast this game against. Considering Obsidian's pedigree there is no reason to shy away from this comparison. The inclusion of "hey look it's a from scratch enging or mechanic or whatever we're making our own special sauce it might never be done so you can't judge it" excuses won't fly. You make a game, it is what it is. If you wanted to make a piecemeal decades-long experiment project, that would be a change in tune.

 

I'm going to do my best to stay objective even though I clearly would prefer it if this game were awesome.

 

 

Back soon

Edited January 2, 2015 by khermann

[PrimeJunta]

@khermann if you do so, play on Normal. Hard is unfairly hard ATM. I'm liking it a lot on Normal though.