Pretty disappointed, this launches in December?

[khermann]

 

 

I... I do not remember your love, Bioware.

That is so hilariously accurate, yet sad at the same time.

 

You were the chosen one. You were supposed to bring us the best RPGs, not get bought by EA.

Yup, we all always hope once the machine swallows an innovator "this time it will be different, this time the brilliance of my beloved dev team will tame the Corporatus Malignus..."

And it never happens because greed.

 

Bioware, Id, so many more..

[Karkarov]

 

 

I... I do not remember your love, Bioware.

That is so hilariously accurate, yet sad at the same time.

 

You were the chosen one. You were supposed to bring us the best RPGs, not get bought by EA.

Yup, we all always hope once the machine swallows an innovator "this time it will be different, this time the brilliance of my beloved dev team will tame the Corporatus Malignus..."

And it never happens because greed.

 

Bioware, Id, so many more..

Right cause those mass effect games and dragon age origins were totally ****, nothing good about them at all.

 

Seriously guys, Bioware is fine.  Things change and companies adapt as time moves on, we should do the same.  As in getting over hating Bioware because they decided to make Mass Effect 2 instead of Baldur's Gate 3.

[Panteleimon]

Right cause those mass effect games and dragon age origins were totally ****, nothing good about them at all.

 

Seriously guys, Bioware is fine.  Things change and companies adapt as time moves on, we should do the same.  As in getting over hating Bioware because they decided to make Mass Effect 2 instead of Baldur's Gate 3.

 

 

 

The reality is they haven't just moved past a 2D gameworld, they've moved past anything other than a mass-market 'interactive cinematic experience'. They're philosophically in the same ballpark as Bungie. Their CFO or whatever, along with other decision-makers, have publicly stated that they will not make another game in the style of Dragon Age: Origins(and we aren't just talking about technical aspects, here) .

 

But this really isn't the thread for this, so I'll leave it there.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Panteleimon

[Marceror]

 

 

 

I... I do not remember your love, Bioware.

That is so hilariously accurate, yet sad at the same time.

 

You were the chosen one. You were supposed to bring us the best RPGs, not get bought by EA.

Yup, we all always hope once the machine swallows an innovator "this time it will be different, this time the brilliance of my beloved dev team will tame the Corporatus Malignus..."

And it never happens because greed.

 

Bioware, Id, so many more..

Right cause those mass effect games and dragon age origins were totally ****, nothing good about them at all.

 

Seriously guys, Bioware is fine.  Things change and companies adapt as time moves on, we should do the same.  As in getting over hating Bioware because they decided to make Mass Effect 2 instead of Baldur's Gate 3.

 

No. Bioware is dead to me also. I don't hate them. I feel nothing for them anymore. They are just another part of the EA Borg.

 

Dragon Age: Origins was the last game they made that meant anything to me. I enjoyed DA2 for a single run through, admittedly, but it totally abandoned the spirit of Origins. Makes sense, since this game started under the helm of EA. I only played it because I had preordered it due to my love of Origins. DA3? I couldn't care less about it.

[Bester]

am expecting many tools the developers has at their disposal nowadays is better and more efficient, but it is our understanding that building games is also more complex today than it were 15 years ago.  am not certain how the balance works in favor or against developers. am aware that developer staffs is necessarily much larger today.

You couldn't be more wrong. Just the other day I had to write an inventory system for an MMO and I did it all in one day. Everything from network code to dragging the inventory window. There are code snippets that you can just google up and libs for everything now. What Blizz accomplished with a fair sized team and years of development can now be achieved with a small team of 3-4 dudes in less than half a year.

 

Of course it doesn't apply to AI, cause that you have to write from scratch. Although Obz having experience with it, could use the pseudo code from their other games, improve and adjust it a little for the new system and then just put it into c# code. I don't know what they're complaining about. Although Josh does the complaining, not the programmers, so it's pretty much irrelevant.

[Bester]

@Bester,

Yes that is fair criticism, thank you. Pathfinding is not a great example, I may have been reaching a bit because I didn't want to trash the obvious challenges with how the combat and xp systems integrate (so hot right now!)

 

Anyway, thank you.

And you... Look. I'm sort of a war nerd and I've closely observed a fair share of conflicts. One of the first thing you notice as a war nerd is this. Good soldiers never panic, even when losing. Civilians panic ALL THE TIME, even if winning.

Same thing I see with you. You're panicking for absolutely no reason. Just observe this: it took Obz a year to build the whole thing. It's a LOT of work, it's a monumental effort. And now they have a few minor bugs and half a year to fix them. Each of those bugs, like items disappearing from inventory, can most likely get fixed by a single line of code. They killed an elephant in a year, you don't think they can kill a microbe in half a year?

They might have some "challenges" like you say, but those are purely conceptual. Once they decide which way they're going, it will be coded really fast. They have a complete framework now, they can get anything to work in a matter of minutes, whichever way they decide to go regarding any game mechanics.

 

For example, let's say they decided to award XP for combat. Simple: take the quest awarding method and divide awarded XP by ten, then add a simple xp awarding method at the death of a hostile creature, calculate awarded XP based on its various stats. Bam, done. A day to change the whole XP mechanics, to basically change the whole game, then another day to tweak it a little and polish it. Done.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Bester

[600lbpanther]

 

@Bester,

Yes that is fair criticism, thank you. Pathfinding is not a great example, I may have been reaching a bit because I didn't want to trash the obvious challenges with how the combat and xp systems integrate (so hot right now!)

 

Anyway, thank you.

And you... Look. I'm sort of a war nerd and I've closely observed a fair share of conflicts. One of the first thing you notice as a war nerd is this. Good soldiers never panic, even when losing. Civilians panic ALL THE TIME, even if winning.

Same thing I see with you. You're panicking for absolutely no reason. Just observe this: it took Obz a year to build the whole thing. It's a LOT of work, it's a monumental effort. And now they have a few minor bugs and half a year to fix them. Each of those bugs, like items disappearing from inventory, can most likely get fixed by a single line of code. They killed an elephant in a year, you don't think they can kill a fly in half a year?

They might have some "challenges" like you say, but those are purely conceptual. Once they decide which way they're going, it will be coded really fast. They have a complete framework now, they can get anything to work in a matter of minutes, whichever way they decide to go regarding any game mechanics.

 

For example, let's say they decide to award XP for combat. Simple: take the quest awarding method and divide awarded XP by ten, then add a simple xp awarding method at the death of a hostile creature, calculate the XP based on its various stats. Bam, done. A day to change the whole XP mechanics, to basically change the whole game, then another day to tweak it a little. Done.

 

 

Not sure what a "war nerd" is.

Definitely not sure they have 6 months until release.

Not sure you know what you're talking about.

 

Definitely sure I want my money back for beta testing.

Definitely sure Divinity:  Original Sin is the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate 2 right now.

[Bester]

Not sure what a "war nerd" is.

Definitely not sure they have 6 months until release.

Not sure you know what you're talking about.

 

Definitely sure I want my money back for beta testing.

Definitely sure Divinity:  Original Sin is the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate 2 right now.

 

 

 

Definitely want my time back for having read your post. And then some more time.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Bester

[Caladian]

Bester, and inventory system is simple compared to a pathing system.  Pathing systems far closer to an AI than to an inventory system.

 

600lbs, D:OS is as much of a spiritual successor to BG as much as Diablo is a spiritual successor of BG.  The main thing both of those two games have in common is the grind.  Yes, there is wayyyy to much grind in BG.

 

I really wish people would stop this nostolgia stuff, and imprinting their likes on a current game and call it a spiritual successor of some other game, ignoring the fact that they are missing out on half of the purpose of the first game (in this case D:OS has as much story as a cave man drawing, and the dialogue is as good also).

[Bester]

Bester, and inventory system is simple compared to a pathing system.

http://arongranberg.com/astar/front

http://arongranberg.com/astar/features

Edited September 1, 2014 by Bester

[600lbpanther]

Bester, and inventory system is simple compared to a pathing system.  Pathing systems far closer to an AI than to an inventory system.

 

600lbs, D:OS is as much of a spiritual successor to BG as much as Diablo is a spiritual successor of BG.  The main thing both of those two games have in common is the grind.  Yes, there is wayyyy to much grind in BG.

 

I really wish people would stop this nostolgia stuff, and imprinting their likes on a current game and call it a spiritual successor of some other game, ignoring the fact that they are missing out on half of the purpose of the first game (in this case D:OS has as much story as a cave man drawing, and the dialogue is as good also).

 

divinity original sin Baldurs gate

 

Type that in to google.com for results on those who compare it to Baldur's Gate.

Your argument is not only with me, but with gaming websites and a gaming (Steam) community.

 

From the clunky animations to the convulated fight scenes to the pathetic visual "personlization" and "someone killed a bunch of people so apprehend" storylines... it's obvious that Pillars of Eternity is as much of a "spiritual successor" to baldur's gate 2 as baldur's gate 1 was (as of right now). 

 

4 months out from Dec. 31-14 people have not been overwhelmingly asking for it to be the "spiritual successor" as promised, as advertised, as sold...but as some kind of playable game that they can ascertain will end up a fun, playable game.  Er...you're right...unfair to say a game...some kind of inconsequential side quest.

 

Points that, to me, would be considered in the "Spiritual Successor to Baldur's Gate":

1)  Elements that can affect other elements like Divinity.

      - I.e. - Freeze hitting Water making Ice.

2)  Most objects can be destructible.

 

The only 'spiritual successor" happening here consists of the the beautiful 2D backgrounds and the memory of Baldur's Gate we were sold. 

[Panteleimon]

 

Points that, to me, would be considered in the "Spiritual Successor to Baldur's Gate":

1)  Elements that can affect other elements like Divinity.

      - I.e. - Freeze hitting Water making Ice.

2)  Most objects can be destructible.

 

 

 

 

 

Ahahahaha, WHAT?

 

That's like saying Jodorowsky's Dune film would have been a faithful adaptation of the book. Good to know Battlefield 4 is the long-awaited mega-selling Baldur's Gate 3.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Panteleimon

[Endrosz]

Points that, to me, would be considered in the "Spiritual Successor to Baldur's Gate":

1)  Elements that can affect other elements like Divinity.

      - I.e. - Freeze hitting Water making Ice.

2)  Most objects can be destructible.

 

He? Two things that were NOT in any of the Infinity Engines games, as requirement for a spiritual successor?

 

I can understand people who cling to every single little detail that was part of those games being disappointed. It is undeniable that some things were lost in transition, a few of them major. But asking for things that were never even considered in those games as features?

[Freshock]

Pillars of Eternity won't be for everyone, if you like Divinity: Original Sin better - play that instead. You might want to wait with judging it before it's released though, might turn out better than what you see from unfinished beta gameplay. I personally don't see much likeness in D:OS and Baldur's Gate, but people see different things and have different taste.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

The only 'spiritual successor" happening here consists of the the beautiful 2D backgrounds and the memory of Baldur's Gate we were sold. 

 

So you're not happy with PoE? I recall some of your posts were in the positive for this game, especially the game design. Why the turn around?

[600lbpanther]

 

The only 'spiritual successor" happening here consists of the the beautiful 2D backgrounds and the memory of Baldur's Gate we were sold. 

 

So you're not happy with PoE? I recall some of your posts were in the positive for this game, especially the game design. Why the turn around?

 

 

Thank-you Hiro-San,

 

It's nice when someone tries to understand you no matter how contentious the point.

Simply, I just am not having fun with Pillars of Eternity right now.  I purchased Divinity: Original Sin after my beta dissapointment (I purchased the collector's edition and my brother in-law is here-in-banned from playing anymore video games from my sister.  Hiro-san you want the 2nd key PM and let me know it's yours.) 

 

Hopefully I am wrong

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I have beta keys coming out of my ears. I've already played and still playing the Eternity beta, given away one key and still have another to give away. I might have more Eternity beta keys but not sure. With all the cross referencing with Eternity and Torment and Wateland. It's hard to keep track of so many. Same with additional keys for Wasteland and Wasteland 2 beta.

 

I do understand what you mean. I've always had reservations with aspects of the game design and hopefully the bug fixes and other tweaks Obsidian do to the game may improve the overall gameplay quality that some of us aren't enjoying at the moment.

 

Edit: Just gave away another Beta key for Eternity. If I have more, I'll mention it.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Zwiebelchen]

 

 

Pardon me?

Lvl 5-7 combat in Baldurs gate 1 / 2:

Fighters: Miss Miss CRIT DEATH ONE HIT KILL miss miss.

Mage: Casting cloud spell X and abusing the ai OR casting overpowered melf´s minor meteorids OR casting elemental damage spells and hoping for the next resting opportunity.

Rogue: Trying 5x to get into stealth mode, missing one of three sneak attacks OR doing lethal ONE HIT KILLS and then micro manage the hell out of them OR shortbow for minor damage.

WoW. So much fluff and flow.

 

Take off the nostalgia goggles please!

 

 

I agree.

 

Let's also hope that PoE will attract attention from the modding community. It's essential for a game like this to allow the user base to generate mods and fixes. 

 

I don't think I would have enjoyed replaying BG2 as much without the BG2 Fixpack. 

 

The BG2 Mods are awesome, and were needed so badly regarding combat.

 

But people not only have to take off their nostalgia goggles like Sensuki or how this guy is called wears them; they also have to accept: You don´t sell games because they have an awesome AI. You sell them despite of having a terrible AI. I mean, since 1996 AI in games made literally zero progress. NPC-enemies are still as stupid as they were in the early ninetees. Sometimes it seems different cause they are more heavily scripted. But that´s it.

 

Sad reality is, a clever AI is nothing that promotes a game in the current market situation.

 

 

There has been a lot of progress in terms of AI since 1996. You just have to look at real-time strategy games, not RPGs.

 

Starcraft II has probably the best AI I've ever seen. And that is for a game that is literally all about the multiplayer or the (almost completely hard-scripted) campaign. I still wonder why they even bothered to throw that much time and resources into developing a great player vs. cpu AI if 95% of the players never actually have to deal with it.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Zwiebelchen

[600lbpanther]

I have beta keys coming out of my ears. I've already played and still playing the Eternity beta, given away one key and still have another to give away. I might have more Eternity beta keys but not sure. With all the cross referencing with Eternity and Torment and Wateland. It's hard to keep track of so many. Same with additional keys for Wasteland and Wasteland 2 beta.

 

I do understand what you mean. I've always had reservations with aspects of the game design and hopefully the bug fixes and other tweaks Obsidian do to the game may improve the overall gameplay quality that some of us aren't enjoying at the moment.

Okay, entirely understood. If you do want a full game for Divinity: Original Sin let me know. I may have not explained it correctly in my previous post. The collectors edition gives you 2 keys. It might provide some ideas that we can harness in providing Obsidian some valueable feedback! PM if interested.

[Zansatsu]

 

 

 

Pardon me?

Lvl 5-7 combat in Baldurs gate 1 / 2:

Fighters: Miss Miss CRIT DEATH ONE HIT KILL miss miss.

Mage: Casting cloud spell X and abusing the ai OR casting overpowered melf´s minor meteorids OR casting elemental damage spells and hoping for the next resting opportunity.

Rogue: Trying 5x to get into stealth mode, missing one of three sneak attacks OR doing lethal ONE HIT KILLS and then micro manage the hell out of them OR shortbow for minor damage.

WoW. So much fluff and flow.

 

Take off the nostalgia goggles please!

 

 

I agree.

 

Let's also hope that PoE will attract attention from the modding community. It's essential for a game like this to allow the user base to generate mods and fixes. 

 

I don't think I would have enjoyed replaying BG2 as much without the BG2 Fixpack.

The BG2 Mods are awesome, and were needed so badly regarding combat.

 

But people not only have to take off their nostalgia goggles like Sensuki or how this guy is called wears them; they also have to accept: You don´t sell games because they have an awesome AI. You sell them despite of having a terrible AI. I mean, since 1996 AI in games made literally zero progress. NPC-enemies are still as stupid as they were in the early ninetees. Sometimes it seems different cause they are more heavily scripted. But that´s it.

 

Sad reality is, a clever AI is nothing that promotes a game in the current market situation.

 

There has been a lot of progress in terms of AI since 1996. You just have to look at real-time strategy games, not RPGs.

 

Starcraft II has probably the best AI I've ever seen. And that is for a game that is literally all about the multiplayer or the campaign. I still wonder why they even bothered to throw that much time and resources into developing a great player vs. cpu AI if 95% of the players never actually have to deal with it.

Whether you like Blizzard's games or not the one thing they never do is half ass it.

[mudd1]

Seeing four enemies in a room in the Dyrford ruins with your party at the door but they don't attack you because you're somehow out of their range. Even though they appear to be in direct line of sight to you and should see you. You throw a fireball and hit all four enemies but only two rush your party while the other two enemies just stand there half burnt. Presumably because those two are still 'just' out of range and can't see you. I don't know. That's just an assumption on my part. If it's true, then words fail me. You pull your party back so you fight those two rushing enemies, so you don't accidently trigger the other two who are standing there twiddling their thumbs. Kill those first two. Wait for your stamina to get back to full and edge close to the door again and fireball the other two guards. They'll probably have some health left but are no threat to your party at full stamina.

 

Isometric games don't tend to have a line of sight concept as such but rather a disc of sight, with or without taking obstacles into account. Why the enemies seem to have a smaller disc of sight than your party, I don't know.

 

Enemies only attacking one party member and ignoring the rest of your party. So you make sure enemies attack your beefiest tank while the rest of your party go to town on that enemy. Fights usually last 5-10 seconds. Then you back away to make sure you reset your encounter powers and then rush in and kill that second enemy.

 

You shouldn't be able to draw enemies one by one, I agree. But enemies only attacking one party member is pretty much the engagement system they explained in some detail. Also, it shouldn't work with multiple enemies except for fighters.

[archangel979]

Enemies didn't have smaller sight in IE games. To add to that, in IE games it was possible to pull enemies that were close to each other as well. I really don't want that to be the case in PoE as in 16 years developers should know how to make it better.

Edited September 1, 2014 by archangel979

[Karkarov]

Are you guys complaining a clearly still in progress beta isn't as good as a fully released game called Baldur's Gate 2 that has had almost a decade of patching and fan contributions to it again?  Could we at least wait for the backer beta to get it's first patch before we keep beating a dead horse?  This is a BETA, a REAL BETA.  This is what they are all like, get over it.

[khermann]

 

 

Me being reasonable and polite

A lot of words

I ddon't know what you're trying to accomplish here, is it backhanding me because i am a silly panicky civillian who can't hold their **** together "because battle is too scary for me!".. Or something? War nerd? What?

 

Or, are you just ejoying the sumgness of your smartness and breadth of experience, teaching me a valueable life lesson in How To Game?

 

Thanks for bith, either, but you don't need to worry about me, bro.

 

Go read my responses in this thread. I'm not being unreasonable, but plenty of people in this thread are. That I voiced concerns is one thing, but if you read all the words instead of stopping to reply to the first thing that you think you have such undeniably clever insight about, you might just get a better understanding of my position instead of a partial point that you felt you could turn in to THE argument because it is one you feel clever enough to defend and would enjoy doing so

But.. You know, different strokes. You have a goodun'.

 

I love the internet.

[khermann]

Are you guys complaining a clearly still in progress beta isn't as good as a fully released game called Baldur's Gate 2 that has had almost a decade of patching and fan contributions to it again? Could we at least wait for the backer beta to get it's first patch before we keep beating a dead horse? This is a BETA, a REAL BETA. This is what they are all like, get over it.

This response falls in to category #2. Thanks for your stunning insight.

So, you heard it, everyone, Karkarov said they're all like this and there is no cause for concern, or hell, ever discussing it.

 

Go home everyone,Karkarov has finally shown up with a ruling the in this thread and us.

 

He has a point, a really really difficult to understand point, but ima ask my mom to explain it to me.

Also, look up, do you see the sky or a ceiling? If you're drowning, you're probably in the shower... Now we need someone to save Karkarov.